Sheffield Forum
Your message here

Holocaust Denier Irving Freed

Home > General > General Discussions

Reply To Topic
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
20-12-2006, 23:45   #41
Heyesey
Registered User
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Total Posts: 12,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livewirex
You might be advised not to try to incite hatred against a certain prophet or it might prove your theory wrong, big style.

Nope. I can advocate violence against Jesus, Mohammed or Buddha as much as I want and will merely look like an idiot because they're all dead. (Or possibly immortal, and it would still be pointless...)

Inciting violence against people who *worship* any of them, is a whole different kettle of fish...
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 23:51   #42
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaFan
Bias is one thing, but a court did find that he'd deliberately manipulated source material in order to make his racist views seem more like historical fact. Surely once you've done that, you can't be taken seriously as a historian. Joan Peters would be another fine example.
There is an important distinction between being taken seriously as a historian and being taken to court for your views on historical events.

The Joan Peters case is indeed a good example. No reputable historian is likely to take Joan Peters seriously, as her 'From Time Immemorial' has been conclusively proven to be garbage. However, no one, to the best of my knowledge, has suggested that she be jailed for her views. The court of informed public opinion has condemned her (thanks in no small measure to the efforts of Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky) and this should suffice. Its a moot point as to whether Sheffield Library should still have this garbage on its shelves (I believe it still does) but I would not wish to ban it
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 00:19   #43
plekhanov
Registered User
plekhanov's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Total Posts: 11,114
Making it a crime to deny the Nazi holocaust is wrong not only because it's an unjustified restriction on free speech but also because it allows people to continue under the delusion that the Nazi holocaust was a unique event unparalleled in human history and somehow deserving of singling out above and beyond all others rather than one of a number of examples of mass ethnic cleansing in recent human history.

Such exceptionalism allows us to ignore the extent to which ethnic cleansing is a danger potentially lurking within pretty much any society rather than a one off event.

Last edited by plekhanov; 22-12-2006 at 02:28.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 00:55   #44
plekhanov
Registered User
plekhanov's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Total Posts: 11,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by angle20
I'm glad Irving has been released.

Legislation in this area is anachronistic, as Timothy Garton Ash argued in a recent article in The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...925401,00.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by VARB
Irving and the other holocaust deniers should not go to prison they should be allowed to debate their vile opinions with real historians then face public ridicule when shown to be liars and frauds , locking up these morons gives them the oxegeon of publicity as this case shows without destroying this growing myth .
Do you think that maybe your protestations against laws criminalising holocaust denial might be a little less hypocritical if you weren't active supporters of the BNP a party with policies to ban media criticism of it's racist and homophobic policies. And which indeed wants to ban programs such as say for example Eastenders, Doctor Who and Friends and pretty much all modern shows which deviate from your narrow world view?
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 12:49   #45
TeaFan
Registered User
TeaFan's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: beyond the Ultraworld
Total Posts: 4,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
There is an important distinction between being taken seriously as a historian and being taken to court for your views on historical events.

The Joan Peters case is indeed a good example. No reputable historian is likely to take Joan Peters seriously, as her 'From Time Immemorial' has been conclusively proven to be garbage. However, no one, to the best of my knowledge, has suggested that she be jailed for her views. The court of informed public opinion has condemned her (thanks in no small measure to the efforts of Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky) and this should suffice. Its a moot point as to whether Sheffield Library should still have this garbage on its shelves (I believe it still does) but I would not wish to ban it
Yeah, it's still there. I've been tempted to photocopy the Finkelstein essay and staple it inside.
_______
"It would be commercially unacceptable to include a statement that efficacy had not been demonstrated, as this would undermine the profile of paroxetine." - GlaxoSmithKline internal memo
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 13:56   #46
Livewirex
Registered User
Livewirex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Back of beyond
Total Posts: 651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyesey
Nope. I can advocate violence against Jesus, Mohammed or Buddha as much as I want and will merely look like an idiot because they're all dead. (Or possibly immortal, and it would still be pointless...)

Inciting violence against people who *worship* any of them, is a whole different kettle of fish...
That's not what you said
Quote Hessey "Actually you can, because it's impossible to incite hatred against someone who's already dead."

The word you used was "Hatred" which is the dangerous thing to do as i said previously.
_______
The last fight I had with the wife was my fault. My wife asked "What's on the TV?"
I said "Dust!"
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 14:31   #47
KenH
Registered User
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Total Posts: 4,395
I think it is right that places such as germany and Austria have such a law, although I am not entirely sure they should be able to apply it to a British Citizen. The Germans murdered millions of people and they shouldn't be allowed to forget that. If one of them decides to openly say that the Germans didn't commit these crimes, or that the camps were holiday camps, or similar nonsense then they should go to gaol.
_______
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the communist party.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 14:55   #48
angle20
Wide awake
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Out of the building
Total Posts: 3,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teabag
How about six million historical truths.
A reply I gave on a previous occasion (to Plain Talker):

Quote:
The 6 million figure has a life independent of empirical evidence. It first appeared in an article by Ben Hecht (a Jewish Hollywood script writer) in the February 1943 edition of Reader's Digest magazine. It thus pre-dates many of the purported events. The figure continues to be repeated today despite, for example, 3 million officially being lost from the Auschwitz death toll.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 14:57   #49
Tricky
Registered User
Tricky's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Stuck in the filing cabinet
Total Posts: 4,415
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
I think it is right that places such as germany and Austria have such a law, although I am not entirely sure they should be able to apply it to a British Citizen. The Germans murdered millions of people and they shouldn't be allowed to forget that. If one of them decides to openly say that the Germans didn't commit these crimes, or that the camps were holiday camps, or similar nonsense then they should go to gaol.
Just the Germans? I don't understand why people still regard the holocaust as as something that only the Germans were guilty of.

Which nation exterminated the highest proportion of their Jewish population and did it faster than anyone else? Yes, those fun loving, beer drinking, dope smoking, orange wearing, everybodies best mate, the Dutch.

Given the actions of the French, the Dutch and the Norwegians, amongst others, how can we say that we wouldn't have done the same and that the law should apply elsewhere but not here?
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 16:29   #50
Tony
Registered User
Tony's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Gone
Total Posts: 22,415
Send a message via MSN to Tony
What have the Dutch got to do with David Irving being locked up? What he said is obviously untrue, he broke the law in Austria, and he was sent to gaol for his crime.

... as many of his ilk keep insisting... "when in Rome".

The irony is killing me.
_______
It's the devil's advocaat innit
Otherwise, occasionally gone.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 16:41   #51
Teabag
Registered User
Teabag's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 1,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by angle20
A reply I gave on a previous occasion (to Plain Talker):
You dispute that six million Jews were murdered, you are unfortunately correct, the figure is higher. Since the opening up of the Soviet archives historians have realised that the original estimates of unarmed civilians murdered by the Nazis have been under estimates and tragically the figures are much higher.

About 6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[9]
1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000–200,000 Freemasons[11]
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[12]

9 "How many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust? How do we know? Do we have their names?," Yad Vashem (accessed June 8, 2005). A detailed breakdown of various estimates of the victims is available from the Online Library of the United States Holocaust Museum (accessed August 10, 2005)
10 Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era at the US Holocaust Museum
11 Freemasons for Dummies, by Christopher Hodapp, Wiley Publishing Inc., Indianapolis, 2005, p.85, sec. Hitler and the Nazi
12According to the United States Holocaust Museum .
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 16:56   #52
cgksheff
Registered User
cgksheff's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Total Posts: 22,387
It helps to quote sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Wiki is not a definitive source of factual information. You should follow up the references before accepting any statements.


(not a criticism ... just pointing out, like! )

Last edited by cgksheff; 21-12-2006 at 17:14.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 17:03   #53
Teabag
Registered User
Teabag's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 1,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgksheff
It helps to quote sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Wiki is not a definitive source of factual information. You should follow up the references before accepting any statements.
Concur.

I checked and quoted the the original sources Wicki used and the Holocaust Museum are a fairly reliable body.

These figures as stated are not accurate and as historians continue to work through many of the papers made available due to the dismantling of the Eastern block, the figures will be further revised. The opening up of these archives in recent years have caused some major revision on how we view the events of the thirties and forties...this is set to continue.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 18:03   #54
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teabag
You dispute that six million Jews were murdered, you are unfortunately correct, the figure is higher. Since the opening up of the Soviet archives historians have realised that the original estimates of unarmed civilians murdered by the Nazis have been under estimates and tragically the figures are much higher.

About 6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[9]
1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000–200,000 Freemasons[11]
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[12]

9 "How many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust? How do we know? Do we have their names?," Yad Vashem (accessed June 8, 2005). A detailed breakdown of various estimates of the victims is available from the Online Library of the United States Holocaust Museum (accessed August 10, 2005)
10 Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era at the US Holocaust Museum
11 Freemasons for Dummies, by Christopher Hodapp, Wiley Publishing Inc., Indianapolis, 2005, p.85, sec. Hitler and the Nazi
12According to the United States Holocaust Museum .
Ex-Soviet sources themselves have to be treated with a great deal of caution. The Soviets tended to include in their estimates of deaths attributable to the Nazis many other deaths attributable to themselves - including for example Soviet citizens and military personnel swallowed up in Stalin's purges. At Nuremberg, they even attributed the deaths of the Polish officers killed in the Katyn massacre to the Nazis, whereas we now know that they were killed by Beria's secret police.

Incidentally, is it not ironic that there is a Holocaust museum in the US (in Washington) but no museum anywhere in the US which commemorates the genocide of the Native Americans.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 18:32   #55
TeaFan
Registered User
TeaFan's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: beyond the Ultraworld
Total Posts: 4,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
There is an important distinction between being taken seriously as a historian and being taken to court for your views on historical events.
The case I refer to is not the Austrian case, but the Lipstadt libel case, which he initiated (and lost - sucker!)
_______
"It would be commercially unacceptable to include a statement that efficacy had not been demonstrated, as this would undermine the profile of paroxetine." - GlaxoSmithKline internal memo
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 19:16   #56
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaFan
The case I refer to is not the Austrian case, but the Lipstadt libel case, which he initiated (and lost - sucker!)
But on this thread we are discussing the court case and the legislation which resulted in Irving being jailed, not the Lipstadt case.

As for failed libel actions, there could well be a TV programme entitled 'When Libel Actions Go Wrong'. Oscar Wilde, Jonathon Atiken and Neil Hamilton would no doubt figure prominently, among many others.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 20:38   #57
angle20
Wide awake
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Out of the building
Total Posts: 3,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teabag
You dispute that six million Jews were murdered, you are unfortunately correct, the figure is higher. Since the opening up of the Soviet archives historians have realised that the original estimates of unarmed civilians murdered by the Nazis have been under estimates and tragically the figures are much higher.
I myself have only looked into issues concerning Auschwitz: which of course is only one of the Nazi camps, but it is regarded as the largest and most important. The Soviet archives to which you refer are not, in the case of Auschwitz at least, at all helpful to the case you are advancing. After the fall of Communism in 1989 a set of German 'Death Book' records, originally seized by the Russians, was handed over to the International Red Cross (IRC). After extrapolating for some missing periods the IRC estimated that around 135,000 prisoners died at Auschwitz. More on that in a moment, but let's just recap on a few Auschwitz numbers:

4 million - the number of deaths which, for several decades after WW2, were said to have occurred at Auschwitz

1.5 million - the figure given for the number of deaths following re-analysis and revision by the post-communist Polish authorities in 1995 (and inscribed on the plaques currently located at the Birkenau site)

1 million - the figure currently referred to on the Auschwitz museum official website

630,000 - the lower end of the range suggested by the leading Holocaustian scholar, Jean-Claude Pressac

135,000 - the number supported by original records, derived from Soviet archives.

So, for many years the world was led to believe that 4 million people were killed at Auschwitz. We now find that the records support 'only' 135,000 deaths. In fact, I'm fair-minded enough to appreciate that the 135,000 figure may not be the whole story. The discrepancy between this and the official museum (and Pressac's) figures may be attributable to unregistered prisoners being executed at the camp. So the true figure lies somewhere between 135,000 and 1 million.

What the foregoing shows, however, is the importance of historians being able openly to debate and argue over the facts and evidence. To add a contemporary note, one might add, as a sort of benchmark, that 655,000 people have recently lost their lives (according to a study published by 'The Lancet') in the pro-Israel war in Iraq.

With regard to Wikipedia, whilst it is a useful quick source of information on many topics, its entries need to be treated with caution on politically sensitive topics.
  Reply With Quote
21-12-2006, 21:44   #58
Teabag
Registered User
Teabag's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 1,337
Irving described all holocaust figures as a 'fairytale', which he later denied saying....fancy.

Remember it was Irving who sued the historian Lipstadt for calling him a 'holocaust denier'. The judge and jury agreed with Lipstadt and Irving through his own nazi arrogance became an official 'holocaust denier'.

When he was arrested in Austria, he wasnt on his way to a W.I. meeting, he was on his way to give a talk to a group of neo nazis, the authorities took the view of N.I.M.B.Y. and off to jail he went.

He did not offer the defence of, 'freedom of expression' at his trial, he did not conduct a robust defence of his 'personal freedom' but simply denied he ever said anything in the first place.
If he had stood up and told the truth, put down his marker for his beliefs then fair enough but he did not in the libel case nor did he in Austria.
  Reply With Quote
22-12-2006, 00:48   #59
happyhippy
Sláinte!
happyhippy's Avatar
 
Mod on the Other Side
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: In the distillery
Total Posts: 19,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
What have the Dutch got to do with David Irving being locked up? What he said is obviously untrue, he broke the law in Austria, and he was sent to gaol for his crime.

... as many of his ilk keep insisting... "when in Rome".

The irony is killing me.
Absolutely.
  Reply With Quote
22-12-2006, 01:42   #60
happyhippy
Sláinte!
happyhippy's Avatar
 
Mod on the Other Side
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: In the distillery
Total Posts: 19,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by angle20
I myself have only looked into issues concerning Auschwitz: which of course is only one of the Nazi camps, but it is regarded as the largest and most important. The Soviet archives to which you refer are not, in the case of Auschwitz at least, at all helpful to the case you are advancing. After the fall of Communism in 1989 a set of German 'Death Book' records, originally seized by the Russians, was handed over to the International Red Cross (IRC). After extrapolating for some missing periods the IRC estimated that around 135,000 prisoners died at Auschwitz. More on that in a moment, but let's just recap on a few Auschwitz numbers:

4 million - the number of deaths which, for several decades after WW2, were said to have occurred at Auschwitz

1.5 million - the figure given for the number of deaths following re-analysis and revision by the post-communist Polish authorities in 1995 (and inscribed on the plaques currently located at the Birkenau site)

1 million - the figure currently referred to on the Auschwitz museum official website

630,000 - the lower end of the range suggested by the leading Holocaustian scholar, Jean-Claude Pressac

135,000 - the number supported by original records, derived from Soviet archives.

So, for many years the world was led to believe that 4 million people were killed at Auschwitz. We now find that the records support 'only' 135,000 deaths. In fact, I'm fair-minded enough to appreciate that the 135,000 figure may not be the whole story. The discrepancy between this and the official museum (and Pressac's) figures may be attributable to unregistered prisoners being executed at the camp. So the true figure lies somewhere between 135,000 and 1 million.

What the foregoing shows, however, is the importance of historians being able openly to debate and argue over the facts and evidence. To add a contemporary note, one might add, as a sort of benchmark, that 655,000 people have recently lost their lives (according to a study published by 'The Lancet') in the pro-Israel war in Iraq.

With regard to Wikipedia, whilst it is a useful quick source of information on many topics, its entries need to be treated with caution on politically sensitive topics.
Encarta quotes Camp Commandant Rudolf Hoess (no umlauts I'm afraid) as stating a minimum of 2.5 million deaths at Auschwitz, never mind the other camps.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...Auschwitz.html
  Reply With Quote
Reply To Topic

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:14.
POSTS ON THIS FORUM ARE NOT ACTIVELY MONITORED
Click "Report Post" under any post which may breach our terms of use.
©2002-2017 Sheffield Forum | Powered by vBulletin ©2017

Nimbus Server