Sheffield Forum
Your message here

Holocaust Denier Irving Freed

Home > General > General Discussions

Reply To Topic
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
20-12-2006, 13:39   #1
Teabag
Registered User
Teabag's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 1,337
According to BBC news, David Irving who was sentenced to two years in an Austrian prison for denying the holocaust is to be released from prison on probation. Should he have been released or should the sentence been extended as some argued? Furthermore, is it time for Britain to have 'holocaust denial' legislation?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6196073.stm
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 13:47   #2
BasilRathbon
Registered User
BasilRathbon's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Fantasy Island
Total Posts: 15,093
Imprisoning someone for expressing an opinion sounds like the sort of thing Nazis would do.
_______
Wanna see Basil's vaguely interesting photos? Visit "Basil's Travels"

Wanna hear Basil's reasonably enjoyable music? Head for www.myspace.com/planetsoddingbliss.
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 13:48   #3
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
In my view he should never have been sentenced in the first place, because there should be no such law.

However wrong our opinions may be, we should have a right to hold and express them.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 13:55   #4
KJ_VENOM
Karaoke Master
KJ_VENOM's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Alive in Sheffield
Total Posts: 2,211
He shouldn't have been imprisoned for having an opinion, and as far as i can see he wasn't. he was jailed for stating as fact the the holocaust didnt happen against all the evidence that it did

as for his new crusade

Quote. He said he would urge an academic boycott of historians from Germany and Austria until the nations stopped jailing historians.

why does he want to boycott proper historians is it because he isn't one
_______
Andy Jay Karaoke Wednesday @ The Casbah, Thursday -Karaoke @ The Little Mester Dinnington, Fridays @ The Howard Hotel, City Centre, Sunday @ The Botantical. Eccalsall Road Karaoke now upgraded to 100,000+ songs
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:04   #5
Till Man
Registered User
Till Man's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 482
I disagree with just about everything the man says and stands for, but would defend to the end his right to say and stand for what he likes.
To imprison someone for their beliefs, however mis-judged and wrong, is an infringement of their human rights.
_______
Did anyone else feel that Mel Gibson's remake of the classic Life of
Brian wasn't anywhere near as funny as the original?
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:04   #6
Teabag
Registered User
Teabag's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 1,337
These are the countries that currently have 'holocaust denial' legislation
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

Should Britain join this list?

I feel uneasy about imprisoning people for expressing their beliefs...although curiously at the trial Irving denied saying any of the things he was accused of saying ...that says it all for me.

There are 6 to 9 million people in the twentieth century who were unable to voice their opinion. People such as Irving will never again go round saying that the holocaust did not exist...that is the point of the legislation. You cannot make you grubby living on the backs of six million unarmed men, women and children who were murdered in cold blood. If you do, then if proved so...off to prison. That seems morally justified to me.
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:13   #7
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
He shouldn't have been imprisoned for having an opinion, and as far as i can see he wasn't. he was jailed for stating as fact the the holocaust didnt happen against all the evidence that it did

as for his new crusade

Quote. He said he would urge an academic boycott of historians from Germany and Austria until the nations stopped jailing historians.

why does he want to boycott proper historians is it because he isn't one
I think we ought to be careful though about setting too fine a distinction between 'proper' historians and the rest. To give an example, during the Cold War the historian Robert Conquest wrote several works about the persecution and mass murder of many millions of Soviet citizens (not least in Ukraine) during the Stalin years. Many of the statistics and estimates of numbers he cited were regarded as gross exaggerations by many other historians (in particular, those of leftist persuasion). However, since the end of the Cold War, further evidence has come to light which proves that Conquest was right all along.

I hasten to add that I am not drawing any parallels here with the disputes about the Holocaust, but am instead counselling caution in relation to the putative distinction between 'proper' historians and the rest.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:18   #8
LibertyBell
Registered User
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: The Valley
Total Posts: 4,104
I hate to write anything in support of this disgusting man but no, there is no moral or human rights justification for locking him up. What purpose does it serve? He ain't gonna change his mind is he?

OTOH he knew the law when he did what he did and got what was coming to him.
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:20   #9
Livewirex
Registered User
Livewirex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Back of beyond
Total Posts: 651
He should never have been imprisoned. Stupidity is not a crime in my book, maybe a little psychiatric help would be more fitting.
_______
The last fight I had with the wife was my fault. My wife asked "What's on the TV?"
I said "Dust!"
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:21   #10
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teabag
These are the countries that currently have 'holocaust denial' legislation
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

Should Britain join this list?

I feel uneasy about imprisoning people for expressing their beliefs...although curiously at the trial Irving denied saying any of the things he was accused of saying ...that says it all for me.

There are 6 to 9 million people in the twentieth century who were unable to voice their opinion. People such as Irving will never again go round saying that the holocaust did not exist...that is the point of the legislation. You cannot make you grubby living on the backs of six million unarmed men, women and children who were murdered in cold blood. If you do, then if proved so...off to prison. That seems morally justified to me.
If you play this numbers game, then you would have to add to the total you cite the millions of Armenians, Soviet citizens, Chinese, Cambodians, Rwandans, among many other ethnic groups, slaughtered in the 20th century. Our study of history would become another branch of law. Moreover, the countries which have this legislation tend to have authoritarian traditions of one kind or another, involving various restrictions on free speech. I don't think we ought to follow them down this path.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:21   #11
KJ_VENOM
Karaoke Master
KJ_VENOM's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Alive in Sheffield
Total Posts: 2,211
whatever his reasons for saying the holocaust didnt happen( nazi sympathiser, anti semetic or any of the other reasons) he stated it as fact. not as an opinion

this is not two academics arguing over what killed off the dinosaurs where they both have evidence to back up their points of views, this is something that has happened in living memory some of the people that lived through this are still alive, when the allied forces libetrated places like Auschwitz had film cameras that showed the crematoriums that also showed the shower houses and Zyclon B gas that was used to murder innocent people for nothing other than being jewish, homosexual or not one of the 'master race'
the evidence that the holocaust actually happened is overwhelming

the laws in the countries named are there to make sure people who have thoughts of painting the nazi regime as harmless are not able to

i would like to see this country have this law
_______
Andy Jay Karaoke Wednesday @ The Casbah, Thursday -Karaoke @ The Little Mester Dinnington, Fridays @ The Howard Hotel, City Centre, Sunday @ The Botantical. Eccalsall Road Karaoke now upgraded to 100,000+ songs
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:25   #12
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
whatever his reasons for saying the holocaust didnt happen( nazi sympathiser, anti semetic or any of the other reasons) he stated it as fact. not as an opinion
You appear to have a quite touching faith in the distinction between 'fact' and 'opinion'.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:26   #13
jinnertomcat
Registered User
jinnertomcat's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Probably stuck in the office
Total Posts: 452
KJ_VENOM
Registered User


Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: shiregreen
Posts: 775
Status: Online
whatever his reasons for saying the holocaust didnt happen( nazi sympathiser, anti semetic or any of the other reasons) he stated it as fact. not as an opinion


Using your logic, if I state as a fact that the sun is made out of raspberry jelly, then I should go to prison.
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:33   #14
KJ_VENOM
Karaoke Master
KJ_VENOM's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Alive in Sheffield
Total Posts: 2,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnertomcat

Using your logic, if I state as a fact that the sun is made out of raspberry jelly, then I should go to prison.
no, actually an opinion like that wouldn't cause any offence to people, as i am fairly sure that such an opinion could not be used to de-villify people such as the Austrian born dark hair leader of the so called 'master race' and his evil regime

but the sun made of rasberry jelly just made me smile and think where could i get a slice of toast big enough
_______
Andy Jay Karaoke Wednesday @ The Casbah, Thursday -Karaoke @ The Little Mester Dinnington, Fridays @ The Howard Hotel, City Centre, Sunday @ The Botantical. Eccalsall Road Karaoke now upgraded to 100,000+ songs
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:34   #15
Livewirex
Registered User
Livewirex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Back of beyond
Total Posts: 651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnertomcat
KJ_VENOM
Registered User


Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: shiregreen
Posts: 775
Status: Online
whatever his reasons for saying the holocaust didnt happen( nazi sympathiser, anti semetic or any of the other reasons) he stated it as fact. not as an opinion


Using your logic, if I state as a fact that the sun is made out of raspberry jelly, then I should go to prison.
Careful my friend there are some on here that believe every thing they read. Mind you if it was strawberry jelly i would be building a rocket ship as we speak.
_______
The last fight I had with the wife was my fault. My wife asked "What's on the TV?"
I said "Dust!"
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:36   #16
angle20
Wide awake
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Out of the building
Total Posts: 3,089
I'm glad Irving has been released.

Legislation in this area is anachronistic, as Timothy Garton Ash argued in a recent article in The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...925401,00.html

Quote:
No one can legislate historical truth. In so far as historical truth can be established at all, it must be found by unfettered historical research, with historians arguing over the evidence and the facts, testing and disputing each other's claims without fear of prosecution or persecution.
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:37   #17
BasilRathbon
Registered User
BasilRathbon's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Fantasy Island
Total Posts: 15,093
You name any event in history and there'll be someone who claims it never happened, regardless of any evidence. You only have to look at this thread to see what I mean......................
_______
Wanna see Basil's vaguely interesting photos? Visit "Basil's Travels"

Wanna hear Basil's reasonably enjoyable music? Head for www.myspace.com/planetsoddingbliss.
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:37   #18
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
no, actually an opinion like that wouldn't cause any offence to people, as i am fairly sure that such an opinion could not be used to de-villify people such as the Austrian born dark hair leader of the so called 'master race' and his evil regime

but the sun made of rasberry jelly just made me smile and think where could i get a slice of toast big enough
But many opinions cause offence. If we used this as a criterion for placing restrictions on freedom of expression, we may as well say goodbye to the notion of a free society.
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:38   #19
GabbleRatcht
Registered User
GabbleRatcht's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Could be anywhere, honestly
Total Posts: 1,447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Till Man
I disagree with just about everything the man says and stands for, but would defend to the end his right to say and stand for what he likes.
To imprison someone for their beliefs, however mis-judged and wrong, is an infringement of their human rights.
I sort of agree with the freedom of speach aspect. But we have been given this right due to the bravery of people that fought against people that would seek to stop it.

However I say 'sort of' due to the fact that if you let some speak, and others believe, you can quite easily end up with a system where no one is allowed to speak openly.

Hitler, Stalin etc.

I defend my right to speak openly but there are regimes where you can't. I've sat in a hotel room in China watching BBC 24, and as soon as an item about China appears the transmission is stopped. As soon as the item has finished, it starts again. You can't get the BBC website in China.

How do you decide to allow someone to speak if their opinion will remove the right of others to speak?

Bit of a quandary that one
_______
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.
Richard P. Feynman
  Reply With Quote
20-12-2006, 14:39   #20
LordChaverly
Registered User
LordChaverly's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chavteau Whirlow
Total Posts: 6,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by angle20
I'm glad Irving has been released.

Legislation in this area is anachronistic, as Timothy Garton Ash argued in a recent article in The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...925401,00.html
At last, there is something I agree with Garton Ash about. Miracles do happen!
_______
The 'soothing voice of reason'
  Reply With Quote
Reply To Topic

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:15.
POSTS ON THIS FORUM ARE NOT ACTIVELY MONITORED
Click "Report Post" under any post which may breach our terms of use.
©2002-2017 Sheffield Forum | Powered by vBulletin ©2017

Nimbus Server