Sheffield Forum
Your message here

How do Sheffield road planners get it so wrong?

Home > Sheffield > Sheffield News & Discussions

Reply To Topic
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
21-09-2017, 12:55   #41
Planner1
Registered User
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: S10
Total Posts: 8,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
You can have it both ways of course, they're called give way junctions. Or of course the roundabout.

You could be correct, perhaps for some reason they made Halifax Road a 40, and they made Netherthorpe Road a 40, but the section between, that at the time went through only industrial areas, they actively decided to make that a 30 zone, a wide, dual carriageway access to the city from the north 30 zone.
I'm not sure which would be worse, forgetting to apply for the 40 zone, or deliberately making it a 30 for no good reason.
Councils have to build to design standards which are advised by Government. There are criteria for where a give way junction, stop line, a roundabout or traffic signals are appropriate. Signals are provided because they are the appropriate measure in that location.

Do you seriously think that significant streams (not just the odd vehicle) of traffic can carry out right turns across busy dual carriageway roads safely and efficiently on give ways?

Roundabouts are ok where flows are pretty even. When they are tidal, as on a ring road, they are not so good and you often see them having traffic signals to break up flows so other approaches can actually get onto the roundabout. Roundabouts are less space efficient than signalised junctions. Roundabouts aren't good at providing adequate pedestrian crossing facilities where pedestrians want to cross.

Regarding your complaints about replacing underpasses with surface level crossings, ask a few pedestrians which they prefer, particularly in the hours of darkness. No good having an underpass which people won't use for a good part of the time and where they endanger themselves by jumping barriers to get across the road at surface level.

And lastly, they don't choose speed limits for "no good reason". There is always a good reason at the time it is designed. For any new road, a primary consideration is what the speed limit is going to be. It affects the way you design the road layout and it's infrastructure (lighting, barriers, signals etc), so you need to know at the outset.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 13:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
The council do nothing to make walking, cycling or any public transport an alternative. The fact that alternatives exist doesn't mean you can credit the council with encouraging their use.
This, in common with a lot of the other stuff you are spouting is utter nonsense.


SCC's 2017/18 capital programme features the following spend on projects:
Accessibility improvements (Walking) - 1.5m
Cycling - 3.9m
Public Transport Improvements - 4.6m

That's just in one year.

To suggest they do nothing is plainly ridiculous.
_______
Planner1's views are his own and do not reflect those of his employers, past or present.
  Reply With Quote
21-09-2017, 13:46   #42
Annie Bynnol
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Total Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Who is it a barrier to though? Most of Penistone Rd doesn't run through residential areas. You rarely see pedestrians near it, why would they be, walking from Upperthorpe to Neepsend perhaps? Or Hillsborough to Shirecliffe?.
Free flowing traffic is better for the environment and everyone involved.
The replies are car centred to the point that you still miss the point about Penistone Road.
Yes it is a dual carriageway.
But it cannot be an expressway if was it would act as a barrier to traffic joining and crossing. This is mostly cars and a significant proportion of which are travelling to/from the very densely populated Fulwood/Crosspool/Crookes/Walkley area and the North East, East Sheffield, Motorway, Don Valley, Rotherham etc.
Because there are pedestrian crossings at the reduced number of road junctions does not indicate that they were built because the council want you to walk, in fact all/nearly(?) are not pedestrian activated and are part of the cycle which enables to join/cross Penistone Road.
  Reply With Quote
21-09-2017, 17:03   #43
Cyclone
Registered User
Cyclone's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wadlsey
Total Posts: 68,389
Well given that I spend more time on my bike than I do driving perhaps it's not my bias that is the problem here...

In reality PR travels at 40mph, and sometimes faster. If you drove on it you'd be aware of this. Traffic slows at the speed camera site, and then speeds up again immediately.


I'm confused by the cross traffic you're identifying though. Fulwood? Seriously. So they've driven through Broomhill and upperthorpe have they? In order to go where? East Sheffield, so basically the Northern General, and that's about it.
Nobody crosses PR to head to the motorway, they join it and either go North out of the city using it, or to the inner RR in order to reach the parkway to go south.

You appear to be grasping at straws as to why it's a 30 zone, particularly given that the limit is routinely ignored by about 90% of the traffic.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 17:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Planner1 View Post
C
This, in common with a lot of the other stuff you are spouting is utter nonsense.


SCC's 2017/18 capital programme features the following spend on projects:
Accessibility improvements (Walking) - 1.5m
Cycling - 3.9m
Public Transport Improvements - 4.6m

That's just in one year.

To suggest they do nothing is plainly ridiculous.
So what has 3.9m been spent on with regards to cycling this year? I'm fascinated.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 17:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Planner1 View Post
Councils have to build to design standards which are advised by Government. There are criteria for where a give way junction, stop line, a roundabout or traffic signals are appropriate. Signals are provided because they are the appropriate measure in that location.

Do you seriously think that significant streams (not just the odd vehicle) of traffic can carry out right turns across busy dual carriageway roads safely and efficiently on give ways?
No I don't. But there are traffic lights at minor side roads which turn left on DDW, side roads where the number of cars can be counted on 1 hand for 10's of minutes and which have a pointless green cycle multiple times despite having no traffic present.
Quote:

Roundabouts are ok where flows are pretty even. When they are tidal, as on a ring road, they are not so good and you often see them having traffic signals to break up flows so other approaches can actually get onto the roundabout. Roundabouts are less space efficient than signalised junctions. Roundabouts aren't good at providing adequate pedestrian crossing facilities where pedestrians want to cross.

Regarding your complaints about replacing underpasses with surface level crossings, ask a few pedestrians which they prefer, particularly in the hours of darkness. No good having an underpass which people won't use for a good part of the time and where they endanger themselves by jumping barriers to get across the road at surface level.

And lastly, they don't choose speed limits for "no good reason". There is always a good reason at the time it is designed. For any new road, a primary consideration is what the speed limit is going to be. It affects the way you design the road layout and it's infrastructure (lighting, barriers, signals etc), so you need to know at the outset.
We both know that the A57 limit was reduced despite the SCC arranged report which said that there was no reason to do so.
_______
Ask yourself, what would Chuck Norris do?
Youtube videos, snowboarding, climbing, bad drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmn...qpXEZMGnJHf3Wg
  Reply With Quote
21-09-2017, 20:08   #44
Annie Bynnol
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Total Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
...

I'm confused by the cross traffic you're identifying though. Fulwood? Seriously. So they've driven through Broomhill and upperthorpe have they? In order to go where? East Sheffield, so basically the Northern General, and that's about it.
Nobody crosses PR to head to the motorway, they join it and either go North out of the city using it, or to the inner RR in order to reach the parkway to go south.

.
Maybe you would be less confused if your view was clouded by the perspective of you own journey, I did say "to/from" and its no good ignoring "etc." and "joining".
There are no major crossroads on Penistone Road so the traffic flow must join and then cross one or both carriageways if they need to.

From our experience of traffic congestion and living in S10 our options for M1 north and south is joining PR at Albert Terrace Road (Halifax or Rutland Road for M1 north, Shalesmoor/Parkway for M1 South. Rutland Road also provides the best route in the direction of NGH, Don Valley, Brightside, Meadowhall Rotherham (and IKEA). Their is of course a counter flow in the other direction from East and North East Sheffield to the University(parts) schools (inc.5 secondary), 5 hospitals, offices etc in S10.

These journeys are now much easier because of Supertram - a puzzle to sleep on?
  Reply With Quote
21-09-2017, 20:19   #45
hackey lad
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2011
Total Posts: 1,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by niallzi View Post
As the fourth (fifth or sixth practically) biggest city in the country we have two 'A' roads, an inner ring road and half an outer ring road.

its our topography, hills make it so difficult to have a road infrastructure like Leeds or Manchester.
Whys that ? Cannot cars go up or down hills ?
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 07:54   #46
Cyclone
Registered User
Cyclone's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wadlsey
Total Posts: 68,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie Bynnol View Post
Maybe you would be less confused if your view was clouded by the perspective of you own journey, I did say "to/from" and its no good ignoring "etc." and "joining".
You did say "to and from" yet you can't explain why those journeys might take place or how common they might be.
Quote:
There are no major crossroads on Penistone Road so the traffic flow must join and then cross one or both carriageways if they need to.
There's the roundabout at Leppings Lane, and the roundabout at Shalesmoor. There's about 2 miles between them with only 2 (majorish) roads heading towards the West, both of which as you say require joining PR for a few metres before turning off it again.

My own journey obviously informs my opinion, but I can see other traffic.
How often do you actually use this road to have an informed opinion yourself?

Quote:

From our experience of traffic congestion and living in S10 our options for M1 north and south is joining PR at Albert Terrace Road (Halifax or Rutland Road for M1 north, Shalesmoor/Parkway for M1 South. Rutland Road also provides the best route in the direction of NGH, Don Valley, Brightside, Meadowhall Rotherham (and IKEA). Their is of course a counter flow in the other direction from East and North East Sheffield to the University(parts) schools (inc.5 secondary), 5 hospitals, offices etc in S10.

These journeys are now much easier because of Supertram - a puzzle to sleep on?
I use Rutland Rd sometimes, but I'd say that going down DDW and then through Attercliffe is the quicker route most of the time, which wouldn't require you to cross PR, only to join it.

But given that you join at ATR, a traffic light controlled junction, how do you think that justifies the 30 limit? Given that most people speed up to 40 immediately after that camera anyway why do you think a 40 limit would be wrong?
_______
Ask yourself, what would Chuck Norris do?
Youtube videos, snowboarding, climbing, bad drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmn...qpXEZMGnJHf3Wg
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 09:06   #47
Annie Bynnol
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Total Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
You did say "to and from" yet you can't explain why those journeys might take place or how common they might be.
There's the roundabout at Leppings Lane...
You ask me how often I use this road.
More often than someone who says:
"There's the roundabout at Leppings Lane..." Gone in 2014.


You say I can't explain why those journeys might take place or how common they might be.
I will repeat my explanation:
"Rutland Road also provides the best route in the direction of NGH, Don Valley, Brightside, Meadowhall Rotherham (and IKEA). Their is of course a counter flow in the other direction from East and North East Sheffield to the University(parts) schools (inc.5 secondary), 5 hospitals, offices etc in S10."

You ask "How often do you actually use this road to have an informed opinion yourself?"
Every time I go to the NGH via Herries or Rutland Road, Sheffield College, Oughtibridge, Shiregreen, Brightside, Rotherham, Meadowhall, Meadowhall Station, M1 North. At random times between 7am and 8pm.

I travel by car, bicycle, H1,97,98 and 38 buses and on foot between Sheffield College, Hillsborough Park, Hillsborough Corner, Morrisons etc.

You ask why a 40 mph limit is too high.
Right hand filtering traffic slower than left hand lane.
Reduced traffic flow because of standing waves caused by rapid deceleration.
Running lights at 40 is more dangerous than at 30.
Mixed traffic behaviour encourages lane hopping and undertaking which is more dangerous at a higher speed. More?
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 09:12   #48
cgksheff
Registered User
cgksheff's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Total Posts: 22,528
Why is this stretch any different from many other stretches of the ring road that have 40mph traffic lights, filters, junctions, roundabouts etc.
_______
The 'avatar' that you see with the SF letters and the circle (regardless of colours) has copyright established since 2004.
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 09:23   #49
smithy266
Registered User
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Unstone Green
Total Posts: 4,299
Status: Online
Quote:
Originally Posted by haddy View Post
This isn't being fully paid for by the council but the developers of the retail park which is why it is being redone due to increased traffic
The clue is in the word "Planning" obviously a lack of it!
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 20:55   #50
Bob Arctor
Registered User
Bob Arctor's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Total Posts: 1,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
You're right in that I haven't provided any proof. But you're wrong if you think that makes it an opinion, I've clearly made statements that I belief to be factual.
Christ, AJ Ayer must be spinning in his grave.
_______
If I'd known it was harmless, I would have killed it myself

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 21:33   #51
bazjea
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: HIllsborough
Total Posts: 2,348
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
You're right in that I haven't provided any proof. But you're wrong if you think that makes it an opinion, I've clearly made statements that I belief to be factual.

You certainly have got it wrong, about a long gone roundabout
at Leppings Lane
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 22:42   #52
Penistone999
Registered User
Penistone999's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: In The Countryside
Total Posts: 8,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Planner1 View Post
That's because they kept the side roads open, as they were criticised for closing them off in the past.

You can't have it both ways..
Why do you have to have lights to control side roads ? You dont .
  Reply With Quote
22-09-2017, 23:08   #53
Andy C
Registered User
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Total Posts: 8,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penistone999 View Post
When you have a council that is so openly Anti Car , what else do you expect.
I don't think they are anti car given they do things that mess up efficient running of public transport too.

I think they just don't really get transport. Well at least the politician types don't anyway, there are probably good professional planners in both the council and SYPTE despairing...
  Reply With Quote
23-09-2017, 15:52   #54
Arthur Ritus
Registered User
Arthur Ritus's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Wadsley Bridge
Total Posts: 235
Clay wheels lane sums it up. A traffic light in someone's garden, ok theres a block of 4 houses that use that drive but really

About 30 years a go my old dad whilst driving on Penistone road used to say he wished he had shares in the traffic light company as there were so many springing up. There must be about 10 times as many now, it really is ridiculous.
_______
The truth I only wish, are all fishermen liars or do all liars fish?
  Reply With Quote
23-09-2017, 16:23   #55
Puggie
Registered User
Puggie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2017
Location: right-of-centre
Total Posts: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26b-6 View Post
How do Sheffield road planners get it so wrong?
Because they're from Sheffield?... *hides*
  Reply With Quote
23-09-2017, 16:27   #56
darylslinn
Registered User
darylslinn's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Exiled in Rotherham
Total Posts: 535
I also believe that traffic lights have a psychological effect on drivers.... you come to a junction where the lights are out and you will normally find drivers being more cautious and courteous in letting others out at the junction.
Park Square roundabout always felt like a better place to drive when the lights were out.
_______
Regards
Daryl.
  Reply With Quote
23-09-2017, 16:33   #57
bazjea
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: HIllsborough
Total Posts: 2,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Ritus View Post
Clay wheels lane sums it up. A traffic light in someone's garden, ok theres a block of 4 houses that use that drive but really

About 30 years a go my old dad whilst driving on Penistone road used to say he wished he had shares in the traffic light company as there were so many springing up. There must be about 10 times as many now, it really is ridiculous.
It's not just 4 houses though. It is the entrance to Niagra ground and Sheffield
police sport and social club!
  Reply With Quote
25-09-2017, 09:03   #58
Planner1
Registered User
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: S10
Total Posts: 8,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penistone999 View Post
When you have a council that is so openly Anti Car , what else do you expect.
Clearly not everyone agrees with you. Sheffield has just been found to be in the top three of the UK's most car friendly cities: https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-articl...ties-in-the-uk
_______
Planner1's views are his own and do not reflect those of his employers, past or present.
  Reply With Quote
25-09-2017, 10:15   #59
Jonny5
Registered User
Jonny5's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Total Posts: 3,205
The car is outmoded for cities but central government won't help with mass transit outside of their own little bubble-London.
_______
Hell yes I'm tough enough!
  Reply With Quote
25-09-2017, 18:02   #60
Jeffrey Shaw
Mr
 
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Sheffield
Total Posts: 14,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Planner1 View Post
Clearly not everyone agrees with you. Sheffield has just been found to be in the top three of the UK's most car friendly cities: https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-articl...ties-in-the-uk
I've read the article but I can't see any sample size, confidence levels, etc.
And there's no factoring-in of road planning there, anyway.
  Reply With Quote
Reply To Topic

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:07.
POSTS ON THIS FORUM ARE NOT ACTIVELY MONITORED
Click "Report Post" under any post which may breach our terms of use.
©2002-2017 Sheffield Forum | Powered by vBulletin ©2017

Nimbus Server