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19-09-2006, 09:49   #21
El-Mariachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think that we should bear in mind that Israels enemies are quite happy to fire any sort of munition that can lay their hands on at any civilian target and they couldn't care less if it explodes in a school or an army barracks.

The Israelis are also subject to suicide bombers on buses who target women and children. What difference is there between firing a bomb that leaves unexploded munitions behind and firing rockets at civilian targets?
So were Israeli's through their actions fighting only Hizbollah ?
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19-09-2006, 10:23   #22
KenH
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Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
So were Israeli's through their actions fighting only Hizbollah ?
Hizholla is a terrorist organisation which was ignoring the sovereign government of Lebanon and firing rockets at civilian Israeli targets. The lebanese army could have attacked Hizbolla and then Israel wouldn't have got involved. If we were attacked by terrorists who fired rockets at Britain from France and France did nothing then what you would do? If those rockets hit your street and your friends then would you suggest we have a resolution in the UN or that we bomb the terrorists?
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19-09-2006, 10:38   #23
4U2NV
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Originally Posted by KenH
Hizholla is a terrorist organisation
Incorrect only the US, Israel and Canada think it is.
Every other member in the UN thinks not.
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19-09-2006, 10:45   #24
El-Mariachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
Hizholla is a terrorist organisation which was ignoring the sovereign government of Lebanon and firing rockets at civilian Israeli targets. The lebanese army could have attacked Hizbolla and then Israel wouldn't have got involved. If we were attacked by terrorists who fired rockets at Britain from France and France did nothing then what you would do? If those rockets hit your street and your friends then would you suggest we have a resolution in the UN or that we bomb the terrorists?
They fired rockets into Israeli cities AFTER Israel started bombing Lebanon.
Terrorist ? They've got elected members in the Lebanese cabinet.

Oh please dont compare Israel to us!

Its a simple question I asked, why are you finding it sooooo difficult ?
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19-09-2006, 10:56   #25
KenH
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Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
Oh please dont compare Israel to us!
What do you mean by "us". Are you saying that you are a member of this terrorist organisation?
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19-09-2006, 10:57   #26
El-Mariachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
What do you mean by "us". Are you saying that you are a member of this terrorist organisation?
us as in Britain!
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19-09-2006, 10:59   #27
KenH
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Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
us as in Britain!
So you are offended that I might compare Israel to the UK. This is because we are lucky to have peaceful neighbours at the moment. In the event that we had terrorists on the borders, as Israel does, then you might not be so keen to simply let them get on with firing rockets at us. The last time an enemy fired rockets at London we firebombed their cities and they stopped doing it.
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19-09-2006, 11:14   #28
El-Mariachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
So you are offended that I might compare Israel to the UK. This is because we are lucky to have peaceful neighbours at the moment. In the event that we had terrorists on the borders, as Israel does, then you might not be so keen to simply let them get on with firing rockets at us. The last time an enemy fired rockets at London we firebombed their cities and they stopped doing it.
We've had terrorists, and we didn't firebomb dublin or destroy the infrastructure of the Irish republic.

How you can say that Israel were "targetting" Hezbollah by destroying a whole nation is beyond me!
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19-09-2006, 11:30   #29
KenH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
We've had terrorists, and we didn't firebomb dublin or destroy the infrastructure of the Irish republic.
We used artillery in the streets of dublin in (I think) 1917 when it was more like open warfare. In more recent terrorist attacks the Irish terrorists have been hidden in the community and also opposed by Dublin. If the IRA had some into the open and had not been opposed by Dublin then things would have been different. This is far removed from Israel where we have terrorists who have been supplied with rockets by foreign powers and who then fire them at civilian targets. There was no other option open to Israel other than destroying those rocket launchers. In doing so they caused other problems and also destroyed any infrastructure targets that were likely to aid the terrorists, particularly the movement of those terrorists. If you think about this for a moment, it makes perfect sense, even if it is horrific. The terrorists fire rockets and then, like all artillery, they attempt to run away before they are themselves attacked (this is because anti-battery radar will be able to pinpoint their location). It is necessary to prevent their movement by destroying bridges, attacking vehicles, and by generally removing the infrastructure used to site and aim them.

At the end of the day, the terrorists could have stopped firing rockets into Israel and thinsg wouldn't have been as bad as they were. Instead, they carried on and then Israel caused terrible death and destruction in order to stop them.
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19-09-2006, 11:40   #30
mr chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
They fired rockets into Israeli cities AFTER Israel started bombing Lebanon.
Terrorist ? They've got elected members in the Lebanese cabinet.

Oh please dont compare Israel to us!

Its a simple question I asked, why are you finding it sooooo difficult ?
Er, no, they'd been firing rocket into Israel for quite some time.

Israel isn't squeaky clean, but neither is it the evil monster that the western media (well, the BBC) paints it to be. Israel is a sovereign nation and the abduction of two soldiers from within the Israeli borders (disputed as they may be, but did they actually ever get all the land they were promised? no!) is technically an act of war.

War is never a pretty thing, and yes, there are civilian casualties. I can't say I'm a great fan of the carnage, but the general feeling seems to make Lebanon out to be some poor innocent victim.

Has anyone ever noticed how the news service never actually gives you both sides of the story?

If you were surrounded by nations several times your size, all calling for the destruction of your country, wouldn't your first priority be to protect your country? Conventions and accords aside, Israel is under attack on a daily basis from extremists and terrorists, the US isn't as wonderfully pro Israel as you'd think, especially with politicians such as Condolleeza Rice sticking their beaks in.

As for the so-called "apartheid" in places like Jerusalem. If there was apartheid, then how can the Palestinians get onto Israeli buses to blow them up?
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19-09-2006, 11:43   #31
El-Mariachi
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Originally Posted by mr_chris
Er, no, they'd been firing rocket into Israel for quite some time.

Israel isn't squeaky clean, but neither is it the evil monster that the western media (well, the BBC) paints it to be. Israel is a sovereign nation and the abduction of two soldiers from within the Israeli borders (disputed as they may be, but did they actually ever get all the land they were promised? no!) is technically an act of war.

War is never a pretty thing, and yes, there are civilian casualties. I can't say I'm a great fan of the carnage, but the general feeling seems to make Lebanon out to be some poor innocent victim.

Has anyone ever noticed how the news service never actually gives you both sides of the story?

If you were surrounded by nations several times your size, all calling for the destruction of your country, wouldn't your first priority be to protect your country? Conventions and accords aside, Israel is under attack on a daily basis from extremists and terrorists, the US isn't as wonderfully pro Israel as you'd think, especially with politicians such as Condolleeza Rice sticking their beaks in.

As for the so-called "apartheid" in places like Jerusalem. If there was apartheid, then how can the Palestinians get onto Israeli buses to blow them up?
How many times has Lebanon invaded Israel ?
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19-09-2006, 12:15   #32
KJ_VENOM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
ABIDE BY INTERNATIONAL NORMS AND TREATIES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS EXPECTED TO !
hizbollah dont abide by international treaties israel dont use suicide bombers instead they attack from civilllian areas then do a runner putting the civilians at risk

i dont expect any of this to be accepted as anything that is said in favour of israel is shouted down but one wrong word against muslims and suddenly the person is accused of being racist or a ranting member of the BNP i am neither of these but i do think that there is a lot of anti semetic people on here a lot of them have posted on this thread

being anti semetic is just as bad as being member of the BNP

just because you believe the person or people you are racist against deserve it doesn't make it any less a case of racism

some members would love israel just to sit on their hands and be bombed into extiction but because they wont they are berated and called murderers

israel are not squeaky clean

but hizbollah are not a legitimate amry if the fighters wanted to defend lebanon they ould have joined the lebanese army not fired rockets from streets in civilian areas
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19-09-2006, 12:16   #33
KJ_VENOM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
ABIDE BY INTERNATIONAL NORMS AND TREATIES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS EXPECTED TO !
hizbollah dont abide by international treaties israel dont use suicide bombers instead hizbollah attack from civilllian areas then do a runner putting the civilians at risk

i dont expect any of this to be accepted as anything that is said in favour of israel is shouted down but one wrong word against muslims and suddenly the person is accused of being racist or a ranting member of the BNP i am neither of these but i do think that there is a lot of anti semetic people on here a lot of them have posted on this thread

being anti semetic is just as bad as being member of the BNP

just because you believe the person or people you are racist against deserve it doesn't make it any less a case of racism

some members would love israel just to sit on their hands and be bombed into extiction but because they wont they are berated and called murderers

israel are not squeaky clean

but hizbollah are not a legitimate amry if the fighters wanted to defend lebanon they ould have joined the lebanese army not fired rockets from streets in civilian areas
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19-09-2006, 13:41   #34
El-Mariachi
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Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
hizbollah dont abide by international treaties israel dont use suicide bombers instead they attack from civilllian areas then do a runner putting the civilians at risk
They dont have to use suicide bombers as they are given the latest military hardware to do the killing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
i dont expect any of this to be accepted as anything that is said in favour of israel is shouted down but one wrong word against muslims and suddenly the person is accused of being racist or a ranting member of the BNP i am neither of these but i do think that there is a lot of anti semetic people on here a lot of them have posted on this thread
you mean like calling people anti-semitic ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
being anti semetic is just as bad as being member of the BNP

just because you believe the person or people you are racist against deserve it doesn't make it any less a case of racism

some members would love israel just to sit on their hands and be bombed into extiction but because they wont they are berated and called murderers
Being a zionist is worse than the BNP. The BNP haven't carried out ethnic cleansing or committed war crimes have they ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
israel are not squeaky clean
Is that a polite way of saying its a terrorist nation which has during the course of the last 50 years broken nearly every international and civilised norm ?

Being a zionist is worse than the BNP. The BNP haven't carried out ethnic cleansing or committed war crimes have they ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ_VENOM
but hizbollah are not a legitimate amry if the fighters wanted to defend lebanon they ould have joined the lebanese army not fired rockets from streets in civilian areas
An army has its legitamacy from the people. If the Lebanese people are supporting Hizbollah (and you'll have difficulty proving otherwise), who are you to rant about their legitamacy ????!
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19-09-2006, 15:12   #35
KenH
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Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
An army has its legitamacy from the people. If the Lebanese people are supporting Hizbollah (and you'll have difficulty proving otherwise), who are you to rant about their legitamacy ????!
An army can only have legitamacy from being the army of an elected government ot a sovereign power. In this case Hizbollah is NOT an army it is a terrorist organisation being supplied directly by an outside party. If the people all supported it then they would stand for election and would form the government. Then they could use the Lebanese Army to attack Israel. If they did this then Israel would be able to attack all the people in Lebanon as it was their own army. Whichever way you look at this, the Hizbollah terrorists had the option of not firing on Israeli civilians and even handing over their weapons and surrendering. They choose to keep atacking Israel so they are party to all the deaths.
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19-09-2006, 15:16   #36
4U2NV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
An army can only have legitamacy from being the army of an elected government ot a sovereign power. In this case Hizbollah is NOT an army it is a terrorist organisation being supplied directly by an outside party. If the people all supported it then they would stand for election and would form the government. Then they could use the Lebanese Army to attack Israel. If they did this then Israel would be able to attack all the people in Lebanon as it was their own army. Whichever way you look at this, the Hizbollah terrorists had the option of not firing on Israeli civilians and even handing over their weapons and surrendering. They choose to keep atacking Israel so they are party to all the deaths.
not all the deaths
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19-09-2006, 15:56   #37
El-Mariachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
An army can only have legitamacy from being the army of an elected government ot a sovereign power. In this case Hizbollah is NOT an army it is a terrorist organisation being supplied directly by an outside party. If the people all supported it then they would stand for election and would form the government. Then they could use the Lebanese Army to attack Israel. If they did this then Israel would be able to attack all the people in Lebanon as it was their own army. Whichever way you look at this, the Hizbollah terrorists had the option of not firing on Israeli civilians and even handing over their weapons and surrendering. They choose to keep atacking Israel so they are party to all the deaths.
An army can be
Quote:
a large body of persons trained and armed for war.
In the case of Hizbollah, they enjoy the support of the people which was clearly and abundantly evident in the interviews given by the public during the Israeli aggression.

You keep on repeating the words terrorist, but the fact of the matter is that the lebanese people dont view them as terrorists and neither do the vast majority of the "international community" (with the exception of those countries which support Israel)
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19-09-2006, 15:58   #38
El-Mariachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4U2NV

Quote:
Thousands of cluster bomblets landed in farms and villages, some 30-40% of which failed to explode at the time
but no, Israel doesn't target civilians. Those manipulative terrorists moved the villages onto the bomb sites after the bombs had been dropped.
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20-09-2006, 10:24   #39
KenH
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Originally Posted by El-Mariachi
. Those manipulative terrorists moved the villages onto the bomb sites after the bombs had been dropped.
Actually those manipulative terrorsists fired on civilian targets in Israel from within or near Lebanese villages. They must have known that the response would also injure their own civilians. One of the ways that you can clearly tell is an organisation is a terrorist organisation is that they not only try to kill their enemies civilians, but they also have no concern for their own people, aside from their propaganda value. In attacking civilian targets in Israel they will have known that it would not stop Israel in any way, it was bound to make things worse, and would result in the death of their own people. They didn't care about this. This is a million miles for a peoples' army defending against a foreign army on their own territory.
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20-09-2006, 10:50   #40
Greybeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH
An army can only have legitamacy from being the army of an elected government ot a sovereign power. In this case Hizbollah is NOT an army it is a terrorist organisation being supplied directly by an outside party. If the people all supported it then they would stand for election and would form the government. Then they could use the Lebanese Army to attack Israel. If they did this then Israel would be able to attack all the people in Lebanon as it was their own army. Whichever way you look at this, the Hizbollah terrorists had the option of not firing on Israeli civilians and even handing over their weapons and surrendering. They choose to keep atacking Israel so they are party to all the deaths.
The Israelis did in fact attack all of the people of southern Lebanon and destroyed much of the infastructure, but that isn't the argument here.

What cannot be justified is the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs which they knew to be faulty when they knew they had just a few days left in which to continue the bombardment, and which they knew would leave the area littered with with what are in effect anti-personnel mines, targetting not Hizbollah terrorists, but innocent civillians returning to their farms and villages hoping to recover their normal lives.

From a further report in the Independent today it seems these munitions were manufactured well before 1974 !!

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle1621755.ece
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