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07-12-2017, 07:46   #141
Annie Bynnol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGELFIRE1 View Post
Here you are, my post in full. PLEASE READ what it says. I will highlight the relevant words for you.

According to 5 live this afternoon, the Mayor of London thinks a border around the M25 would be a sound idea.

I think the little clown has lost his marbles.


Forgot to say, 5 live is run by the BEEB, it broadcasts on MW 909, 693 kHz


Angel1.

Sadiq Khan was not recorded by anyone anywhere saying anything about the M25 on Tuesday afternoon.
The world heard David Davies on Monday referring to Sadiq Khans response to the Border issue in the House of Parliament
David Davies introduced the M25 comment as he tried to pour scorn on the equality of treatment view of the SNP and London mayor.
The reference to the M25 was also repeated by Tom Harris of the Telegraph on the same day.

"... the clown who wants a border round the M25. Pity he has no other work to do than to think up such crazy schemes." was in India at the time- working.

Insulting, repeating yourself, shouting, misquoting and failing to respond with any evidence that Sadiq Khan "...wants a border round the M25." will not change the fact that he did not say it.

This is his tweet:

Huge ramifications for London if Theresa May has conceded that it's possible for part of the UK to remain within the single market & customs union after Brexit. Londoners overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU and a similar deal here could protect tens of thousands of jobs.
6:17 am - 4 Dec 2017
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07-12-2017, 08:50   #142
Magilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGELFIRE1 View Post
Yup, I gave you the link where my point came from, cannot do any more than that.
The problem is, Khan never said it, and 5 Live never said he did. There is no link.

So much for BBC bias eh

Ridiculous that you can't even be bothered to check, are you David Davis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGELFIRE1 View Post
Ey up, I will fall for it, go on quote where I have written I wanted a secure border.
One of the central Brexit slogans during the campaign "Secure our borders".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGELFIRE1 View Post
For the love of mike I cannot remember writing it. We have many family members in the ROI, why would I want to have a hard border.
Presumably, you voted for it. (assuming you voted to leave)

---------- Post added 07-12-2017 at 07:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie Bynnol View Post
Insulting, repeating yourself, shouting, misquoting and failing to respond with any evidence
"They don't like it up 'em"

Last edited by Magilla; 07-12-2017 at 08:53.
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07-12-2017, 09:25   #143
ENG601PM
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Originally Posted by L00b View Post
(PS:don't call us in the EU, m'kay? we'll call you )
To be sure, having dual UK / Irish citizenship means I'll call who the bloody hell I like old chap.
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07-12-2017, 09:44   #144
Lockdoctor
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The decision for the Irish border issue to be agreed before trade negotiations can begin, seems ludicrous, given what is happening. Surely it would make more sense to agree Brexit trade negotiations with the EU, then discuss the border.
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07-12-2017, 09:49   #145
L00b
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Originally Posted by ENG601PM View Post
To be sure, having dual UK / Irish citizenship means I'll call who the bloody hell I like old chap.
Here's to hoping that Arlene & Co's antics don't end up scuppering the GFA for your sake, then; and that Brextremists don't exercise their regained sovereignty to cancel out British citizens' entitlement to hold multiple citizenships.

After all, we're clearly in the strangest political times, and in the land of the impossible made possible: they'll still need someone else to blame, when they've run out of continentals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
The decision for the Irish border issue to be agreed before trade negotiations can begin, seems ludicrous, given what is happening. Surely it would make more sense to agree Brexit trade negotiations with the EU, then discuss the border.
The decision to make trade talks in phase 2 conditional upon first securing agreement about the Irish border, citizen's rights and the exit bill in phase 1 was made by the EU27 collectively, laid out to Davis on day one of the Article 50 negotiations, and Davis agreed to it on day one still.

The end.

Or do you now propose for the UK government to go back on its word?

Last edited by L00b; 07-12-2017 at 09:57.
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07-12-2017, 10:08   #146
Lockdoctor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L00b View Post
The decision to make trade talks in phase 2 conditional upon first securing agreement about the Irish border, citizen's rights and the exit bill in phase 1 was made by the EU27 collectively, laid out to Davis on day one of the Article 50 negotiations, and Davis agreed to it on day one still.

The end.

Or do you now propose for the UK government to go back on its word?
It was clearly a poor decision. It would make sense for the EU, the 27 and the UK to agree to move the Irish border issue into phase 2.
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07-12-2017, 10:18   #147
L00b
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Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
It was clearly a poor decision. It would make sense for the EU, the 27 and the UK to agree to move the Irish border issue into phase 2.
Er, not really.

It makes perfect sense for the UK, because it gives the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge, and which is exactly why you're posting the way you do, and acessorily convincing no-one who understands the issue from a factual and legal point of view.

It doesn't make the least bit of sense for the EU27, because it threatens the integrity fo the Single Market for the exact same reason (giving the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge), and which is exactly why they made it a phase 1 issue. As evidenced by the fact that the EU27 are still as united about it right now, as they were back in March 2017, and rooting for Varadkar.

Far from a 'poor decision' by the EU, it was a very decent snookering move. The UK was at all times able to escape the snookering with a proposal about the NI border, which May nearly achieved on Monday. But it's May who completed the snookering all by herself, when she formed her alliance with the DUP, for whom anything Dublin says or does is anatema.

Nobody else but the Tories to blame for this mess with NI.

Last edited by L00b; 07-12-2017 at 10:23.
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07-12-2017, 10:28   #148
Lockdoctor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L00b View Post
Er, not really.

It makes perfect sense for the UK, because it gives the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge, and which is exactly why you're posting the way you do, and acessorily convincing no-one who understands the issue from a factual and legal point of view.

It doesn't make the least bit of sense for the EU27, because it threatens the integrity fo the Single Market for the exact same reason (giving the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge), and which is exactly why they made it a phase 1 issue. As evidenced by the fact that the EU27 are still as united about it right now, as they were back in March 2017, and rooting for Varadkar.

Far from a 'poor decision' by the EU, it was a very decent snookering move. The UK was at all times able to escape the snookering with a proposal about the NI border, which May nearly achieved on Monday. But it's May who completed the snookering all by herself, when she formed her alliance with the DUP, for whom anything Dublin says or does is anatema.

Nobody else but the Tories to blame for this mess with NI.
The best thing for the UK is to walk away from the whole negotiating process now, if there is no flexibility about putting the Irish Border issue on hold. It would be ludicrous for the UK to agree to anything regarding the Irish border, which will affect the whole of the UK before trade negotiations have been discussed with the EU.
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07-12-2017, 10:39   #149
Geo-atkinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
The best thing for the UK is to walk away from the whole negotiating process now, if there is no flexibility about putting the Irish Border issue on hold. It would be ludicrous for the UK to agree to anything regarding the Irish border, which will affect the whole of the UK before trade negotiations have been discussed with the EU.

Those who wanted independence will get isolation...
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07-12-2017, 10:40   #150
L00b
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
The best thing for the UK is to walk away from the whole negotiating process now, if there is no flexibility about putting the Irish Border issue on hold. It would be ludicrous for the UK to agree to anything regarding the Irish border, which will affect the whole of the UK before trade negotiations have been discussed with the EU.
Well, May should have thought of that before forming an alliance with the most ultras of nationalists to be found in Northern Ireland. But we are where we are.

To walk away from the whole negotiating process now is absolutely not "the best thing" for the UK, for reasons already long explained on here lengthways and sideways (-but constantly hand-waved away as 'Project Fear').

The silver lining of the current EU/UK/Irish border shenanigans however -and Ireland did the UK a massive favor in that respect- is that for the first time, the dialog within the UK has started to focus on the real economic pain of Brexit, to arise from regulatory issues (alignment or divergence): bad as tariffs can be, particularly for sectors such as agriculture, regulation can stop dead trade in any given area. And will absolutely do so overnight in the case of a no deal "hard" Brexit, however much you refuse to believe it.

The DUP want an open border with RoI, and no border at all with the UK. They want what they’ve currently got, in other words. That’s a perfectly reasonable thing to want. The corollary of wanting it, though, is that the UK has to tailor its Brexit to fit it. That means a Brexit that maintains substantial regulatory alignment across the UK. So far as I can see, the DUP would be happy with that. It’s the Tory europhobes who would not be.

So what this episode is doing, is
  • drawing to the attention of the UK the true nature of the control that it has (which is control over the balance to be struck between regulatory freedom and trade integration);
  • bringing home to the UK that this is the only control it ever will have; and
  • putting the UK in the position where it actually has to exercise that control.
There can't be much more irony in the fact that the UK has demanded “control” for so long, yet Brexiters in the UK government are still trying so hard to avoid exercising it.

But not any more: at this point, failure to make a choice is itself a choice. The Article 50 clock is running. If the UK can’t decide now what balance it wants to strike, the power to make any choice at all about this will shortly pass from them.

The UK has to make a choice about what it wants out of Brexit. Simple as. Now. Time's up.

Last edited by L00b; 07-12-2017 at 10:48.
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07-12-2017, 11:01   #151
Geo-atkinson
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The clock is still ticking.

We are making a big fuss about this situation but in all honesty, to the EU this is nothing more than a squabble. It's no more important to them than the situation in Spain or in Cyprus. I am surprised that the EU was willing to accept Mrs May's proposal and to go along with a special status for Northern Ireland.

Well they've done their bit. If we can't sort this out now come the hour the border with the Republic will be closed.... By Brussels.
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07-12-2017, 11:40   #152
Lockdoctor
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Originally Posted by Geo-atkinson View Post
The clock is still ticking.

We are making a big fuss about this situation but in all honesty, to the EU this is nothing more than a squabble. It's no more important to them than the situation in Spain or in Cyprus. I am surprised that the EU was willing to accept Mrs May's proposal and to go along with a special status for Northern Ireland.

Well they've done their bit. If we can't sort this out now come the hour the border with the Republic will be closed.... By Brussels.
In all honesty the Businesses based in EU members will be frustrated that trade negotiations haven't started. The politicians are causing the problems. The UK Government really now needs to be getting tough. They could start by closing one Irish Border crossing every week. A no deal means a hard border and the UK should start preparations for that possibility.
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07-12-2017, 12:53   #153
Robin-H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
In all honesty the Businesses based in EU members will be frustrated that trade negotiations haven't started. The politicians are causing the problems. The UK Government really now needs to be getting tough. They could start by closing one Irish Border crossing every week. A no deal means a hard border and the UK should start preparations for that possibility.
We are still in the EU. We couldn't close borders between the UK and Ireland even if we wanted to (which I'm pretty sure we don't..)
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07-12-2017, 13:11   #154
El Cid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L00b View Post
The UK has to make a choice about what it wants out of Brexit. Simple as. Now. Time's up.
Some of the people of the UK voted to leave, but the majority of MPs wanted to remain in the EU. I wonder how that will pan out?
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07-12-2017, 13:15   #155
Magilla
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Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
Some of the people of the UK voted to leave, but the majority of MPs wanted to remain in the EU. I wonder how that will pan out?
Suspect that as the economic reality starts to become more apparent in their constituancies, they'll realise their careers are effectively over no matter what happens.

At that point we might see some develop a backbone and stand up to the more extreme Brexit loons in government.
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07-12-2017, 13:26   #156
Lockdoctor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
Some of the people of the UK voted to leave, but the majority of MPs wanted to remain in the EU. I wonder how that will pan out?
That is the problem. If the majority of MPs wanted to leave, then there wouldn't have been a election and things would be panning out much better.

---------- Post added 07-12-2017 at 12:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin-H View Post
We are still in the EU. We couldn't close borders between the UK and Ireland even if we wanted to (which I'm pretty sure we don't..)
There is nothing to stop the UK digging up roads anywhere in the UK.
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07-12-2017, 13:39   #157
Car Boot
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Originally Posted by Magilla View Post
Suspect that as the economic reality starts to become more apparent in their constituancies, they'll realise their careers are effectively over no matter what happens.
Not a chance.

These careerist pro-EU politicians will continue to frustrate Brexit and keep working towards their (and Goldman Sachs) ultimate aim of denying the democratic will of the British people by holding another (and another, and another if necessary) EU referendum until they get the result they so greatly desire.
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07-12-2017, 13:45   #158
Magilla
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Originally Posted by Car Boot View Post
Not a chance.

These careerist pro-EU politicians will continue to frustrate Brexit and keep working towards their (and Goldman Sachs) ultimate aim of denying the democratic will of the British people by holding another (and another, and another if necessary) EU referendum until they get the result they so greatly desire.
Not just Goldman Sachs, if things continue as they are, soon it'll be the majority of voters
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07-12-2017, 15:50   #159
Annie Bynnol
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Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
... There is nothing to stop the UK digging up roads anywhere in the UK.
The UK might find it more difficult to dig up the rivers, lakes, mudflats, estuaries and seas.
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07-12-2017, 16:17   #160
Lockdoctor
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Originally Posted by Annie Bynnol View Post
The UK might find it more difficult to dig up the rivers, lakes, mudflats, estuaries and seas.
The UK only needs to send a clear message that they are prepared for a hard border in the event of a no deal. A few military training exercises in the rivers, mudflats, estuaries and seas are another option.
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