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Guest busdriver1
It’s due to a manufacturing defect. If you bought a washing machine which was subsequently recalled several years after you bought it, would you blame yourself for not spotting the fault yourself or the manufacturer?

 

The fault is something that has occurred because they have been in service and have been racking up the miles, it isn’t something that would be apparent on delivery.

 

This isn’t anything caused by Supertram and it is Vossloh who have withdrawn the fleet, the same as it was prior to Christmas when there was an issue with the braking system which required a software update to resolve.

 

I think the chance of Supertram ever ordering more trams from Vossloh is fairly remote. They certainly aren’t happy about the quality of the product.

 

Was it Supertram that ordered them or the higher powers that came up with the hair brained scheme in the first place?

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Thanks Hook. I wonder where was the due diligence & prudence in the procurement process to ensure that these - very expensive -vehicles, funded from public money, would actually be fit for purpose??

 

Supertram didn’t have much choice in the vehicles they were given. The majority of the decisions were taken at a higher level. In addition part of the tram train trial is to see how wel ‘off the shelf’ vehicles work, so whereas the original fleet of trams were designed specifically for Sheffield these are not. Supertram are having to work with what they’ve been ‘given’ and I think it’s clear that things haven’t gone as smoothly as everybody would have liked.

 

---------- Post added 18-02-2018 at 06:57 ----------

 

Was it Supertram that ordered them or the higher powers that came up with the hair brained scheme in the first place?

 

I understand that Vossloh (then Stadler) were pretty much the only option for such a small volume order because the vehicles were actually tagged on to a larger order for different city.

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On Supertram's website today -

 

"Citylink Trams

16 Feb 2018

 

 

 

 

The new trams were delivered several years ago & only put into service last autumn, we were told that the timelag between delivery & starting in service was due to the requirement for extensive testing & driver training. .

 

I do not know who fed you such a story as for the first year and a half there was no driver training and they were not out on the track so not much testing was taking place.

 

I was told by a senior Supertram person that they could not be used because they were unable to couple with the existing trams.

 

By the time the service is up and running the experiment will be over at this rate and no doubt as some might hope (not me) deemed a failure

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I do not know who fed you such a story as for the first year and a half there was no driver training and they were not out on the track so not much testing was taking place.

 

I was told by a senior Supertram person that they could not be used because they were unable to couple with the existing trams.

 

By the time the service is up and running the experiment will be over at this rate and no doubt as some might hope (not me) deemed a failure

 

They were out on nights for a long time doing commissioning. There was a short delay while there was a problem with coupling, again due to a manufacturing problem. The coupler provided could not cope with the gradients on the Sheffield network.

 

Again, you misunderstand as this was all part of the trial. An 'off the shelf' tram solution was part of the aim of the trial and therefore some elements of the trial haven't worked and have had to have been adapted and changed to suit Sheffield's fairly unique tram network.

 

You were misinformed. The new trams could not couple with each other (see above), however tram 10 of the old fleet was fitted to ensure that if the Citylink vehicles needed recovering they could be recovered. There are no plans to use the Siemens fleet on a regular basis to couple with Citylink vehicles due to the different weights involved.

Edited by Hook

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They were out on nights for a long time doing commissioning. There was a short delay while there was a problem with coupling, again due to a manufacturing problem. The coupler provided could not cope with the gradients on the Sheffield network.

 

Again, you misunderstand as this was all part of the trial. An 'off the shelf' tram solution was part of the aim of the trial and therefore some elements of the trial haven't worked and have had to have been adapted and changed to suit Sheffield's fairly unique tram network.

 

You were misinformed. The new trams could not couple with each other (see above), however tram 10 of the old fleet was fitted to ensure that if the Citylink vehicles needed recovering they could be recovered. There are no plans to use the Siemens fleet on a regular basis to couple with Citylink vehicles due to the different weights involved.

 

I am not surprised that I was lied to (or only told part of the truth) but that was what I was told when I asked why the trams had not been introduced as promised by the PTE and Stagecoach in their press statement in December 2015 after the delivery of the first tram - see extract of the press release

 

I never expected that the trams would be run in pairs but did wonder that if this was a problem why it had not been thought about at the design stage

 

The Tram Trains, which will allow passengers to make a single journey between tram stops and conventional rail stations from early 2017, will undergo testing before being introduced on the Supertram network in Summer 2016 to provide extra services at busy times.

 

perhaps Hook you might enlighten everyone as to the reasons then that the trams were introduced a year later than promised

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Neither the PTE or Stagecoach are in charge of the Tram Train trial.

The trial, and I emphasise trial, involves(ed) many different organisations which have had to work together to create something completely new to the UK.

The dates and costs were always estimates and nobody ever 'promised' anything- trials don't work like that. I am sure that the PTE and Stagecoach are equally unhappy.

The single biggest influence has been associated with track and signalling which is under the control of Network Rail and its contractors. Also new guidlines and rules have meant a new bridge and track lowering which is only now being completed as are platforms three and four at Rotherham Central.

 

The failure of Government owned Network Rail to meet is commitments is well known. Plant, equipement and technical staff were needed elsewhere. This is magnifyed by the need to reorganize the closing of the live railway for work on this scale which need months of planning.

 

The closure of the Meadowhall section in two weeks will see the completion of the track and wiring at Meadowhall South. From May the national rail time table includes space for Tram Trains to run through to Parkgate.

 

The Tram Trains were never planned or intended to run in pairs, the problem has arisen because of the problem of "rescuing" a failed tram train on the railway section.

 

Correspondence about Tram Train issues with Stagecoach and or PTE is pointless as if they did know anything they would not tell you.

Edited by Annie Bynnol

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Annie, you are conflating two issues - the work on the classic rail which is the responsibility of Network rail and the announcement that the new tram trains would enter service in summer 2016 to strengthen the existing tram services

 

The PTE in a press release on 10th December 2015 stated that the tram trains were to undergo testing before being introduced on the Supertram network in Summer 2016 to provide extra services at busy times This did not happen and we have yet to receive an explanation as to why this was delayed by a year. This is public money and the public have a right to know

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Annie, you are conflating two issues - the work on the classic rail which is the responsibility of Network rail and the announcement that the new tram trains would enter service in summer 2016 to strengthen the existing tram services

 

The PTE in a press release on 10th December 2015 stated that the tram trains were to undergo testing before being introduced on the Supertram network in Summer 2016 to provide extra services at busy times This did not happen and we have yet to receive an explanation as to why this was delayed by a year. This is public money and the public have a right to know

 

Yet again you are ignoring people who know more than you and are refusing to listen.

 

 

The vehicles are part of the trial. They are an off the shelf solution and we’re not designed specifically for Sheffield as the original trams were. They were purchased primarily for the trial and they are still being trialled. Their use on the existing network is a trial.

 

As a trial dates at subject to change and issues are expected to arise. This is all part of the trial.

 

I won’t respond to you any further as it isn’t adding anything, we just go round in circles.

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Annie, you are conflating two issues - the work on the classic rail which is the responsibility of Network rail and the announcement that the new tram trains would enter service in summer 2016 to strengthen the existing tram services

 

The PTE in a press release on 10th December 2015 stated that the tram trains were to undergo testing before being introduced on the Supertram network in Summer 2016 to provide extra services at busy times This did not happen and we have yet to receive an explanation as to why this was delayed by a year. This is public money and the public have a right to know

 

 

The National Audit Office Office has already produced a very critical and detailed report on the cost and time overrun. here

 

The Tram Train trial project is run by Network Rail funded by Government.

The train trams are paid for and owned by Network Rail. In service they are operated by Stagecoach Supertram who are paid by Network Rail. The Engineer in charge is paid for by Network Rail. The Engineer decides when each tram train is available to Stagecoach Supertram.

 

You will be glad to know that neither the PTE or Stagecoach Supertram are to blame or will incur any costs.

 

It is always possible that the trial will be stopped, end early or be deemed technically unsuccessful or successful or financially viable. What happens to the train trams and infrastructure will be up for negotiation at an appropriate time in the future. This time might coincide with the end of the current Supertram franchise/concession.

 

From Supertram today:

Due to the contractor not receiving vital components from the supplier, the overhead power line work at Tinsley planned for the 24th and 25th February 2018 will no longer take place. A normal service will now operate on all routes on these dates, and work will be rescheduled for a later date. Thank you for your cooperation.

Edited by Annie Bynnol

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I read the report when it came out (by the way on my computer at least your link does not work) and it made sad although not surprising reading.

 

however I don't recall any explanation why the intended use of the Tram trains to strengthen the peak tram service before going into service on the new line was delayed for more than a year. The PTE and Stagecoach were happy to trumpet this and issue press releases so why are they keeping quite now

 

In addition we were told that 3 of these train trams were to be used once the line was up and running to strengthen the peak tram service and that only 4 were needed for the tram/train to Rotherham. Have Notwork Rail made the decision not to provide more trams in the peak (having spares in itself is sensible as the Thais found out when they had no spare trains to cover for heavy maintenance on their airport line)

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Supertram didn’t have much choice in the vehicles they were given. The majority of the decisions were taken at a higher level. In addition part of the tram train trial is to see how wel ‘off the shelf’ vehicles work, so whereas the original fleet of trams were designed specifically for Sheffield these are not. Supertram are having to work with what they’ve been ‘given’ and I think it’s clear that things haven’t gone as smoothly as everybody would have liked.

 

---------- Post added 18-02-2018 at 06:57 ----------

 

 

I understand that Vossloh (then Stadler) were pretty much the only option for such a small volume order because the vehicles were actually tagged on to a larger order for different city.

 

According to the House of Commons public accounts committee that Annie Bynnol was so kind to post the responsibilities are outlined below

 

The Department is the project sponsor and is responsible for overseeing overall progress with the project. Network Rail is responsible for the project to modify the national rail infrastructure. South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (SYPTE) is responsible for modifying the tramway section and buying new vehicles, while Stagecoach Supertram will test the vehicles and run the passenger service.

 

In addition network rail have confirmed that they were not responsible for the extra years delay in the new tram trains running on the existing tram network. So did SYPTE make a pigs ear of the procuement or stagecoach the testing.

 

You keep saying you know more so perhaps now is a good time to answe the simple question that I asked why was the introduction on the exiting tram network extended from 6 months to 18 months?

 

That issues that have arisen once in service that is pretty much as one might expect with a new build of tram or train

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According to the House of Commons public accounts committee that Annie Bynnol was so kind to post the responsibilities are outlined below

 

The Department is the project sponsor and is responsible for overseeing overall progress with the project. Network Rail is responsible for the project to modify the national rail infrastructure. South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (SYPTE) is responsible for modifying the tramway section and buying new vehicles, while Stagecoach Supertram will test the vehicles and run the passenger service.

 

In addition network rail have confirmed that they were not responsible for the extra years delay in the new tram trains running on the existing tram network. So did SYPTE make a pigs ear of the procuement or stagecoach the testing.

 

You keep saying you know more so perhaps now is a good time to answe the simple question that I asked why was the introduction on the exiting tram network extended from 6 months to 18 months?

 

That issues that have arisen once in service that is pretty much as one might expect with a new build of tram or train

 

Because they were being tested and commissioned and before they were ready to enter passenger services changed needed to be made before they could be used in passenger service.

 

This is part of the whole point of it being a trial. How is this so hard to understand?

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