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14-09-2018, 09:06   #2121
MarkS20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendix View Post
Hush your mouth. You're not allowed to say that a quiet majority of people who actually live in the areas affected don't conflate carefully managed tree management with 'evil culling'.

Be prepared to suffer the wrath of the bearded classes. And their husbands.

I must admit i thought long and hard before sharing my opinion.
I think I have covered my tracks well, but in any case I'll get the crash barriers and private security team on standby outside my house ready for rent-a-crowd.
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14-09-2018, 09:07   #2122
peteh1
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Got to agree, very little praise for as you say carefully managed tree maintenance, perhaps most people who think this way are just sitting on their hands ?
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14-09-2018, 10:05   #2123
makapaka
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Nowhere does it say "the council" in this quote. It's a statement of belief about what behaviour is okay and what not. But makapaka in your desire to defend the council, you've seized on what you thought was a mistake to distract from the behaviour of the council.
We all know that the police were there at the instigation of the council though.
Not at all.

I asked why the poster was intent on attacking the council and they responded to that post with the statement they were looping down trees and arresting people with pink trumpets.

I havenít seized on anything - thatís just a fact itís written above.

You accuse me of being one sided but itís actually the other way - you and others canít accept anything I say without accusing me of bias.

Now to the point where clarifying a simple statement that the council didnít arrest anyone is now ďdistracting from the behaviour of the councilĒ.

Itís just a desire to shut down any view which does not conform to your/others pre determined opinion. It demonstrates a much higher level of one-sidedness than I could ever be accused of.
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14-09-2018, 10:16   #2124
Cyclone
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I'm not sure how we can have a bias towards your posts, they're literally always in defence of the council or amey, at least when that's the topic being discussed.

She didn't say that the council arrested them, but we all know that the police were there on the request of the council. As they were at the dawn raid on Rustlings Rd (not forgotten that one have you), where they (at the request of the council) misapplied old legislation to arrest a number of people who were subsequently released without charge (and the police were warned not to misuse that legislation as a pretext for arrests again).

You'll find me on other threads defending the council, that demonstrates a lack of one sidedness. Not on this thread though, on this thread the council are thoroughly and completely in the wrong. I've not yet seen you criticise the council though, on any issue, ever.

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 10:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bendix View Post
Hush your mouth. You're not allowed to say that a quiet majority of people who actually live in the areas affected don't conflate carefully managed tree management with 'evil culling'.

Be prepared to suffer the wrath of the bearded classes. And their husbands.
Ah, neat little quip there, ad hom attack on anyone arguing against you. How's your beard coming along, still hoping that it will start to grow when you get older?

Quote:
live in the area most affected and can't say I've seen any evidence of any trees being removed.
Was it 5000 tree's removed before they've 'paused', but you've not seen any evidence of it. Amazing. I can see the evidence of it on my street, there are tree's missing, quite a few of them. I do have to literally open my eyes to see it though and compare what I see now to what I remember seeing before!
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14-09-2018, 10:29   #2125
MarkS20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post


Was it 5000 tree's removed before they've 'paused', but you've not seen any evidence of it. Amazing. I can see the evidence of it on my street, there are tree's missing, quite a few of them. I do have to literally open my eyes to see it though and compare what I see now to what I remember seeing before!

Ahh neat little ignore of the replace after the removal.
I can only speak for what i've seen, but certainly no fewer trees, and many that are more appropriately sized for their location.
All good.
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14-09-2018, 10:46   #2126
dave_the_m
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The Elliott street tree survey which SCC commissioned in 2007 concluded that 74% of Sheffield's street trees were mature, and that approx 1000 needed felling, with another 750 needing to undergo extensive surveys, possibly leading to removal. SCC somehow converted that into: 75% of trees are reaching the end of their life; 6000 needed felling by 2017, and 17,500 (half of all street trees) need to have been felled within a further 20 years.

This is why the "bearded ladies" of STAG think SCC are unnecessarily cutting down trees.
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14-09-2018, 10:47   #2127
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Ah yes, the saplings. In about 20 - 30 years they'll be of a similar maturity to the trees that were needlessly removed. That's 20 - 30 years of cheaper maintenance for Amey isn't it...
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14-09-2018, 10:49   #2128
MarkS20
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Ah yes, the saplings. In about 20 - 30 years they'll be of a similar maturity to the trees that were needlessly removed. That's 20 - 30 years of cheaper maintenance for Amey isn't it...
Good long term planning too, even better.
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14-09-2018, 10:51   #2129
paula4sheff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS20 View Post
Ahh neat little ignore of the replace after the removal.
I can only speak for what i've seen, but certainly no fewer trees, and many that are more appropriately sized for their location.
All good.
No sign of any of the replacement trees in my area. Just holes in the ground. And a few half hacked trees that they've left half cut down, presumably as monuments to their own stupidity, and as a reminder to residents?

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 10:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by peteh1 View Post
Got to agree, very little praise for as you say carefully managed tree maintenance, perhaps most people who think this way are just sitting on their hands ?
I think everyone is in favour of carefully managed tree maintenance aren't they? Sadly the Amey approach is very, very far from that.

Hacking something down is much easier and cheaper that maintaining it.

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 10:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by makapaka View Post
Not at all.

I asked why the poster was intent on attacking the council and they responded to that post with the statement they were looping down trees and arresting people with pink trumpets.

I haven’t seized on anything - that’s just a fact it’s written above.

You accuse me of being one sided but it’s actually the other way - you and others can’t accept anything I say without accusing me of bias.

Now to the point where clarifying a simple statement that the council didn’t arrest anyone is now “distracting from the behaviour of the council”.

It’s just a desire to shut down any view which does not conform to your/others pre determined opinion. It demonstrates a much higher level of one-sidedness than I could ever be accused of.
I think people wouldn't accuse you of bias if there was any example, anywhere, of you doing anything but defend the council. On every single issue, no matter the thread or subject. That's quite strange really, isn't it?

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 10:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bendix View Post
Hush your mouth. You're not allowed to say that a quiet majority of people who actually live in the areas affected don't conflate carefully managed tree management with 'evil culling'.

Be prepared to suffer the wrath of the bearded classes. And their husbands.
Perhaps this 'quiet majority' could go out and rally in favour of Amey then against these 'bearded classes' who don't especially want to see healthy trees cut down for corporate profit?

I'd wager they probably won't as they'd rather sit on their sofa in front of the television.....and then complain after all the trees in their area have gone.

Last edited by paula4sheff; 14-09-2018 at 10:58.
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14-09-2018, 11:12   #2130
MarkS20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paula4sheff View Post
No sign of any of the replacement trees in my area. Just holes in the ground. And a few half hacked trees that they've left half cut down, presumably as monuments to their own stupidity, and as a reminder to residents?[COLOR="Silver"]
That's not good, do you think they haven't finished the work or are they leaving it like that?



I dont know how to do multiple quotes, but re the silent majority, we will never know without a referendum, or something like a local election..
I do know plenty of people who are embarrassed by the 'protestors' stopping people getting on with their jobs, increasing the costs of the necessary works, and continually saying trees are being removed, instead of being replaced.
Personally I can honestly say the street I live on and the surrounding streets are in a much better state now and much much better set for the future following the long overdue maintenance.
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14-09-2018, 11:19   #2131
paula4sheff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS20 View Post
That's not good, do you think they haven't finished the work or are they leaving it like that?



I dont know how to do multiple quotes, but re the silent majority, we will never know without a referendum, or something like a local election..
I do know plenty of people who are embarrassed by the 'protestors' stopping people getting on with their jobs, increasing the costs of the necessary works, and continually saying trees are being removed, instead of being replaced.
Personally I can honestly say the street I live on and the surrounding streets are in a much better state now and much much better set for the future following the long overdue maintenance.
I've no idea what their plans are -but it's been like that for about a year now. The holes in the pavement are a 'no win, no fee' claim waiting to happen in my view.

I'm still baffled as to why anyone would be "embarrassed" by a group of people not wanting healthy trees destroyed to line the pockets of a multinational company.

These trees don't need to be 'replaced' (although, as mentioned, they're not being where I live) at all. They need to be properly maintained. They're not causing problems - as the independent survey showed. No one has ever disputed the removing of trees that the survey stated need replacing. That the survey was undertaken and then ignored is indefensible.
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14-09-2018, 11:26   #2132
Cyclone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS20 View Post
Good long term planning too, even better.
Now you're just being ridiculous, it's long term planning by Amey for sure, they've managed to massively damage the Sheffield street scene in favour of maximising their profits and the council has let them.
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14-09-2018, 11:30   #2133
MarkS20
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Now you're just being ridiculous, it's long term planning by Amey for sure, they've managed to massively damage the Sheffield street scene in favour of maximising their profits and the council has let them.
Not where I live, it looks better and will do for decades now.
New footpaths, new roads, new trees.
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14-09-2018, 11:37   #2134
Cyclone
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Weird, because nowhere else looks better with the trees replaced by saplings for no reason...
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14-09-2018, 11:43   #2135
MarkS20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paula4sheff View Post

I'm still baffled as to why anyone would be "embarrassed" by a group of people not wanting healthy trees destroyed to line the pockets of a multinational company.
.
Because as far as I see it the reasons for the protests are:
Environmental impact - but the trees are (or certainly should be being) replaced, thus ensuring street trees for decades to come. Meanwhile across the globe up to 7 BILLION trees (ok thats only from a quick google, so it may be less (or more!)) are cut down each year and not replaced. Now that is worth protesting about, but its not outside yours or mine front doors, so we'll get in the way of tree REPLACEMENTS in our own little neighbourhood instead. That's not on environmental terms for me, its NIMBYism.

Money - Not quite got this one straight, but its either costing too much, a company being paid too much, or not spending enough on it, but either way the protests are clearly making it cost more.
I want the council to do its job - part of which is to manage the environment. From what I can see the impact of this has been positive (as I said before, new paths, new road surface, new trees) and looks set for decades.
I am pleased they've done it.

These are my views. I also respect the protestor's right to make as much noise as they want to about it, there are many people that don't, I just think its effort pointed in the wrong direction whether on an environmental or money basis.

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 11:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Weird, because nowhere else looks better with the trees replaced by saplings for no reason...
But the good news is they only replaced the ones that were too big or causing or about to cause other damage, so now we have a good mix of trees.
We also have different definitions of saplings as the new trees look pretty substantial to me.

But maybe I'm just lucky eh?!
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14-09-2018, 11:56   #2136
Cyclone
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No, that's quite clearly not true, they've replaced trees for no good reason, that's been very well established now.

Maybe you're just delusional, or you have some other angle, perhaps you work for Amey PR, who knows.
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14-09-2018, 11:57   #2137
paula4sheff
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Originally Posted by MarkS20 View Post
Because as far as I see it the reasons for the protests are:
Environmental impact - but the trees are (or certainly should be being) replaced, thus ensuring street trees for decades to come. Meanwhile across the globe up to 7 BILLION trees (ok thats only from a quick google, so it may be less (or more!)) are cut down each year and not replaced. Now that is worth protesting about, but its not outside yours or mine front doors, so we'll get in the way of tree REPLACEMENTS in our own little neighbourhood instead. That's not on environmental terms for me, its NIMBYism.

Money - Not quite got this one straight, but its either costing too much, a company being paid too much, or not spending enough on it, but either way the protests are clearly making it cost more.
I want the council to do its job - part of which is to manage the environment. From what I can see the impact of this has been positive (as I said before, new paths, new road surface, new trees) and looks set for decades.
I am pleased they've done it.

These are my views. I also respect the protestor's right to make as much noise as they want to about it, there are many people that don't, I just think its effort pointed in the wrong direction whether on an environmental or money basis.
Huh?

I'm not sure you've grasped this. The point is that the trees DON'T need to be replaced- I'm not sure where your belief they should be comes from. The independent panel certainly didn't come back with that conclusion. The only people who say they need to go are Amey.....

...which brings us to the money point. The reason Amey want them to go is that they don't want to pay to maintain them. Hence people's anger- if they cut them down, no maintaining is necessary.

The argument about NIMBYISM is ridiculous and nonsensical. It's also one often used by people who are happy to do nothing about any problems in society, but also happy to say "the country is going to the dogs" or suchlike.

Should people ignore problems on their doorstep because there are bigger problems in the world? Does that apply to everything, or just tree destruction? Should we also ignore murders in Sheffield because there is genocide in Myanmar? Of course not. By your logic nobody would ever complain about anything, ever. Politicians corrupt? Don't protest - they're more corrupt in Zambia. Streets covered in litter? Don't complain - it's way worse in Mumbai. High pollution? Don't try and sort it out - it's much worse in Shanghai. Etc etc.

It's absurd to claim people shouldn't care about trees in their neighbourhood being destroyed for no reason because there is more widespread destruction elsewhere!
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14-09-2018, 12:00   #2138
MarkS20
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
No, that's quite clearly not true, they've replaced trees for no good reason, that's been very well established now.

Maybe you're just delusional, or you have some other angle, perhaps you work for Amey PR, who knows.
No, sorry to disappoint you just a regular guy, but with a different opinion to yourself.
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14-09-2018, 12:02   #2139
makapaka
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Originally Posted by paula4sheff View Post
No sign of any of the replacement trees in my area. Just holes in the ground. And a few half hacked trees that they've left half cut down, presumably as monuments to their own stupidity, and as a reminder to residents?

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 10:52 ----------



I think everyone is in favour of carefully managed tree maintenance aren't they? Sadly the Amey approach is very, very far from that.

Hacking something down is much easier and cheaper that maintaining it.

---------- Post added 14-09-2018 at 10:54 ----------



I think people wouldn't accuse you of bias if there was any example, anywhere, of you doing anything but defend the council. On every single issue, no matter the thread or subject. That's quite strange really, isn't it?[COLOR="Silver"]
Which other subjects?

Tramlines - you managed to dig them out about that.

Grass verges - where I criticised the performance of the council / amey?

The new retail quarter which people seem to have a problem with?

What other issues have I defended which highlight my bias?
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14-09-2018, 12:03   #2140
MarkS20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paula4sheff View Post
Huh?

I'm not sure you've grasped this. The point is that the trees DON'T need to be replaced- I'm not sure where your belief they should be comes from. The independent panel certainly didn't come back with that conclusion. The only people who say they need to go are Amey.....

...which brings us to the money point. The reason Amey want them to go is that they don't want to pay to maintain them. Hence people's anger- if they cut them down, no maintaining is necessary.

The argument about NIMBYISM is ridiculous and nonsensical. It's also one often used by people who are happy to do nothing about any problems in society, but also happy to say "the country is going to the dogs" or suchlike.

Should people ignore problems on their doorstep because there are bigger problems in the world? Does that apply to everything, or just tree destruction? Should we also ignore murders in Sheffield because there is genocide in Myanmar? Of course not. By your logic nobody would ever complain about anything, ever. Politicians corrupt? Don't protest - they're more corrupt in Zambia. Streets covered in litter? Don't complain - it's way worse in Mumbai. High pollution? Don't try and sort it out - it's much worse in Shanghai. Etc etc.

It's absurd to claim people shouldn't care about trees in their neighbourhood being destroyed for no reason because there is more widespread destruction elsewhere!
No, by all means complain, my point is just that the proportional effort should be in line with the impact of what you're complaining about.

I'm done with this thread now, I wish you all the best, I also hope the council and its contractors can get on with their jobs, and everyone in Sheffield's streets gets upgraded like mine has been.
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