The Consequences of Brexit [part 5] Read 1st post before posting

This does not require the agreement of the UK Government.

 

Apart from security checks by the RUC and the British Army, there has always been free movement of people since the border was created in 1921.

 

Offhand, I can't think of any other example in the world where complete freedom of movement of people between two sovereign nations is guaranteed. Even signatories to the Schengen Agreement are still allowed to temporarily reimpose border controls in certain circumstances. Even a technological solution to border controls in Ireland could be deemed to be in breach of the Good Friday Agreement.

 

I very much doubt that Republican paramilitaries would attack any signs of a 'hard border' such as surveillance camera positions, data lines and power supplies to devices set up either side of the border. It would be a campaign of well supported civil disobedience which will make the system unworkable. Remember, over 90% of the population in the border areas are Irish nationalists, North and South. And unlike during the 'Troubles' where the Irish government supported the British government, a post Brexit Irish government would not be so fervent in their support, especially as Sinn Fein is now a growing force in the politics of the South. The danger lies in the mobilisation of police or even troops into border areas to deal with this civil disobedience.

 

That is when paramilitaries will become involved.

You make about a valid point regarding border arrangements made before both the UK and the Republic of Ireland joined the EEC.

The use of CCTV happens all over the World nowadays and is nothing new. If criminals attempt or do destroy any cameras, then the police and army would have to be brought in to deal with civil disobedience and the border would become more hard than soft as a consequence. There are military drones nowadays and I don't have a problem, if similar drones are used to stop civil disobedience on the Irish border as what are used by the UK Authorities in other parts of the World.

You make about a valid point regarding border arrangements made before both the UK and the Republic of Ireland joined the EEC.

 

The use of CCTV happens all over the World nowadays and is nothing new. If criminals attempt or do destroy any cameras, then the police and army would have to be brought in to deal with civil disobedience and the border would become more hard than soft as a consequence. There are military drones nowadays and I don't have a problem, if similar drones are used to stop civil disobedience on the Irish border as what are used by the UK Authorities in other parts of the World.

So what you are saying is that you want drones to shoot dissidents before they become a problem? I think you misunderstood George Orwell...

And how are these drones and cameras going to stop people and goods smuggling across the border? Will some of them have sniffer dogs hanging off of them in little harnesses, wizzing past cars to ensure there are no illegal substances like cheese or flowers in each car?

You make about a valid point regarding border arrangements made before both the UK and the Republic of Ireland joined the EEC.

 

The use of CCTV happens all over the World nowadays and is nothing new. If criminals attempt or do destroy any cameras, then the police and army would have to be brought in to deal with civil disobedience and the border would become more hard than soft as a consequence. There are military drones nowadays and I don't have a problem, if similar drones are used to stop civil disobedience on the Irish border as what are used by the UK Authorities in other parts of the World.

It’s a very good point. A technology solution using cameras would be continually sabotaged. Some of the crossing points are very remote. The border is 300 miles long.

Not in a CU and SM means a hard border. There is no escaping that.

So what you are saying is that you want drones to shoot dissidents before they become a problem? I think you misunderstood George Orwell...

 

And how are these drones and cameras going to stop people and goods smuggling across the border? Will some of them have sniffer dogs hanging off of them in little harnesses, wizzing past cars to ensure there are no illegal substances like cheese or flowers in each car?

 

You need to read posts properly and also read the posts quoted properly. The poster mentioned Republican paramilitaries organising civil disorder and I pointed out, that if that did happen, then the UK authorities would have to take action to stop the civil disorder. I never suggested the authorities doing anything before a problem happens. Technology will me used to monitor vehicles which cross the border. We already have automatically number plate recognition, which can tell the authorities, if a vehicle is taxed, insured and has a valid MOT. Similar technology can be used to make sure businesses using a vehicle to transport goods across the border have filed the relevant customs documents to the authorities. The authorities will investigate hauliers etc who haven't filed documents and make random spot checks on vehicles to ensure correct customs documents have been filed. The authorities will target large lorries and commercial vans for inspection away from the border rather than whizzing past small cars. I doubt very much after Brexit agreements have been made racketeers will abandon the illegal cross border drugs trade and start using small cars to move flowers and cheese across the border.

---------- Post added 21-07-2018 at 11:15 ----------

It’s a very good point. A technology solution using cameras would be continually sabotaged. Some of the crossing points are very remote. The border is 300 miles long.

 

Not in a CU and SM means a hard border. There is no escaping that.

As I have stated before people who still don't respect the democratic referendum result look and hope for problems, while those who accept the democratic referendum vote, listen and look for solutions for potential problems.

You need to read posts properly and also read the posts quoted properly. The poster mentioned Republican paramilitaries organising civil disorder and I pointed out, that if that did happen, then the UK authorities would have to take action to stop the civil disorder. I never suggested the authorities doing anything before a problem happens. Technology will me used to monitor vehicles which cross the border. We already have automatically number plate recognition, which can tell the authorities, if a vehicle is taxed, insured and has a valid MOT. Similar technology can be used to make sure businesses using a vehicle to transport goods across the border have filed the relevant customs documents to the authorities. The authorities will investigate hauliers etc who haven't filed documents and make random spot checks on vehicles to ensure correct customs documents have been filed. The authorities will target large lorries and commercial vans for inspection away from the border rather than whizzing past small cars. I doubt very much after Brexit agreements have been made racketeers will abandon the illegal cross border drugs trade and start using small cars to move flowers and cheese across the border.

That solution would not prevent free movement of people.

Won’t provide what Brexiters really want. Sorry. Start again.

You need to read posts properly and also read the posts quoted properly. The poster mentioned Republican paramilitaries organising civil disorder and I pointed out, that if that did happen, then the UK authorities would have to take action to stop the civil disorder. I never suggested the authorities doing anything before a problem happens. Technology will me used to monitor vehicles which cross the border. We already have automatically number plate recognition, which can tell the authorities, if a vehicle is taxed, insured and has a valid MOT. Similar technology can be used to make sure businesses using a vehicle to transport goods across the border have filed the relevant customs documents to the authorities. The authorities will investigate hauliers etc who haven't filed documents and make random spot checks on vehicles to ensure correct customs documents have been filed. The authorities will target large lorries and commercial vans for inspection away from the border rather than whizzing past small cars. I doubt very much after Brexit agreements have been made racketeers will abandon the illegal cross border drugs trade and start using small cars to move flowers and cheese across the border.

 

---------- Post added 21-07-2018 at 11:15 ----------

 

As I have stated before people who still don't respect the democratic referendum result look and hope for problems, while those who accept the democratic referendum vote, listen and look for solutions for potential problems.

Excellent idea. So how do you around the fact that we are not allowed to create checkpoints on the border?

No matter what is presented to the EU it seems that more and more concessions are asked for. I always thought that during negotiations both gave a little but I see no give from the EU and I believe this will end in a no deal which suits no one.

No matter what is presented to the EU it seems that more and more concessions are asked for. I always thought that during negotiations both gave a little but I see no give from the EU and I believe this will end in a no deal which suits no one.

If economic damage is to occur to both the EU and the UK. Who will recover sooner and better? The world’s largest trading bloc or a single country whose economy is 16% of the size?

The EU’s game plan would be to either have a deal that is of benefit to them or create damage to everyone but ensure that they’ll have an economic advantage out of the other side. There is a long game worth playing for.

You need to read posts properly and also read the posts quoted properly. The poster mentioned Republican paramilitaries organising civil disorder and I pointed out, that if that did happen, then the UK authorities would have to take action to stop the civil disorder. I never suggested the authorities doing anything before a problem happens. Technology will me used to monitor vehicles which cross the border. We already have automatically number plate recognition, which can tell the authorities, if a vehicle is taxed, insured and has a valid MOT. Similar technology can be used to make sure businesses using a vehicle to transport goods across the border have filed the relevant customs documents to the authorities. The authorities will investigate hauliers etc who haven't filed documents and make random spot checks on vehicles to ensure correct customs documents have been filed. The authorities will target large lorries and commercial vans for inspection away from the border rather than whizzing past small cars. I doubt very much after Brexit agreements have been made racketeers will abandon the illegal cross border drugs trade and start using small cars to move flowers and cheese across the border.

great stuff, so to satisfy the brexit idiots lets bring back the troubles

That solution would not prevent free movement of people.

 

Won’t provide what Brexiters really want. Sorry. Start again.

The UK Government have made it clear they don't intend to stop free movement of people across the Irish border. Both the UK and the Republic of Ireland are exempt from the Schengen Agreement. There already have been precedents in EU treaties and agreement for exemptions. The UK Government can exempt the Republic of Ireland from the end of freedom of movement of people after the UK leave the EU. The Brexiters as you call them wanted freedom of movement to end from mainland Europe and not from the Republic of Ireland, who the UK made arrangements with before both countries joined the EEC.

---------- Post added 21-07-2018 at 11:46 ----------

Excellent idea. So how do you around the fact that we are not allowed to create checkpoints on the border?

I haven't suggested checkpoints on the border. Mrs May has not suggested checkpoints on the border. A technical solution mean any checks will take place away from the border.

The UK Government have made it clear they don't intend to stop free movement of people across the Irish border. Both the UK and the Republic of Ireland are exempt from the Schengen Agreement. There already have been precedents in EU treaties and agreement for exemptions. The UK Government can exempt the Republic of Ireland from the end of freedom of movement of people after the UK leave the EU. The Brexiters as you call them wanted freedom of movement to end from mainland Europe and not from the Republic of Ireland, who the UK made arrangements with before both countries joined the EEC.

 

---------- Post added 21-07-2018 at 11:46 ----------

 

I haven't suggested checkpoints on the border. Mrs May has not suggested checkpoints on the border. A technical solution mean any checks will take place away from the border.

If you have free movement across the NI border then you have de facto free movement from the EU into the U.K.

Absolutely nothing has changed.

If you have free movement across the NI border then you have de facto free movement from the EU into the U.K.

 

Absolutely nothing has changed.

Nothing has changed yet. However, things will change after the UK leave the EU. Why do you think the UK and the EU are negotiating about what will happen after the UK leave the EU? The fact is the UK will be able to allow free movement across the border from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland regardless of what the EU say.