How do Sheffield road planners get it so wrong?

Exactly, without any proof your belief isn't enough to actually make them factual.

Errr, yes. But since nobody has asked for proof...

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 09:25 ----------

Councils are anti-car,

Opinion? You've provided no proof.

The road network cannot cope with demand, it is just a series of bottlenecks and any improvements just move the problem.

Hmm, again.

The anti-car stance is only ever going to get worse with the new air quality regulations.

I hesitate to ask...

 

Car ownership and the right to travel when and where you want is an aspiration and seen as a right, no amount of carrot will get people out of their cars so its all stick stick stick.

Well, is that an opinion?

 

If you actually think about it, the council do a lot to encourage walking and cycling and the use of public transport, i

I have actually asked for the proof for this one.

See, it's quite easy to post a whole bunch of stuff without providing the evidence. I do it, you do it. If you want the proof of something, just ask, rather than telling me that I'm just posting opinions.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 09:29 ----------

 

The examples include, funding the tram, funding bus gates, bus priority measures, ensuring new employers provide facilities for cyclists as part of the planning process, removing obstacles for pedestrians, such as underpasses in include just a few.

 

We all want a monorail but no one wants to pay for it.

Funding the tram? We're going back 20 years then?

Following a parliamentary act in 1985 authorising the scheme, the Supertram line was built by the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (SYPTE) at a cost of £240 million,[3] and opened in stages in 1994/95. It was operated by South Yorkshire Supertram Limited,[4] a wholly owned subsidiary company of SYPTE. In December 1997, the company was sold to Stagecoach for £1.15 million.[5] Stagecoach gained the concession to maintain and operate the Supertram trams until 2024.[6] Patronage has grown from 7.8 million passenger journeys in 1996/97, to 15.0 million in 2011/12.[7] In 2016/17 it carried 12.6 million passengers.[1]

Did SCC fund it?

The first predictions of passenger numbers were well off the mark and there was concern the £240m it took to build the system was looking like poor value for money.

People in South Yorkshire were paying for a network that looked like it was not going anywhere. Who should bear the cost became a big issue.

In 1998, a deal was done with the then Labour government so that costs were reduced, but people living in South Yorkshire were paying 5p a week each for Supertram. And they will still be paying for it for another 10 years.

It appears to have been funded as a county wide thing...

Funding bus gates is an example of stick and carrot combined at best, bus gates impede motorists and waste space for a minority of vehicles. The same applies for any bus priority measure. By giving the bus priority you are removing priority from other traffic. SCC have no choice about requiring planning applications to include sustainable transport.

Removing underpasses as an example of making it better for pedestrians? Surely the opposite. Instead of keeping traffic and pedestrians separate and both moving, they put in a new surface crossing and everybody gets inconvenienced...

How about cycling, perhaps the excellent new cycling infrastructure of pointless cycle lanes that go nowhere, are filled with debris and cede priority at every side road?

As the fourth (fifth or sixth practically) biggest city in the country we have two 'A' roads, an inner ring road and half an outer ring road.

its our topography, hills make it so difficult to have a road infrastructure like Leeds or Manchester.

Meadowhead roundabout.... rebuilt a couple of years ago, and again now.

It is a way of keeping otherwise unemployable people in work.

This isn't being fully paid for by the council but the developers of the retail park which is why it is being redone due to increased traffic

You can have it both ways of course, they're called give way junctions. Or of course the roundabout.

 

You could be correct, perhaps for some reason they made Halifax Road a 40, and they made Netherthorpe Road a 40, but the section between, that at the time went through only industrial areas, they actively decided to make that a 30 zone, a wide, dual carriageway access to the city from the north 30 zone.

I'm not sure which would be worse, forgetting to apply for the 40 zone, or deliberately making it a 30 for no good reason.

Councils have to build to design standards which are advised by Government. There are criteria for where a give way junction, stop line, a roundabout or traffic signals are appropriate. Signals are provided because they are the appropriate measure in that location.

Do you seriously think that significant streams (not just the odd vehicle) of traffic can carry out right turns across busy dual carriageway roads safely and efficiently on give ways?

Roundabouts are ok where flows are pretty even. When they are tidal, as on a ring road, they are not so good and you often see them having traffic signals to break up flows so other approaches can actually get onto the roundabout. Roundabouts are less space efficient than signalised junctions. Roundabouts aren't good at providing adequate pedestrian crossing facilities where pedestrians want to cross.

Regarding your complaints about replacing underpasses with surface level crossings, ask a few pedestrians which they prefer, particularly in the hours of darkness. No good having an underpass which people won't use for a good part of the time and where they endanger themselves by jumping barriers to get across the road at surface level.

And lastly, they don't choose speed limits for "no good reason". There is always a good reason at the time it is designed. For any new road, a primary consideration is what the speed limit is going to be. It affects the way you design the road layout and it's infrastructure (lighting, barriers, signals etc), so you need to know at the outset.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 13:10 ----------

The council do nothing to make walking, cycling or any public transport an alternative. The fact that alternatives exist doesn't mean you can credit the council with encouraging their use.

This, in common with a lot of the other stuff you are spouting is utter nonsense.

SCC's 2017/18 capital programme features the following spend on projects:

Accessibility improvements (Walking) - £1.5m

Cycling - £3.9m

Public Transport Improvements - £4.6m

That's just in one year.

To suggest they do nothing is plainly ridiculous.

Who is it a barrier to though? Most of Penistone Rd doesn't run through residential areas. You rarely see pedestrians near it, why would they be, walking from Upperthorpe to Neepsend perhaps? Or Hillsborough to Shirecliffe?.

Free flowing traffic is better for the environment and everyone involved.

The replies are car centred to the point that you still miss the point about Penistone Road.

Yes it is a dual carriageway.

But it cannot be an expressway if was it would act as a barrier to traffic joining and crossing. This is mostly cars and a significant proportion of which are travelling to/from the very densely populated Fulwood/Crosspool/Crookes/Walkley area and the North East, East Sheffield, Motorway, Don Valley, Rotherham etc.

Because there are pedestrian crossings at the reduced number of road junctions does not indicate that they were built because the council want you to walk, in fact all/nearly(?) are not pedestrian activated and are part of the cycle which enables to join/cross Penistone Road.

Well given that I spend more time on my bike than I do driving perhaps it's not my bias that is the problem here...

In reality PR travels at 40mph, and sometimes faster. If you drove on it you'd be aware of this. Traffic slows at the speed camera site, and then speeds up again immediately.

I'm confused by the cross traffic you're identifying though. Fulwood? Seriously. So they've driven through Broomhill and upperthorpe have they? In order to go where? East Sheffield, so basically the Northern General, and that's about it.

Nobody crosses PR to head to the motorway, they join it and either go North out of the city using it, or to the inner RR in order to reach the parkway to go south.

You appear to be grasping at straws as to why it's a 30 zone, particularly given that the limit is routinely ignored by about 90% of the traffic.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 17:04 ----------

C

This, in common with a lot of the other stuff you are spouting is utter nonsense.

 

 

SCC's 2017/18 capital programme features the following spend on projects:

Accessibility improvements (Walking) - £1.5m

Cycling - £3.9m

Public Transport Improvements - £4.6m

 

That's just in one year.

 

To suggest they do nothing is plainly ridiculous.

So what has £3.9m been spent on with regards to cycling this year? I'm fascinated.

---------- Post added 21-09-2017 at 17:06 ----------

Councils have to build to design standards which are advised by Government. There are criteria for where a give way junction, stop line, a roundabout or traffic signals are appropriate. Signals are provided because they are the appropriate measure in that location.

 

Do you seriously think that significant streams (not just the odd vehicle) of traffic can carry out right turns across busy dual carriageway roads safely and efficiently on give ways?

No I don't. But there are traffic lights at minor side roads which turn left on DDW, side roads where the number of cars can be counted on 1 hand for 10's of minutes and which have a pointless green cycle multiple times despite having no traffic present.

 

Roundabouts are ok where flows are pretty even. When they are tidal, as on a ring road, they are not so good and you often see them having traffic signals to break up flows so other approaches can actually get onto the roundabout. Roundabouts are less space efficient than signalised junctions. Roundabouts aren't good at providing adequate pedestrian crossing facilities where pedestrians want to cross.

 

Regarding your complaints about replacing underpasses with surface level crossings, ask a few pedestrians which they prefer, particularly in the hours of darkness. No good having an underpass which people won't use for a good part of the time and where they endanger themselves by jumping barriers to get across the road at surface level.

 

And lastly, they don't choose speed limits for "no good reason". There is always a good reason at the time it is designed. For any new road, a primary consideration is what the speed limit is going to be. It affects the way you design the road layout and it's infrastructure (lighting, barriers, signals etc), so you need to know at the outset.

We both know that the A57 limit was reduced despite the SCC arranged report which said that there was no reason to do so.

...

 

I'm confused by the cross traffic you're identifying though. Fulwood? Seriously. So they've driven through Broomhill and upperthorpe have they? In order to go where? East Sheffield, so basically the Northern General, and that's about it.

Nobody crosses PR to head to the motorway, they join it and either go North out of the city using it, or to the inner RR in order to reach the parkway to go south.

 

.

Maybe you would be less confused if your view was clouded by the perspective of you own journey, I did say "to/from" and its no good ignoring "etc." and "joining".

There are no major crossroads on Penistone Road so the traffic flow must join and then cross one or both carriageways if they need to.

From our experience of traffic congestion and living in S10 our options for M1 north and south is joining PR at Albert Terrace Road (Halifax or Rutland Road for M1 north, Shalesmoor/Parkway for M1 South. Rutland Road also provides the best route in the direction of NGH, Don Valley, Brightside, Meadowhall Rotherham (and IKEA). Their is of course a counter flow in the other direction from East and North East Sheffield to the University(parts) schools (inc.5 secondary), 5 hospitals, offices etc in S10.

These journeys are now much easier because of Supertram - a puzzle to sleep on?

As the fourth (fifth or sixth practically) biggest city in the country we have two 'A' roads, an inner ring road and half an outer ring road.

 

its our topography, hills make it so difficult to have a road infrastructure like Leeds or Manchester.

Whys that ? Cannot cars go up or down hills ?

Maybe you would be less confused if your view was clouded by the perspective of you own journey, I did say "to/from" and its no good ignoring "etc." and "joining".

You did say "to and from" yet you can't explain why those journeys might take place or how common they might be.

There are no major crossroads on Penistone Road so the traffic flow must join and then cross one or both carriageways if they need to.

There's the roundabout at Leppings Lane, and the roundabout at Shalesmoor. There's about 2 miles between them with only 2 (majorish) roads heading towards the West, both of which as you say require joining PR for a few metres before turning off it again.

My own journey obviously informs my opinion, but I can see other traffic.

How often do you actually use this road to have an informed opinion yourself?

 

From our experience of traffic congestion and living in S10 our options for M1 north and south is joining PR at Albert Terrace Road (Halifax or Rutland Road for M1 north, Shalesmoor/Parkway for M1 South. Rutland Road also provides the best route in the direction of NGH, Don Valley, Brightside, Meadowhall Rotherham (and IKEA). Their is of course a counter flow in the other direction from East and North East Sheffield to the University(parts) schools (inc.5 secondary), 5 hospitals, offices etc in S10.

 

These journeys are now much easier because of Supertram - a puzzle to sleep on?

I use Rutland Rd sometimes, but I'd say that going down DDW and then through Attercliffe is the quicker route most of the time, which wouldn't require you to cross PR, only to join it.

But given that you join at ATR, a traffic light controlled junction, how do you think that justifies the 30 limit? Given that most people speed up to 40 immediately after that camera anyway why do you think a 40 limit would be wrong?

You did say "to and from" yet you can't explain why those journeys might take place or how common they might be.

There's the roundabout at Leppings Lane...

You ask me how often I use this road.

More often than someone who says:

"There's the roundabout at Leppings Lane..." Gone in 2014.

You say I can't explain why those journeys might take place or how common they might be.

I will repeat my explanation:

"Rutland Road also provides the best route in the direction of NGH, Don Valley, Brightside, Meadowhall Rotherham (and IKEA). Their is of course a counter flow in the other direction from East and North East Sheffield to the University(parts) schools (inc.5 secondary), 5 hospitals, offices etc in S10."

You ask "How often do you actually use this road to have an informed opinion yourself?"

Every time I go to the NGH via Herries or Rutland Road, Sheffield College, Oughtibridge, Shiregreen, Brightside, Rotherham, Meadowhall, Meadowhall Station, M1 North. At random times between 7am and 8pm.

I travel by car, bicycle, H1,97,98 and 38 buses and on foot between Sheffield College, Hillsborough Park, Hillsborough Corner, Morrisons etc.

You ask why a 40 mph limit is too high.

Right hand filtering traffic slower than left hand lane.

Reduced traffic flow because of standing waves caused by rapid deceleration.

Running lights at 40 is more dangerous than at 30.

Mixed traffic behaviour encourages lane hopping and undertaking which is more dangerous at a higher speed. More?

Why is this stretch any different from many other stretches of the ring road that have 40mph traffic lights, filters, junctions, roundabouts etc.

This isn't being fully paid for by the council but the developers of the retail park which is why it is being redone due to increased traffic

The clue is in the word "Planning" obviously a lack of it!