L00b 441 #145 Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) To be sure, having dual UK / Irish citizenship means I'll call who the bloody hell I like old chap. Here's to hoping that Arlene & Co's antics don't end up scuppering the GFA for your sake, then; and that Brextremists don't exercise their regained sovereignty to cancel out British citizens' entitlement to hold multiple citizenships. After all, we're clearly in the strangest political times, and in the land of the impossible made possible: they'll still need someone else to blame, when they've run out of continentals The decision for the Irish border issue to be agreed before trade negotiations can begin, seems ludicrous, given what is happening. Surely it would make more sense to agree Brexit trade negotiations with the EU, then discuss the border.The decision to make trade talks in phase 2 conditional upon first securing agreement about the Irish border, citizen's rights and the exit bill in phase 1 was made by the EU27 collectively, laid out to Davis on day one of the Article 50 negotiations, and Davis agreed to it on day one still. The end. Or do you now propose for the UK government to go back on its word? Edited December 7, 2017 by L00b Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Lockdoctor 10 #146 Posted December 7, 2017 The decision to make trade talks in phase 2 conditional upon first securing agreement about the Irish border, citizen's rights and the exit bill in phase 1 was made by the EU27 collectively, laid out to Davis on day one of the Article 50 negotiations, and Davis agreed to it on day one still. The end. Or do you now propose for the UK government to go back on its word? It was clearly a poor decision. It would make sense for the EU, the 27 and the UK to agree to move the Irish border issue into phase 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
L00b 441 #147 Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) It was clearly a poor decision. It would make sense for the EU, the 27 and the UK to agree to move the Irish border issue into phase 2.Er, not really. It makes perfect sense for the UK, because it gives the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge, and which is exactly why you're posting the way you do, and acessorily convincing no-one who understands the issue from a factual and legal point of view. It doesn't make the least bit of sense for the EU27, because it threatens the integrity fo the Single Market for the exact same reason (giving the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge), and which is exactly why they made it a phase 1 issue. As evidenced by the fact that the EU27 are still as united about it right now, as they were back in March 2017, and rooting for Varadkar. Far from a 'poor decision' by the EU, it was a very decent snookering move. The UK was at all times able to escape the snookering with a proposal about the NI border, which May nearly achieved on Monday. But it's May who completed the snookering all by herself, when she formed her alliance with the DUP, for whom anything Dublin says or does is anatema. Nobody else but the Tories to blame for this mess with NI. Edited December 7, 2017 by L00b Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Lockdoctor 10 #148 Posted December 7, 2017 Er, not really. It makes perfect sense for the UK, because it gives the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge, and which is exactly why you're posting the way you do, and acessorily convincing no-one who understands the issue from a factual and legal point of view. It doesn't make the least bit of sense for the EU27, because it threatens the integrity fo the Single Market for the exact same reason (giving the UK a thin end of the cake-and-eating-it wedge), and which is exactly why they made it a phase 1 issue. As evidenced by the fact that the EU27 are still as united about it right now, as they were back in March 2017, and rooting for Varadkar. Far from a 'poor decision' by the EU, it was a very decent snookering move. The UK was at all times able to escape the snookering with a proposal about the NI border, which May nearly achieved on Monday. But it's May who completed the snookering all by herself, when she formed her alliance with the DUP, for whom anything Dublin says or does is anatema. Nobody else but the Tories to blame for this mess with NI. The best thing for the UK is to walk away from the whole negotiating process now, if there is no flexibility about putting the Irish Border issue on hold. It would be ludicrous for the UK to agree to anything regarding the Irish border, which will affect the whole of the UK before trade negotiations have been discussed with the EU. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Geo-atkinson 10 #149 Posted December 7, 2017 The best thing for the UK is to walk away from the whole negotiating process now, if there is no flexibility about putting the Irish Border issue on hold. It would be ludicrous for the UK to agree to anything regarding the Irish border, which will affect the whole of the UK before trade negotiations have been discussed with the EU. Those who wanted independence will get isolation... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
L00b 441 #150 Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) The best thing for the UK is to walk away from the whole negotiating process now, if there is no flexibility about putting the Irish Border issue on hold. It would be ludicrous for the UK to agree to anything regarding the Irish border, which will affect the whole of the UK before trade negotiations have been discussed with the EU.Well, May should have thought of that before forming an alliance with the most ultras of nationalists to be found in Northern Ireland. But we are where we are. To walk away from the whole negotiating process now is absolutely not "the best thing" for the UK, for reasons already long explained on here lengthways and sideways (-but constantly hand-waved away as 'Project Fear'). The silver lining of the current EU/UK/Irish border shenanigans however -and Ireland did the UK a massive favor in that respect- is that for the first time, the dialog within the UK has started to focus on the real economic pain of Brexit, to arise from regulatory issues (alignment or divergence): bad as tariffs can be, particularly for sectors such as agriculture, regulation can stop dead trade in any given area. And will absolutely do so overnight in the case of a no deal "hard" Brexit, however much you refuse to believe it. The DUP want an open border with RoI, and no border at all with the UK. They want what they’ve currently got, in other words. That’s a perfectly reasonable thing to want. The corollary of wanting it, though, is that the UK has to tailor its Brexit to fit it. That means a Brexit that maintains substantial regulatory alignment across the UK. So far as I can see, the DUP would be happy with that. It’s the Tory europhobes who would not be. So what this episode is doing, is drawing to the attention of the UK the true nature of the control that it has (which is control over the balance to be struck between regulatory freedom and trade integration); bringing home to the UK that this is the only control it ever will have; and putting the UK in the position where it actually has to exercise that control. There can't be much more irony in the fact that the UK has demanded “control” for so long, yet Brexiters in the UK government are still trying so hard to avoid exercising it. But not any more: at this point, failure to make a choice is itself a choice. The Article 50 clock is running. If the UK can’t decide now what balance it wants to strike, the power to make any choice at all about this will shortly pass from them. The UK has to make a choice about what it wants out of Brexit. Simple as. Now. Time's up. Edited December 7, 2017 by L00b Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Geo-atkinson 10 #151 Posted December 7, 2017 The clock is still ticking. We are making a big fuss about this situation but in all honesty, to the EU this is nothing more than a squabble. It's no more important to them than the situation in Spain or in Cyprus. I am surprised that the EU was willing to accept Mrs May's proposal and to go along with a special status for Northern Ireland. Well they've done their bit. If we can't sort this out now come the hour the border with the Republic will be closed.... By Brussels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Lockdoctor 10 #152 Posted December 7, 2017 The clock is still ticking. We are making a big fuss about this situation but in all honesty, to the EU this is nothing more than a squabble. It's no more important to them than the situation in Spain or in Cyprus. I am surprised that the EU was willing to accept Mrs May's proposal and to go along with a special status for Northern Ireland. Well they've done their bit. If we can't sort this out now come the hour the border with the Republic will be closed.... By Brussels. In all honesty the Businesses based in EU members will be frustrated that trade negotiations haven't started. The politicians are causing the problems. The UK Government really now needs to be getting tough. They could start by closing one Irish Border crossing every week. A no deal means a hard border and the UK should start preparations for that possibility. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Robin-H 11 #153 Posted December 7, 2017 In all honesty the Businesses based in EU members will be frustrated that trade negotiations haven't started. The politicians are causing the problems. The UK Government really now needs to be getting tough. They could start by closing one Irish Border crossing every week. A no deal means a hard border and the UK should start preparations for that possibility. We are still in the EU. We couldn't close borders between the UK and Ireland even if we wanted to (which I'm pretty sure we don't..) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
El Cid 220 #154 Posted December 7, 2017 The UK has to make a choice about what it wants out of Brexit. Simple as. Now. Time's up. Some of the people of the UK voted to leave, but the majority of MPs wanted to remain in the EU. I wonder how that will pan out? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Magilla 510 #155 Posted December 7, 2017 Some of the people of the UK voted to leave, but the majority of MPs wanted to remain in the EU. I wonder how that will pan out? Suspect that as the economic reality starts to become more apparent in their constituancies, they'll realise their careers are effectively over no matter what happens. At that point we might see some develop a backbone and stand up to the more extreme Brexit loons in government. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Lockdoctor 10 #156 Posted December 7, 2017 Some of the people of the UK voted to leave, but the majority of MPs wanted to remain in the EU. I wonder how that will pan out? That is the problem. If the majority of MPs wanted to leave, then there wouldn't have been a election and things would be panning out much better. ---------- Post added 07-12-2017 at 12:29 ---------- We are still in the EU. We couldn't close borders between the UK and Ireland even if we wanted to (which I'm pretty sure we don't..) There is nothing to stop the UK digging up roads anywhere in the UK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...