Grahame

You should go back and read the OP. It requires us to assume god and satin are real.

Yes, well talk between yourselves and assume what you like.

I honestly dont think an atheist can blame god, by definition of their viewpoint.

 

Can you find a post that says this so we can talk about it (and crush them - lol).

Look at the earthquake threads, or even on this one. Here is an example

I’m not blaming other people, God created the environment, God created the person with DNA making them more predisposed to violence, and God gave him the unloving violent parents, God chose not to tell him about forgiveness. Then according to you god will choose to punish him.

Not fair, not just, not loving.

This brings me back to this; if god exists then God is both God and Satin at the same time.

Its OK; I understand your pain

 

But you do have to concede that there's an awful lot of corruption in the church... And we have to ask why!

Everything would be perfect if people kept to the teaching of Jesus. If they don't and are corrupt I don't see how they can call themselves CHRISTians.

I have to make a separate comment about this as I can't quite believe it! Are you seriously making this comment to an atheist? It makes literally no sense at all!

So why do atheists come on here and blame God for everything if it isn't hypocrisy, or trouble making and what does it say about them?

I will rewrite this for you to make it more accurate.

Right from the beginning of time some people have believed in Gods and as with Abraham and all the other Old Testament saints, it was their faith that made them right with God

Judging by the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians Babylonians and the rest of the ancient world I don't think there are very many who haven't believed in a god of some sort even if it was only the planets.

Woah there, cowboy! This attack on me was unnecessary, especially when you just attacked ME for the very thing I am continually promoting in my posts!

 

Did you just feel particularly vindictive today, as you're adopting this people are responsible slant, which is what I have maintained for years on here. No Satan, no evil forces, just the light and dark of humanity.

 

And, as for the goody goody comment, I've said all along that I do both light and dark actions... I'm totally up front with no hidden agenda and nothing to hide!

OK well I am sorry about the attack but I have been holding back for years and have been very patient with people while they have been hurling insults right left and centre while people make up all sorts of silly ideas and I think it is about time we had a few home truths.

The barrier preventing people forgiving someone for doing them arm can be seen in the actions of the people concerned. Just as love and ate can be seen and measured in the action of people..

If a person has never been told of God, knows nothing of God or about asking for forgiveness and the surrounding were not of their making. They cannot choose to ask for forgiveness because God hasn’t chosen to inform them of his existence.

The barriers between this person and God are imposed by God, just as the barriers between a child and father would be imposed by the mother if she chooses not to tell the child who the father is. In your world you blame the child for not knowing the father.

 

In your world God is ready to forgive people but God isn’t ready to treat all people fairly because God doesn’t give everyone an equal opportunity to know him.

Right from the beginning of time people have believed in God and as with Abraham and all the other Old Testament saints, it was their faith that made them right with God.

This is what I've been saying (sort of) for years and which you recently seem to have adopted (a good thing, by the way!). But, this should have nothing to do with god; we should all be trying to better our relationships - I can't see how any of this has anything to do with god; forgiveness comes from within; one should not seek approval or atonement from another.

 

Maybe this attitude is why the world's churches are filled with corruption, because people can shift the responsibility onto another...?

Forgiveness one for another is so important for anyone and of course for believers there is no salvation without the forgiveness of God which is why our hearts need to be right with him.

But if you don't mind what comes through very strongly in your post is your hypocrisy because if you read all the religious threads, what the atheists do all the time is to say how good they are and talk about humanism without admitting that all the bad stuff that is happening in the world around us is caused by mankind. Then to top it all, everything that is wrong in the world according to the people on here is all God's fault and nothing to do with humankind who are actually doing it.

My my aren't you the goody goody little hypocrite shifting the blame onto God, who you don't believe in anyway. Talk about shifting the responsibility! People are responsible!! OK.

well from your response, I'm trying to figure the same thing out. You were the one who said:-

What it boils down to is that regardless of who or what we are we have all offended people at one time or another and at the same time other people have harmed, hurt and offended us. What are we to do, store it up for the rest of our life, brood over it and let resentment build up or are we to deal with it and bring it to a conclusion and hopefully restore friendship and relationship. If that cannot be done at least a lot of hurt and bad feeling has been dealt with and it feels like a load has been removed from off our back. It needs for us to be honest with ourselves and for us to take ownership of our part in the affair whether it was through stubbornness, selfishness, a foolish act or for any other reason. For our own sake and the sake of others it needs to be dealt with and whether it is only perceived or real, where there are barriers forgiveness breaks them down.

Whatever the reason for the barrier between people, although it cannot be seen, weighed or measured and so according to the atheist who does not believe in God does not exist never-the-less is very real and it needs to be dealt with, and the same goes for our relationship with God because just as there are barriers between ourselves and others, even though they are invisible, so to there are barriers between ourselves and God which are self imposed. Oftentimes it means a breaking down of the barrier that is within our own heart and accepting the fact that we are sinners and asking those we have sinned against including God to forgive us which means repenting of our own wrong doing.

Fortunately for us God is always ready and willing to forgive us our sins and we are promised in Hebrews 8:12 that God will “forgive our wickedness and will remember our sins no more.” We are reminded of the words of Jesus who said “Your sins are forgiven. Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Luke 7.48-50 and these words remind us of Jeremiah in Lamentations 3.22-23 who said “The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning” for which I thank God.

May God bless.

I’m not blaming other people, God created the environment, God created the person with DNA making them more predisposed to violence, and God gave him the unloving violent parents, God chose not to tell him about forgiveness. Then according to you god will choose to punish him.

Not fair, not just, not loving.

This brings me back to this; if god exists then God is both God and Satin at the same time.

Yeh, like you can have wooden iron, and hot ice.

I'm not disputing that but this person has never been told of God, knows nothing of God or about asking for forgiveness and the surrounding were not of their making. They cannot choose to ask for forgiveness because God hasn’t chose to inform them of his existence.

If God now chooses to punish this person then God is not a just or fair God.

If someone decides to mug an old lady and rob her of her pension, that is their choice, equally it is their choice not to. It's no good trying to blame other people.

If you decide to break the speed limit and you get caught, it's no good blaming the speed camera, or the government for putting it there or the coppers, it was your decision and don't go blaming anyone else whether you have heard of God or not. Either way you will get done. It is called justice. Goodnight.

But the child with crap violent parents and rubbish DNA that turned out bad has never been told about God, knows nothing of God or about asking for forgiveness, again not this persons fault but the fault of their averment and upbringing.

True, but it is their choice what they do.

By the way I have some experience of this at work and I admit environment is a strong influence, but it is their surrounding that are to blame not God.

If you want to bring God into it just let me say there are hardened criminals who have had wonderful conversions and are changed people.

So, god forgives my former neighbours' children for having to be taken into care, in order to protect them from the neglectful, feckless imbeciles they had to call their parents?

 

My schoolfriend is forgiven for being raped by, and having a child to, her paedophile father, is she?

Why do they need forgiveness for the sins of others?

So does God forgive every one then?

Yes it is for everyone, the 'whosoever' which is those who believe on him and repent of their sins.

Some people add other conditions but I think repentance is sufficient provided it is genuine.

And the choices you make are determined by how you were built (DNA) and the environment you were brought up in.

 

If God gives one child loving caring parents and good DNA and they turn out good, he rewards them.

 

If God gives another child crap violent parents and rubbish DNA and they turn out bad he punishes them.

 

So God isn’t a fair God.

God knows this and has provided a solution called forgiveness.

Who/what gave us the capacity to want things?

Ourselves. We were given the ability to say no. If we do wrong it is our choice.

Who said anything about being taught?

 

I asked who/what gave us the capacity to do evil, nothing about teaching.

He has eyes to see and hands to take. Are you saying we should be born blind and limbless.

Again, who/what gave us the capacity to do/teach evil?

We see a bag of sweets and we want it. Did someone teach you that?

No it doesn't choose, choices are made on its behalf by its parents.

 

This is the part of my post your obviously didn't read.

When you or I do wrong it is our choice.

I haven’t said children are born innocent, humans are in part a product of their genetic makeup and environment, some people are more prone to anger and violence than others. A child doesn’t choose its parents, its surrounding or its education, so if they end up bad it isn’t always their choice.

 

A child born to a violent couple, surrounded by daily violence, living in a poor area and getting little or no education is more likely to be violent than a child born into a loving caring relationship and a peaceful environment.

Back to your problem, if god created something beautiful that was broken by something else that was beautiful and God is all knowing. God must have known that the beautiful object would be broken so is therefore still responsible.

A baby is born innocent. If you have seen a baby lie, steal, commit murder and rape please let me know.

Then the innocent baby turns to its own ways. It wasn't created evil, it was his choice for whatever reason.

So who destroyed it and who created the person that destroyed it?

You said yourself that a baby is born innocent. We learn to be wicked and disobedient, it never was created, except we create it ourselves.

If I created a beautiful object and at the same time I created something I knew would destroy the beautiful object then it’s my fault the object was destroyed.

You only created a beautiful object and you saw that it was good.

God was Jesus and you say Jesus had no faults so God had no faults, if God isn’t satin at the same time as being God then God must have created satin and evil.

So why do you think God created satin and evil if he is faultless?

We have been there remember?

If you created a beautiful object and someone destroyed it, how could you be blamed for that persons 'wicked' act? Did you create the wickedness?

Have you ever been the india rubber man? He used to be able to tie himself in knots. You spout about being full of love Grahame but from some of your posts that is so not true, you can't abide gays, muslims, women who have abortions - in fact anyone who doesn't conform to your moral high ground. So saying you are filled with love, joy and peace and then NOT is another lie

Have you not heard of sarcasm denlin?

GOD IS FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT

 

God is Jesus and his own father, God is omnipotent there for he can be anything and everything at the same time.

God didn’t create evil, or the devil, God is evil and the devil at the same time as being an all loving God. The fact that God is omnipotent allows there to be contradiction in everything he does.

This is why the creation of man that is God can exist without proof In the heads of those that believe.

There was no fault found in Jesus and God is not satan, unless you follow a false god.