Anna B

Except for Hedgefund managers, and money investors... As for trickle down, if the rich have doubled their money, how come we haven't seen our money rise? I am simply quoting from the renowned economists on the programme who I assume know what they are talking about. ---------- Post added 27-01-2015 at 19:41 ---------- Again I am quoting their words - yes, the UK is most difinately a tax haven. And I have also often read it in financial papers. ---------- Post added 27-01-2015 at 19:47 ---------- A few hospitals, schools, a hospice or two? The list is endless. Lots of good causes would appreciate a few quid thrown in their direction rather than adding another diamond necklace or yacht to his collection.

No, we are talking about a handful of super rich individuals who actually distort the figures with their immense wealth. They are very rich, but the nation is not. They live here because Britain is now the world's biggest tax haven. They assiduously avoid tax. Nor can a handful of individuals consume enough to make much difference to mainstrean output or services. They spend mostly in rarified top end goods such as diamonds and investment pieces, therefore the wealth does not trickle down. If it did we would all be better off and our income would be rising but it is not. Their income has doubled since the 1980's, ours has gone down. They are, however, useful to the government in that they help disguise the fact that the majority in this country are worse off while they make the figures look comparitively rosey. Not my words but those of one of the world's top Economists, Nick Hanauer. I sugest you watch BBC2's documentary 'The Super-Rich and Us' - The effects billionaires are having on Britain's economy. You might just change your mind.

It's a pity that most people haven't grasped the fact that employment figures are actually a work of fiction and manipulation, as your maths seems to prove. They are meaningless in the real sense, as are most statistics, in that they can be used by devious politicians and their advisors to prove / disprove almost anything.

All the chess pieces are being put in place before the proverbial hits the fan. It's no coincidence...

I am not trying to undermine it. Let's not forget that these allegations go back to the 1980's when they were first brought to the attention of Parliament by Geoffrey Dickens MP because they were not being investigated. How long does it take to make enquiries? 30+ years can hardly be called demanding 'instant' justice.

They are hoping if they delay it long enough it will go away and we'll all forget about it. We have to make sure that this time it doesn't. Keep the pressure up.

The police themselves have been doing much of the silencing, so not much point in going to them. Many victims have reported abuse by politicians to the police only to find it has been ignored and not even investigated. which is rather the point. Remember many people reported Jimmy Saville to the police only to be told to go away or they would be arrested.

My point exactly. ---------- Post added 26-01-2015 at 13:04 ---------- Also very true. Why are we still denying these people the simple right to justice in open court.

Simply ask yourself why it is so difficult to bring this issue to court and shed the light of day and publicity on it. And why it is always referred to as 'historical'? How do they know it isn't still going on?

What always surprises me is the different attitudes to poverty here in the UK to that in other countries. We show sympathy when we see hunger and poverty in other countries - we don't berate them to 'get a job' and to 'pull their socks up' or blame them for the situation they're in. We blame their governments and we often give generously to help them. Here, all (except the last,) of the above apply. Anyone who doesn't think we are not now becoming a third world country in all but name need to get out more and see how other countries are coming up in the world as ours goes down. The definition of a third world country, by the way, is the size of the disparity between rich and poor. With short term contracts, 0 hours, etc, working (and working very hard) is no longer a way out of debt and poverty.

I wonder why they mentioned it in the first place?

What with Britain's official secrets Act and America and it Black Ops are we ever going to find out anything...?

So why are they saying 'underage.'

American millionaire, Jeffrey Epstein, a convicted paedophile, is a friend of Prince Andrew's, (in spite of conviction.) In a court case in America, one of Epstein's victims has accused Prince Andrew of having underage sex with her on several occasions. The palace denies it. Rumours have been doing the rounds for years that the current allegations of a paedophile ring in Westminster and the 'establishment' does indeed include members of the royal family and royal household. Make your own mind up.

[/color] Fair enough. (Though I would probably dispute your last sentence.) But you haven't answered my main question; Do you think it's right to do 'favours' which go against the law for fellow members? Serious question, I'm interested in your point of view. And, to take the discussion on further, what do you make of the Queen's quote to Paul Burrell, that 'Dark forces were at work...'?

Nothing wrong with it at all if that's what it is, (and I've read things about it that does make it sound very benign.) But why is it a 'secret' society shrouded in mystery? It's not the Rotary club after all. As with the legal profession, which also wears strange clothes and talks in a particular language, I believe it stems purely from elitism; a closed shop to exclude outsiders. As for being 'nice' to people, don't you mean being 'nice' to other members of the group? And where does this cross the boundary from doing favours, into croneyism and downright corruption? Do you think that's right?

I'm sure that a lot of kids don't really value or appreciate their education, they certainly don't see it as a privilege, and neither do their parents. We really have to change that, and it's not for want of teachers trying. There just seems to be this hard core, as you say, of wilfully stupid and disruptive pupils, who can have an adverse effect in a classroom far beyond their small number. It's such a pity. The amount of time and effort that goes into trying to get these kids on side is phenominal, and still doesn't always work. We are battling some serious psychological damage in some cases with very little help. Unfortunately with more and more pressure on teachers, it's difficult to find sufficient time to do this well enough. And outside sources of help such as psychological services have been cut. I also read recently that for reasons unknown, the number of autism cases is increasing significantly. I don't know what the situation is these days, but when I was teaching, getting a child a 'statement of need,' then getting the child the actual help required, was very very difficult and in some cases could take years.

I have to agree with you Mecky, the honours system is a joke. There seems to be no real rhyme or reason to who gets one. It's just a form of favouritism / croneyism. There's always a smattering of a few ordinary people, much publicised, to keep the proles happy, and usually a token Lollipop lady to show us that even the most humble can get awards too.... but the vast majority of Gongs, and certainly Knighthoods, go to civil servants (whom we've never heard of,) for just doing their job - for which they are already very well paid. And to push a few unelected, chosen people into the House of Lords. I notice Gary Verity, who brought the Tour de France to Yorkshire, didn't get a mention, and if we're going to have awards, what about, say, Ken Dodd, who's spent a lifetime bringing happiness to people?

Happy New Year to all my fellow Forumers! I'm hoping that you all have a good 2015 with lots of love, friendship and many good things.

Good points. Chinese are not known for innovation or design skills either. The richer Chinese do still send their children to English universities to get a more all rounded education. But I still think a lot of British kids need to up their game.

No, personally I don't think schools are getting better, and many are very set in their ways.We have to do a lot more to keep up with countries like China, where the kids expect to work so much harder at their education. That includes a longer school day, a lot more homework and Saturday classes as well. On top of that a lot of their outside interests are to do with science, computing, cultural and educational stuff. Chinese kids aren't allowed (or would expect) to ever waste their time. I'm not saying that's right, but it is what we're up against in a Global society, if we want our kids to succeed. We have 'child centred' education which is about the wellbeing of the child, in other words, soft. China's is about the bigger picture; the wellbeing of the country. It is considered to be every child's duty, (and in their own interests also,) to work hard in school so that they will become productive citizens. To that end the government invests heavily in education and training, and a little goes a long way in China. We, on the other hand always seem to be scrimping and trying to do things on the cheap. (I know education is ring fenced, but the money goes to all the wrong places. With the money that's been invested/wasted over the years, we should have been able to cut class sizes in half.) And we don't train enough people properly any more, which is why we have to import people to do the jobs we used to do so well. Old skills are being lost and are not being replaced by new ones. Many European schools are now teaching Chinese Mandarin as a foreign language. We barely teach French, and not well even then. Can you imagine us trying to teach Mandarin? Where is the forward planning? Frankly, we are being left behind, and really need to pull our finger out, but once again the toffs at the top think an old fashioned Eton education is the best there is and should therefore still be the ideal model for the local Comp.

Mmmmm... I think it's a bit more than that. From what I've read the ceremonies are very symbolic, and not all that nice. They involve symbolic hanging and stabbing for instance. I also believe that masonry came out of an earlier 'religion' founded in Babylonian tradition. The bit you mention - the Lodges, the Great Architect etc, are the acceptable face of Masonry that we are allowed a glimpse of, but it goes much deeper than that, and that side of it is hidden to all but the top insiders. Isn't it also true that there are secret signs, funny handshakes etc that Masons use to identify and protect each other. I've heard it said that a Judge might protect a fellow mason in the dock for instance by ordering the jury to find him not guilty or with a more lenient sentence, 'For the sake of the widow's son' or some such. This is basically corruption and might be the start of a very slippery slope. Could it be anything to do with the alleged cover up taking place in Westminster for instance? Anyway, what sort of man would dress up in all the regalia,blindfolds, rolled up trouser legs and all, take elaborate and esoteric vows, and still expect to be taken seriously? Or even sane...?

On the face of it I'd have to agree with you, but then you have to remember that America was indeed founded on freemasonry, and the likes of us (even low ranking freemasons themselves,) have no idea what the top rung of that is, or its intent, but it is certainly very ancient, possibly predating Ancient Egypt. Both Prince Philip and Prince Charles are Masons and head up their own respective Lodges. Then you have to consider Hitler's well documented interest in the occult and all things esoteric, and his constant consultation of the dark forces to decide his moves. That sounds ridiculous but isn't. I haven't even mentioned the American Presidents' liking for dressing up in lurid red robes and cowls to pay homage in ceremonies at Bohemian Grove (where George Bush also took Tony Blair.) All the above exist and are well documented, (Bohemian Grove and the Cremation of Care ceremony has even been covertly fimed and can be found on Youtube.) Princess Grace of Monacco was also reported at the time of her death to have strange religious ceremonial robes in the back of her car. Not that it proves anything, but it's a bit unexpected and certainly a bit weird, so I wouldn't just dismiss anything out of hand....

I hate the forced jollity of New Year's Eve. I prefer the quiet contemplation of what's gone and what is to come in the year ahead. But then I'm getting on a bit. However I applaud your very good suggestions, and hope someone takes you up on them. But don't you think you might be reinventing the wheel? Lots of pubs do NYE parties where you can go in a stranger, and come out a friend, and there are groups that already arrange dining clubs etc. Anyway best of luck and good wishes for the New Year!

So am I right in assuming that you think all is well in the world of the council, or are you just trying to scupper the thread by attacking the OP? Why do you seem to think the OP has no right to be disgruntled with the service and the system unless he provides a fully costed alternative? People (with access to all the information they need,) are paid a great deal of money to do just that, yet are not doing it very well. Do you think there is no room for improvement? The fact that is very difficult to get a proper and realistic breakdown of council costs and spending is a problem in itself. Our country is in a mess from top to bottom, because the overpaid individuals in charge, both in council and in government, with a huge sense of self importance and entitlement, think they can do no wrong and have no need to listen to anyone as they know best. Yet their bad governance with all its faulty decisions and stupid mistakes have brought us to where we are now. Then they have the cheek to blame the same population they have systematically ignored for years. There is no real accountability or choice, simply the option of voting in more of the same. As for solutions, they are out there, but won't be adopted by self serving politicians, who, like turkeys, don't vote for Christmas. I'd start by reducing their salaries and number, and stamping down hard on corruption and croneyism. They've been getting away with it for too long.