Justin Smith

Do you mean was there (at the 2015 General Election) ? I don`t think UKIP would have got any more seats than they did, and if they did it`d literally be a handful. Under those circumstances I`d have thought Cameron would have much preferred getting into bed with the Lib Dems than UKIP.

The EU referendum being the most significant example. UKIP never had any chance of coming to power, but they moved the debate, and politicians were looking at any votes they could snag.

Unfortunately, we`ll be rather more exposed to the USA, and every other power (and I`m not just talking countries, I`m talking about corporations like Google or Microsoft) once we leave the EU. That`s just an indisputable fact.

Now then, let`s see. I can think of at least three papers the Mail, Express & Sun (note use of the word papers, not NEWSpapers, they don`t deserve that title) who are virulently anti the EU. If George becomes the editor and steers the Standard in a pro EU direction, that can only be a good thing to balance things up a bit. Particularly as London voted heavily in favour of staying in the EU. It`s interesting, I didn`t use to like George Osborne much, nor Cameron*. But my wife`s theory, that each successive Govt is so much worse than the last that one finds oneself wishing they were back, is oh so true...... * Apart from the unforgiveable way he gambled the country on an EU referendum relatively few people even wanted just so he could pinch a few percentage of votes off UKIP and quell the anti EU wing of his party.

They, whoever they are, do not have to look far for an excuse to unseat him. He provides more than enough evidence of his unsuitability without having to go looking for it. In fact he advertises it. What is interesting is that Fox news (are they the US TV news equivalent of the Daily Mail and Daily Express ? ) have said that GCHQ were asked to bug him. GCHQ normally never confirm or deny anything but this morning went on record as saying it was "utterly ridiculous". Tell me Anna, do you really support such a man ? And if not, why do you give the impression you do ?

The French electoral system will, by preventing splits in the anti fascist vote, almost certainly prevent Le Pen from getting any where near the Presidency, thank God.

I think you`re on the wrong thread with this inaccurate rant. In case you hadn`t noticed we haven`t even left the EU yet. When we do I`m looking forward to the promised free trade deal ("they sell more to us than we sell to them so we`ll get a good deal" [implication : as good, more or less, as now]) and £350 million a week to the NHS. Until those happen I have no respect for the Referendum result. If you want to continue with this I suggest you do so on the Brexit thread. By the way Angel, do you read the Daily Mail or Daily Express ? ---------- Post added 17-03-2017 at 09:50 ---------- I was looking at a graph of Presidential approval ratings since Eisenhower. Trump is off the scale at the bottom, it`s incredible.

Thank Gawd for the Dutch, they`ve stopped Nationalistic Populism in its tracks.

I think the subtlety of that is not relevant for that poll. There is no mention of the EU at all, but I`m prepared to accept that people mentioning Europe, meant the EU.

No that`s the statistics as to whether Independence will win, not whether there should be a referendum at all. I thought I heard support for an independence referendum was 35% odd, I was simply pointing out that`s far higher than the %age of voters who were concerned about the EU (enough to put it in their top three of concerns anyway), yet they had a referendum on that.

In the case of this thread I thought we were actually discussing the hypocrisy of the Govt in claiming there was no will for a Scottish referendum on their independence ?

Which bit of this do you reject : Which are they most important issues affecting you and your family ? : 10% said Europe Which are they most important issues affecting the country ? 15% said Europe Basically UB, to you and a significant minority of (generally older) people the EU has always been a big issue. But to most people it simply wasn`t. That poll simply reflects my own experience. There was absolutely no need for a referendum for most people, other than Tories wanting to nick a few votes off UKIP. And for the Tories to now say they didn`t think there is much support for a referendum in Scotland now is appalling hypocrisy, I don`t understand why you can`t admit that. ---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 12:16 ---------- Can I quote you on that in a year or so ?

I say it rather depends on what comes out of it all doesn`t it ? It seems totally illogical to me. How could anyone vote to stay in the EU but actually want to come out of the single market. Can you explain that one to me ? Unless too many have been reading the Mail or Express of course.....

Er, no I`m not. How can I be "interpreting" only 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns any other way than, well, 85% put Europe 4th or lower on their list of concerns ? Nobody is suggesting that you personally were doing anything other than voting for a hard Brexit. I`d go further, I`d guess that comfortably over half (possibly as high as 70 or 80% ? ) of those who voted to Leave were doing the same thing. But, as you know full well, the result was 52/48. So it`d have to have been 96% or more that voted as you did for it to be a majority for your interpretation. That, I would respectively, but firmly, suggest, is highly unlikely. The Scots have more about them than us, they`d like to know the terms before deciding. Anyone with any sense would, apart from hard core Brexiteers, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express or the Sun.

It`s a good job you've admitted you`re not proud of it. 90mph is way over the limit, a closing speed of 30mph or more with slower moving motorway traffic. I`d have thought you`ll definitely get a speeding conviction (and well deserved it will be). If you don`t there`s something deeply wrong somewhere.

Nigel and Apelike, hello ! Can we have your assurance that if and when the EU refuse to give us a free trade deal (as the Brexit lot said they would during the campaign, their other big lie) you will not say "that`s illogical, we could not have forecast that when we said what we did" ? ---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 09:32 ---------- Originally Posted by Justin Smith : One thing we can agree on, I assume. The Scottish have a higher percentage in favour of an Independence referendum than the UK ever had for an EU referendum, yet we still had one That`s not what I meant. Therasa May et al are saying there`s no great will in Scotland for a referendum. I simply pointed out that if it`s more than about 15% it`s probably higher than the will for an EU referendum was in the UK (as you know 85% of UK voters didn`t even put Europe in their top three of concerns before the last GE), yet we still had a referendum here..... = Hypocrisy ---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 09:38 ---------- They`re inextricably linked.

I can`t believe this, hypocrisy has hit even greater heights ! Apparently the UK Govt think it unfair that the Scottish should hold their referendum before the final terms of Brexit are known, thus, they say, any Scottish Referendum should occur after that point. WHAT ! ! ! The UK had to vote on EU membership before any terms were even dreamt about. And, even more disgusting, any suggestion the UK should have any more choice in leaving the EU once the Brexit terms are known, is "undemocratic". There really is no depths of hypocrisy to which the politicians, particularly Brexit Tories, will not stoop. ---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 08:20 ---------- Actually, it isn`t a "Bogus poll", as you full well know, It`s just a poll which says something you`d rather people didn`t know about. ---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 09:44 ---------- Oh I shall never get used to it. My respect for British democracy has gone, I have no patriotism left. Leave repeatedly lied (and are still lying), won, and have got away with it. You don`t know what you`re talking about Penny, we are short of builders and, in fact, tradesmen generally in this country. Any tradesman who is out of work is not much of a tradesman.

I have just heard on the Today programme that Theresa May is to refuse the Scots having a referendum before Brexit is concluded because it`d be "divisive". GORDON BENNET ! What a SODDIN` hypocrite Theresa May is ! ! Without any doubt the most divisive thing in my lifetime has been the referendum* and, critically, her attitude to it afterwards. No concessions to the 48% who voted remain remember, and stretching what even (all) the Remain voters even voted for. Is it any wonder people have such a low opinion of politicians...... * And let`s remember that before the last General Election only 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns, but that didn`t stop the Tories having this super divisive referendum ! It`d be absolutely laughable if it weren`t so unbelievably serious.

Oh I don`t agree with that at all, but we shall see over the next 2 to 5 years won`t we ? As to ample opportunity to point out each others deceit, would that apply to Daily Mail, Daily Express or Sun readers ? Many millions there, yet it was still a close result.

Respect for Democracy ? Would that apply to the lies and exaggerations of the Leave campaign in the EU referendum ? In some ways I`m looking forward to the declaration of Article 50, I can`t wait to see what the Leave lot will say when so many of their lies (as to what will happen post Brexit*) are revealed for what they are. What`s so sad, and undemocratic in my view, is that it`ll be too late...... It certainly will for the Tory right wing, UKIP , the Daily Mil and the Daily Express. * "We`ll get a good deal (heavily implying 'no worse than at the moment') because the EU sells more to us than we sell to them", if I had a pound for every time I heard (and continue to hear) Brexiteers saying that I`d be a rich man. ---------- Post added 13-03-2017 at 13:58 ---------- Are you talking about the first Scottish referendum ? How could they have done that when there was no prospect of an EU referendum until Cameron very unwisely, and very selfishly (for the Tory party), decided to put one in their manifesto. As you full know there was no strong feeling amongst most (85%) UK voters over the EU.

Oh I agree that concern over immigration was at 47%, but the Leave lot keep telling us it wasn`t about immigration ! And anyway, as you probably know, most immigration is from outside the EU. What is beyond doubt is that the Leave campaign cleverly linked loads of "problems" to EU membership when in reality they had little, or nothing, to do with the EU. ---------- Post added 13-03-2017 at 13:49 ---------- One thing we can agree on, I assume. The Scottish have a higher percentage in favour of an Independence referendum than the UK ever had for an EU referendum, yet we still had one

Still waiting to hear an answer from Nigel Fargate, Apelike and Gamston.....

Oh I agree with this 100%. Let`s remember that before the last election only 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns, so clearly it was not an issue which was of sufficient importance to enough people for there to be a referendum. Thus Cameron only had a referendum to gain a few percent votes off UKIP and, even more importantly for the Tories, try and heal their own splits. Instead they`ve split and country, possibly literally. OK he may not have realised just how many of the Leave campaigns lies would be believed, but he should have done s he knew full well what Politicians will say and how the Daily Mail and Express would report it as "fact". That Cameron was reported as saying he has no regrets is incredible, I really have no respect left fro him whatsoever.

The point is that over the campaign, the percentage in favour of independence was increased significantly. And this time the Scots Nats are starting from a higher percentage than a the start of the last campaign.....

What`s particularly interesting is that Theresa May is not wanting the referendum at the time when it`s actually most sensible for the Scots to have the referendum, assuming they want to stay in the EU, so I hope they tell her where to get off on that one. But the most significant point is the Tories are saying there`s no wish in Scotland for a second independence referendum. That`s hypocritical in the extreme ! Lets go back to before the last UK General Election. Only 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns, i.e. there was no great wish for an EU referendum in this country. But they had one anyway ! Purely so the Tories could pinch a few percent of votes from the UKIP lot and they could heal the big splits in their own party. Added 14 March : Apparently Theresa May is to refuse the Scots having a referendum before Brexit is concluded because it`d be "divisive". GORDON BENNET ! What a SODDIN` hypocrite Theresa May is ! ! Without any doubt the most divisive thing in my lifetime has been the referendum and, critically, her attitude to it afterwards. No concessions to the 48% who voted remain remember, and stretching what even (all) the Remain voters even voted for. Is it any wonder people have such a low opinion of politicians......