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About KinderKid

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  1. Why does it always come back to the Conservatives? My point here is that if the British government is the supreme body, the electorate has complete control of who is in power. Yes, at present that is the Tories, but it could be Labour, Liberal or any other. If voters aren't happy with the Conservative's attitudes to worker's rights, they can install a different government. This is not the case with the EU. I'm unsure what you're getting at here. Where have I challenged a commitment to democracy? By bringing back powers to Westminster, the electorate can directly influence policy by electing MP's. In the EU, yes we had elections for European Parliament, but we were never allowed to vote on the Commission or Council which set the political direction and brought forward legislation. I suspect the reason the EU was so popular in certain circles is that it brought forward an agenda which was popular with a minority of voters unable to pass it through the Commons.
  2. This is fantastic, the whole argument in a nutshell 😁 Your premise seems to be that, if you don't win elections domestically you should cede power to a supranational organisation which will enforce your opinion without the approval of the electorate. It is a dangerous idea to say that voters should be protected from their own opinions and rides roughshod over the basic principles of democracy. It is for this exact reason that the electorate took their chance to leave whilst they could.
  3. The obvious answer here is to campaign to bring in similar legislation at the next election if you are unhappy with it. It is a bizarre argument to say that only the EU can protect worker's rights - if British workers want something they can vote for candidates who represent their views and bring forward the legislation in parliament. We should not be reliant on a "benevolent" EU with a worrying attitude to democracy to protect our rights for us.
  4. Isn't this itself a failing of pro-EU governments? It hardly instills confidence when governments carrying us towards ever-closer-union are blaming the very institution they're perpetuating.
  5. And meanwhile pro-European British politicians rested on their laurels assuming they were bringing everyone else along with them, blinkered to the views of many in pursuit of their ideals. It strikes me as bizarre to say that Eurosceptics somehow had a headstart when pro-Europeans had been in power for a quarter of a century before the vote.
  6. Unfortunately I don't think I will ever be able to understand the point of view that the referendum was somehow fixed. Whilst there were undoubtedly some false promises, many have been kept and for many it is too early to say. We need only point to the Remain campaign threatening a back-of-the-queue deal with the US, an increase in unemployment directly after the vote or barbed wire across the border with RoI to see how far the other side was making claims to fit the narrative. And as for what comes next... the Leave side have owned this, they have been returned to power with an increased majority (largely due to public dissatisfaction and exhaustion with Remain MP's believing trying to scupper the result at every stage) and come back with a robust FTA unimaginable even 18 months ago. I don't really understand the view that they have somehow deserted? Agreed it is always easier when you don't have to sell the status quo, but to say this is the sole reason is a falsehood. We need only look at Corbyn, campaigning for some new Utopia to see that the public can acknowledge when policies are being unrealistically overpromised. In which case it was the duty of Remain to advise, educate, highlight and explain rather than catastrophise and patronise.
  7. My exact point is that I don't believe most people do - just as I can't believe many Remain voters believe every Guardian story of absolute EU unity or benevolence
  8. I think this is where our concurrence ends 😉 In this matter I think it takes two to tango - the referendum was as much a Leave victory as it was a Remain loss - the argument was simply not made strongly enough (over years) for many of the electorate to believe they were seeing adequate benefit against the cost of membership. Against the vision set out by the Leave side for a better future for an independent Britain, the feeling of being satisfied with what was being handed down by Brussels dissipated. We can argue until the cows come home about whether that will transpire or not, but it is important that the "maintain the status quo" message of Remain simply wasn't robust enough. I'd also contest that most voters (including the working classes this is often levelled at) blindly vote for whoever their paper of choice tells them to. Buying a newspaper is a transaction between two parties, not a dictatorial put; if readers don't sympathise with what they read, they stop buying.
  9. That's a very fair point. I suspect part of the failure of Remain to win the referendum lies with successive pro-EU governments on both the Labour and Conservative benches. Without governments really selling what the benefits of EU membership were to the electorate over several parliaments, the job of Eurosceptics has been relatively easy. If you take the lack of opportunity for the electorate to challenge Britain's direction on Europe over decades and the coverage of referenda abroad which were presented as fudged to get the right result, it's not tricky to see why there was already a strong undercurrent of scepticism. I also fear that with some more vocal campaigners (and I suspect this applies to very few of those on the doorstep but a higher proportion of those online) bandying around words like "racist", "xenophobe", "jingoist" served little to allay the concerns of those moderate floating voters who were already leaning towards Leave. The more a moderate sees other moderates being piled on, the more emboldened they are in their own views.
  10. It's hyperbolic comments like this that muddy debate, and in my view, lost the referendum. It is evident that the government have pulled back some degrees of sovereignty (e.g. an ability to control immigration from EU countries) - the level to which these are deemed a success or a failure is still an open question, as are many of the intricacies of what being "sovereign" means. I can't help but feel if, in the lead up to the 2016 referendum, there had been fewer comments of this sort and more robust and honest debate championed by Remain they would have walked it home. Instead, the failure to acknowledge public mood was such that it allowed Brexiteers to build a vision of renaissance against a backdrop of terminal decline. In short, it should have been possible to champion continued EU membership whilst still being empathetic to the fact many British people had reservations about the project.
  11. This is quite a long way off the mark - I'm actually brand new! It's brilliant having such a warm welcome though 😀
  12. This is gold. I have always tried to be magnanimous about the result, from 2016 to now, but they've not made it easy...
  13. Ireland had a grandfather clause from prior to joining - it is fundamentally different. Gibraltar are an Overseas Territory, they are not part of the UK.
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