Lockdoctor

13 hours ago, Pettytom said:

The “will of the people” wasn’t on the ballot papers either. 
 

It is something to be extrapolated from other evidence. 
 

Quite clearly, with the country as split as it is, we need to look for the middle ground. People like you, advancing arguments like yours, make that difficult 

I voted to Remain and if that had been the choice of the  majority then I would have expected our country to remain 100% in the EU.  Let's be honest if Remain had won 52% to 48%  then nobody would listen to anyone  suggesting we look for the middle ground.   

16 minutes ago, ads36 said:

 

who will we blame for all the problems when it turns out to be a terrible idea?

 

will it still be the eu, and foreigners? or will we move onto another scape-goat?

It's not happened yet and nobody knows whether it will turn out to be a bad idea. We're all lucky to live in the UK regardless  of whether the UK is a member of the EU.

1 hour ago, Longcol said:

Why the 31st October?  Very arbitrary if more negotiations are needed for a good deal with the EU like the leave campaign promised,

 

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/news.html

 

"Finally, when you are talking to people - please reassure them that after we Vote Leave, there won't be a sudden change that disrupts the economy. The day after the referendum, nothing changes legally. We will talk to our friends in Europe and discuss the best way to agree a new UK-EU relationship. We won’t rush into it. When we do make changes we will make them carefully."

 

The fact it;s taken so long is largely down to the government trying to appease the ERG and also letting the lazy so and so David Davis lead "negotiations" at the start. The people deserve better. 

 

 

 

Let's be honest those  Politicians seeking to get Article 50 extended beyond 31st October are not doing so because they want more time to negotiate a deal with the EU.  We all know the real reason they want more time is to use it to reverse the 2016 EU Referendum result and cheat 17.4 million of their own people out of their democratic wish.

12 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

As I said up there ^^^ checking is an intrinsically good thing to do.

 

All respectable craftsmen, or professionals check their work on a regular basis.

You're clutching at straws. 

It will be a bad thing for democracy in our country if the 2016 EU Referendum result is not implemented on 31st October with or without a deal.  Our country also needs to move on to give other issues the importance they deserve.

4 minutes ago, davyboy said:

As  Mandy Rice Davis said: Well they would say that , wouldn't they?

Very good.

21 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

In which case, a second referendum will give a resounding victory for leave.

 

So, there is nothing to fear for you extremist Brexiteers.

I'm not a  Brexiteer because I voted to remain.  I support the implementation of the 2016 EU referendum result because I respect democracy.

Why should leave voters support another referendum when they have already won and witnessed the backsliding in Parliament over the last three years?  The Lib Dem leader stated she supports  another referendum but wouldn't support the result if it was not to remain in the EU.  A second referendum victory for Leave would still face opposition from the same people who don't respect the 2016 democratic EU Referendum result.

52 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

So, you don’t bother checking locks once you’ve installed them?

As stated I don't buy your spin.

The only new information that Leave voters now know is that Parliament have engineered a situation to make it more difficult to implement the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result.

26 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Nope, plenty of leave voters have changed their mind. A couple have admitted as much on this very thread.

The European election results showed the desire to leave the EU hasn't lessened since 2016 otherwise the Brexit Party wouldn't have done better than what UKIP did in 2014. The truth is the undemocratic people who still want our country to remain in the EU don't care about the wishes of the people who voted to leave the EU. The truth is those undemocratic people seeking another EU referendum think the result would be different next time because they believe significant leave voters have died and new voters now old enough to vote want our country to remain in the EU. The reason that significant Leave voters have changed their minds since 2016 to justify another referendum is a deliberate red herring.

21 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

I've no desire to cheat 17.4 million people out of their wish, but i would like to be certain that it is their wish before proceeding down a difficult and potentially damaging route. I'm a scientist, you see, I'm used to measuring and checking and re-checking, to ensure that I've measured correctly. Sometimes, new information comes to light and I have to amend my original methods to accommodate better understanding.

 

I presume that you test locks, after you've fitted them. Surely you don't just put them in a door and then walk off, saying "that's what you asked for".

With all due respect I don't buy your spin.  The only people who want another referendum are Remain voters who still want to remain in the EU and they have no respect for the wishes of the 17.4 million leave voters. 

 There  is  arguably justification for a referendum asking the questions ....

Do you want the deal on offer from the EU

Do you want to leave the EU without a deal

14 minutes ago, Dardandec said:

Are you suggesting Mr Farage has no respect for democracy? Let me remind you what he said. "In a 52/48 referendum result this would be unfinished business"

I am stating Mr Farage had no authority.  Mr Farage proved before the 2016 referendum result was announced he wouldn't have respected democracy by his rant when he thought remain had won.  There is no doubt he would have continued campaigning for the UK to leave the EU if Remain had won just like Nicola Sturgeon is still campaigning for Scottish Independence.  

8 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

That is relevant now because?

Only someone who has no respect for democracy would ask that question.

It's relevant because on 23rd June 2016 nearly 34 million UK people went to polling stations and placed a tick on a ballot paper believing the winning choice would be implemented by their Government.  Both Remain and Leave voters expected the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result to be honoured and respected when they placed their tick on the ballot paper on 23rd June 2016.

1 minute ago, Dardandec said:

Yes I do remember, but he scarpered the very next day or so. Had he carried out the things he said in that speech then fair enough. But he didn't so its irrelevant.   

It's only irrelevant that David Cameron is no longer our Prime Minister if you have no respect for democracy and are happy to cheat 17.4 million of your own people out of their democratic wish.

1 hour ago, Dardandec said:

That's not what your leader said. "In a 52/48 referendum result this would be unfinished business" Do you remember that?

The person you are referring to had no authority. The leader of our country stated that whatever the UK people decided on 23rd June 2016 would be implemented and there would be no re-negotiations or another referendum.   Do you remember that?

1 hour ago, Litotes said:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/107171/pro-remain-mps-plot-fresh-vote-second-referendum-during

 

Senior Labour figures said it was “conceivable” that the party would pursue attaching a confirmatory referendum to any new withdrawal agreement while also pushing for a general election.

 

 

But, you implied that Boris is seeking a confirmatory referendum which simply isn't true.  Just a reminder of what you wrote below. 

Quote

Looks like Boris will propose the break up of the UK (by putting in a customs border in the Irish Sea) , and then link any deal to a confirmatory referendum which means we won't be out by the 31st - hope he's got his ditch picked out...

Boris is seeking to do exactly what he stated he would do before he became Prime Minister and that is to implement the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result on 31st October.

5 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

That’s a good thing how?

 

The DUP are in favour because it gives them a veto over remaining in any customs union and so the plan will be rejected by every other political body in Ireland.

It's a good thing because if the DUP support any new agreement with the EU then most likely Boris will get the support in Parliament to prevent a no-deal exit on 31st October.  It's time our country moved on from the Brexit shenanigans to enable other issues that need attention to be sorted out.

2 hours ago, Litotes said:

Looks like Boris will propose the break up of the UK (by putting in a customs border in the Irish Sea) , and then link any deal to a confirmatory referendum which means we won't be out by the 31st - hope he's got his ditch picked out...

 

Boris is proposing no such thing. There's only been talk about the Stormont Assembly having a vote on the proposed Custom arrangements every four years.  The good thing is that the DUP seem to be on board with the proposal.  

33 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

I think it's time we got the hell out. 

It's all looking good now that we will be out on 31st October.  It's time  for our country to move on and give other issues the serious attention they deserve.

7 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

Thanks.

 

I should have said that it has clearly risen in the last four or five years. 

 

The longer term  trend isn’t so clear. Possibly because it hasn’t risen, possibly because of poor record keeping.

You're most welcome. The most disturbing statistic is that the number of homicides/murders using knives has more than doubled in the last forty years.  I agree record keeping has improved over the years.

12 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

There is little evidence that knife crime has increased over the last twenty years.

 

 

Ten charts on the rise of knife crime in England and Wales

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42749089

7 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

It's not.   It's a bog in a room.  You know just like you have in a house.  Just like you have in smaller cafes or libraries or trains or airplanes or small offices or any disabled toilet up and down this land.

 

The same applies for changing rooms.  Lots of small fashion shops have changing cubicles for universal use.  Lots of sports centres have universal changing areas with private cubicles.   

 

There isn't a problem to understand.  

You're not comparing like for like.  It's ludicrous to compare private toilet facilities in your own home to public facilities. 

Swimming baths and hospitals are not the same as small businesses which provide facilities to oblige customers.  At one time not too long ago, it would have been unthinkable for Swimming baths and hospitals to have mixed sexed changing areas and mixed sexed wards, and it's ridiculous and a sad reflection of how moral values have deteriorated in such a short period of time we are even having this discussion.

17 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Why do you object? I don't understand what the problem is?

 

There are universal changing cubicles for all. Nobody is seeing anything.  You do it behind a closed door and come back out into the main communal area.

 

It's exactly the same with gender neutral toilets.  I have been in a few of them as they are starting to be installed in several office buildings particularly in London.  Generally they are a room filled with lots of individual cubicles (often now floor to ceiling height with a sealed door) and then have a communal area for handwashing or sometimes even individual hand washing stations in the cubicles.

 

You go in, you do your thing and you leave.  Nobody any the wiser whether your next door neighbour is a man woman or beast.

 

We are all human beings sharing a space. Why do people find it so difficult to adjust.  I thought really we've moved on and evolved from all this.

 

Is fascinating how people heavily criticise the middle East countries for their ruthless segregation and degrading treatment particularly of women and homosexuals.  The terrible segregation cafes and restaurants.  The segregation and a off in public baths.  Their Draconian dress codes when out in public and then you end up reading a thread like this!! 

It says more about yourself  than me that you don't  understand what the problem is and why you have to ask why people object to being forced to share mixed sexed facilities.

17 minutes ago, Sidonica said:

Generally speaking no but over the years I have visited older family members in hospital and on one occasion saw a man walking about with no clothes on and on another occasion  a family member exposing himself by not pulling his pyjamas up properly.  Neither  of them would ever had done this normally, both were there because they had had a stroke. I never told the family member what he had done because he would have been upset that he had done such a thing.

 You have made an excellent point. Nobody is at their best when in hospital and the older generation are more likely to be more adversely affected by being placed in a mixed sex ward than the younger generation. 

34 minutes ago, pattricia said:

Yes, it’s getting worse. No one had knives years ago. If there was an argument or fight people used their fists.!

There never use to be random attacks which is what this incident appears to be.  At least our gun laws are strict which means incidents that happen in our country are not as bad as what happens in the USA.  All very sad and a sign of the times.

15 minutes ago, Branyy said:

I think we should look closer at motivation behind these attacks.

Social Media hasn't helped.

5 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Former Soviet-run states had a choice between the EU and Russia.

 

Surprise, surprise they chose the EU. Deal with it!

I don't need to deal with anything because I respect the democratic 2016 EU referendum vote despite that it wasn't what I personally voted for. The people who have problems are those who can't deal with a democratic choice that didn't go their way and support every dreamed up  excuse under the sun to justify cheating 17.4 million of their own people out of their democratic wish.

Regarding the Soviet Union/Russia I will mention the Cuban Missile crisis in 1962 when the USA quite correctly were not happy about Soviet Missiles being based on their door step. The Russians have every right to be worried today about the closeness of Western controlled missiles being based on their own door step due to the expansion of the EU.

24 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

Demonising Putin when it was the West that provoked the Ukraine crisis

 

"And still scarcely reported here have been the billions of dollars and euros the West has been more or less secretively pouring into Ukraine to promote the cause: not just to prop up its bankrupt government and banking system, but to fund scores of bogus “pro-European” groups making up what the EU calls “civil society”.

 

When the European Commission told a journalist that, between 2004 and 2013, these groups had only been given €31 million, my co-author Richard North was soon reporting on his EU Referendum blog that the true figure, shown on the commission’s own “Financial Transparency” website, was €496 million."

 

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/action-a-events/national-events/1298-fri-25-may-stop-the-war-cultural-event-dont-attack-iran-performers-include-mark-rylance-and-tony-benn

 

The EU dangerously provoked the conflict in Ukraine due to its reckless and remorseless drive for expansion. Now the EU has designs on becoming an Empire possessing cutting edge weapons of mass destruction, it's propaganda war will only intensify.

The was an interesting News item last night about the fall of the Berlin War and former Soviet military bases in East Germany.  The last Russian  General to leave former East Germany  made a valid point that the US and UK still have military bases in Germany while Russia who made a big effort to help defeat Germany in World War II don't have any presence today.  The expansion of the EU to the East and borders of Russia hasn't helped to improve relations between Russia and the West.

1 hour ago, Pettytom said:

It really isn’t clear to me why you object to mixed changing  rooms. Could you explain again please 

I haven't stated I object to mixed changing rooms, but I do object to there not being changing rooms/areas available for only male and female swimmers.  It shouldn't really be difficult to understand. On the toilet thread I made a similar point that I have no objection to gender neutral toilets but don't support them replacing toilets just for males and females. 

1 hour ago, ECCOnoob said:

Wow a 2 years old opinion piece from the guardian based upon an academic survey conducted in the USA. 

 

Concrete stuff that.

 

Human dignity is created when a nurse/doctor draws a curtain around the bed to perform a routine procedure which may cause embarrassment.  Human dignity is when a doctor or nurse removes someone from a ward to a treatment room or operating theatre to conduct a more invaisive procedure. 

 

One would assume that the rest of the time in a ward patients are dressed and covered up.    Where exactly is the "indignity" here??

 

 

Two years ago isn't long ago and the USA have similar traditional family moral values to our own country.

Your understanding of human dignity is different to mine.  The Government decided to phase out same sex wards because they don't provide the same human dignity for patients as single sex wards.

3 minutes ago, Halibut said:

What are the good reasons for banning mixed sex changing ares with cubicles? (I'll assume you're pro burqa ban then)

I haven't stated mixed sex changing areas with cubicles should be banned. The title of this topic is 'Same Changing Room For Male/Female at Swimming Baths'  which I original stated was unacceptable.  In my opinion there should be separate changing areas available for both male and females for reasons I have already explained.  

2 minutes ago, Halibut said:

How does any of that translate to mixed changing areas with cubicles? Simple answer, it doesn't.

As an aside, and to help inform the discussion, are you in favour of banning the burqa?

You asked about the good reasons regarding stopping  mixed sex wards in hospitals and I tried to help you out.

Mixed sex hospital wards are a sensible issue to be brought up in this discussion. What has banning the burka got to do with this topic?

4 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Do you think the EU army would start more or less conflicts than a US led NATO?

Depends who is in charge at the White House. Mistakes have been made in the past.  I think a US led NATO will be better to end conflicts than an EU army and are more likely to  deter a Third World War.

22 minutes ago, Halibut said:

You're a kind of long running, not very funny joke. What are the 'obvious good reasons' you talk of?

Human dignity.

I am not here to spoon feed you. Read this article

Mixed Sex wards endanger and humiliate women

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/30/mixed-sexed-wards-endanger-and-humiliate-women

3 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

And we could win it on our own?

The UK are a member of NATO.  We haven't had a third World War mainly because of NATO and not the EU.  NATO ended the Balkans War not EU diplomacy  An EU army wouldn't be better than NATO.