Lockdoctor

6 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

It will be educational actually for people to understand how our sovereign country’s representative democracy works. 

Hilarious comment.  If our country's representative democratic MPs   had any respect for democracy then they wouldn't seek to block the will of the people who democratically chose to leave the EU.

I support any legislation that is brought through good intentions. 

52 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

Brexit is becoming less and less likely to happen at the end of October.  

 

No Brexit deal tonight...... CONFIRMED.

If Brexit doesn't happen at the end of October then that is a bad thing because democracy will have been ruined in our country.

1 hour ago, Pettytom said:

Which is lovely. But has no relevance to my post which you chose to reply to in a somewhat  child like  manner.

 

I’ll assume that you have nothing of substance to say about the prospects of investing in UK companies.

Please don't have a tantrum and throw your toys out of the pram because I don't treat your non democratic posts seriously. I don't comment about the prospects of investing in the UK because those discussions were debated and discussed before the democratic 2016 EU Referendum vote and have no relevance now because the decision has been made for our country to leave the EU by our own democratic people.

13 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

Thanks for your insight. 
 

Do you have anything sensible to say?

Hello,  I am the poster who always says sensible things because I didn't vote to leave the EU but does understand  basic maths that the leave lot won because more people voted for them than us.  Respecting democracy is more sensible than not respecting democracy in my own personal opinion which I believe is good for a sovereign country.

2 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

I moved all of mine months ago. It is all in the US,  the EU and the Asian markets. 

 

It is slightly risky for me, as I’m still resident in the UK, so if I decide to cash any investments in, I’m at the mercy of exchange rates.

 

I can’t see any sense in investing in the UK, as it seems hell bent on destroying its economic base. I don’t think that I’m alone.

 

And then you woke up.

1 hour ago, apelike said:

 

 

Jo Swinson also stated in 2008 that the UK should have an "in-out" referendum but now she does not agree on the result after one was held.

There were about 550  other MPs who also supported  an "in-out" referendum which is why they voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU referendum.  It's a bit like going to Ladbrokes and placing a bet  and wanting your money back if your horse doesn't win.   Any normal honest person wouldn't support holding a referendum if they are not prepared to accept both potential results.

To be fair to the SNP they never supported holding the 2016 EU referendum so they have some justification for not supporting the result.  

7 minutes ago, geared said:

 

Wasn't she also saying she'd support a deal if there was a referendum vote on the deal ?

 

Can't see how that'd work, takes ages to sort a referendum out, mp's vote the deal thru and we leave on the 30th right??

Jo Swinson  supports moving the goalposts again.  She said she  won't support any deal but will support a confirmation referendum vote on a deal with remaining in the EU being the other choice on the ballot paper.  However, she has already stated she wouldn't support the result of another referendum if it delivered another leave majority.   

What is happening is shameful because Parliament passed legislation to stop Boris from leaving the EU without a deal,  stating the reason was they didn't trust him to even try to negotiate a new deal with the EU.  Now against all the odds with his hands tied behind his back Boris is close to getting a new deal with the EU and Parliament still seek to block the implementation of Brexit by attaching a confirmation referendum clause.   There was no mention of any confirmation referendum vote when Parliament triggered Artice 50 and made leaving the EU without a deal the legal default position. 

As you correctly pointed out any referendum will take months to organise and you can guarantee there will be legal challenges to the wording and questions asked on the ballot paper.

9 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

The same could be said about Rees- Mogg’s hedge fund. 
 

What you are missing is what is for the general good of the country that benefits the majority. 
 

If you want the thousands of workers in Sunderland, Swindon and Burnaston losing their jobs is a good idea, then support Leave. 

Brexit has nothing to do with recent changes in the car industry.  Honda has't blamed Brexit for their decision to close the plant in Swindon.  The new trade deal or economic partnership between Japan and the EU would have still happened regardless of the democratic 2016 EU referendum result.   Job losses happen all the time as market forces change and new jobs are also created in the changing World.  Brexit has caused uncertainty and is also a convenient excuse to be used to justify uncomfortable decisions made by big business owners.

1 hour ago, Lex Luthor said:

Is it your opinion that all Brexiters are extremists?  If so, that's an awful lot of people.

 

Do you think, as our politicians and private citizens, (such as the organisation fronted by Gina Miller), have done everything possible to thwart Brexit, that Brexiters can even remotely trust that another resounding 'leave' would ever be reported as such?  

 

Ignoring, or insisting on a re-run of outcomes our politicians don't like, or the voting minority don't like, puts us, as a country, firmly in Mugabe territory.  Another leave answer would simply not be tolerated.  All faith in the democratic process in this country has been lost already.

 

Jo Swinson the Lib Dems leader said on Sky News this morning that the Scottish Independent Referendum result should be respected and there is no justification for another Scottish Independence Referendum.  BUT she doesn't say the same about the 2016 EU Referendum result and supports another EU Referendum with Remain  on the ballot paper because she doesn't like the 2016 result.   I think Jo Swinson will make a good cherry-picker when she doesn't become Prime Minister after the next General Election.

45 minutes ago, Litotes said:

Personal comments can't be directed at anyone else can they? You are being tautological.

 

MPs have lied before and will lie after - it is in their nature - remember Nick Clegg? There is no legal recourse.

 

What was their wish? After all were they voting for a hard brexit, or a soft brexit or a customs union one or a Norway one, or a Marmite one or what?

The problem with leave is that they didn't say what they were voting for - now there is a chance to revisit that with the democratically requested second referendum with clear meaning about what you are voting for.

 

Anything else would go against the democratic choice of the people to change their minds (as David Davis said).

Making general comments about a group is not the same as making  personal  comments directed towards a named individual.  How many times have Leave voters been labelled xenophobic and racist on all the eight Brexit threads?

It's not fair to imply Nick Clegg lied.   The Lib Dems didn't win the 2010 General Election which meant they couldn't deliver all their manifesto pledges in their role as the very junior partner in a coalition Government.  If hung parliaments become a regular event then it will be normal for pledges in manifestos to be traded to form coalition Governments.

Remaining in the customs union and single market will make a mockery of the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result.   There can be no justification for having another EU referendum before the result of the 2016 EU referendum result has been implemented.  And to have another EU Referendum with remain on the ballot paper will kill democracy in this country.

David Cameron who was the Prime Minister made it clear our country wouldn't have a chance to change it's mind if the democratic people voted to leave.  You sound like a broken record by continually mentioning David Davis.

34 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

It is very telling that you think this is acceptable. Isn't it odd that the Swiss had a very similar situation of their own and their courts voided the result. Whereas people like you think differently. You think lying is acceptable and ethical do you? Says a lot about your character. 

 

 

I haven't said I support lying by politicians.  You're kidding yourself if you think the remain campaign was totally honest and the leave campaign were totally dishonest.   We are all grown ups and should be capable of choosing which way to vote by trusting our own judgement.  

3 minutes ago, Padders said:

I sometimes wonder,

What if we leave, and make a huge success of it....

So the German people do the same, flourish , rearm, and become a world power... what next?

Germany would be the last member to leave if the UK are seen to be hugely successful as a consequence of leaving the EU.  The EU benefits Germany the most because they are the EU's biggest exporter to other EU nations thanks to their strong manufacturing industries.

You do make a valid point about peace in Europe which was the original reason for the EU because Germany and France were always causing wars.

40 minutes ago, L00b said:

There isn't enough lipstick in the world to make that pig appealing enough to the DUP.

 

The customary practice from last year, would have the DUP learning the details of the deal from a Belgian MEP reading them out on the Robert Schuman roudabout outside the EU offices, then promptly ringing Johnson to nyet their support in the HoC just as he's poised to sign on the dotted line in the EU Council meeting 

None of us know the true details of what's being negotiated at the moment. The DUP trust Boris much more than they ever trusted Theresa May.  Boris is a much better Politician than Theresa May.  The  DUP will face another General Election soon and it's in their own interest not to lose support from their regular voters.  It's in the Labour Party's interest, as well as the Tory Party's interest to get Brexit resolved before a General Election.  There are reports of over 20 Labour MPs who will support a deal and most of the 21 Tory rebels who lost the whip will support a deal.   A deal has a very good chance of getting through Parliament now.  Also the individual EU Nations must be tired of Brexit negotiations and want it sorted out now.

There has also been a report suggesting the EU might hold another emergency summit before the 31st October deadline,  if agreements are not made this week.  That would surely alter the legal situation regarding Boris asking for an extension to Article 50.  

10 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I think you're a nutcase, a spiteful one at that.

 

People like padders aren't trying to rig anything, they'd like another say on an important issue now they have more information. It's odd you don't aim your bile at liars like Johnson and Cummins who are quite literally trying to rig things.

You need to calm down  and read comments more carefully.  I haven't labelled any posters personally.  If I was a snowflake I would take offence at your personal comments directed at me.

The 17.4 million who voted to leave didn't tell any lies and don't deserve to be cheated out of their democratic wish.  Politicians from both sides of the arguments are equally guilty of being economical with the truth both before and after the democratic 2016 EU Referendum vote.

27 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

But you're happy to call groups of people selfish and shameful literally every other post. Those groups, unsurprisingly, are made up of individuals.

Let's be honest those seeking another referendum are not doing so because they have the interests of the 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU at heart. The people who want another referendum are hoping if there is another vote, then the result will be what they want next time which is a selfish wish. The last major vote in this country was the European Elections where the Brexit Party won the most seats and the most votes with one aim which was for our country to leave the EU without a deal.  The people seeking another referendum don't even want the option of a no deal on the ballot paper of another  EU referendum  despite the fact nearly 5.25 million people voted for the Brexit Party in May this year in the European Elections.  To be honest, I think I am being too fair by just labelling groups of people selfish because they also want to rig the ballot paper of another EU referendum to deny those wishing to leave the EU without a deal that choice which is the legal default position.

32 minutes ago, Padders said:

Not often I post on this thread Doc, it just goe's on and on.. However I strongly object to being called selfish..

I voted leave, after weighing up all the Pro's and Con's of leaving, I am now a firm remainer. the 2016 referendum was too close for comfort..

After 3 yrs of debate how many remainers have changed their minds, very few, if any...how many leavers have changed their minds, I would hazard a guess at lots..  after 3 yrs of debating the subject and getting nowhere, its time to ask the voters again.

I wasn't calling  any individual here selfish and certainly not you .  I didn't say everyone seeking another referendum is selfish either but many are.  It's a selfish trait not to respect the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU.

25 minutes ago, L00b said:

I'm spinning?

 

I used your exact own words:

As for the people who want a second referendum, the truth of the matter is that they include a heterogeneous mix of 2016 remain-voting, 2016 leave-voting and 2016 non-voting people, across the left-right political spectrum, i.e. a representative sample of democratically-entitled British citizens, so tagging them as 'just selfish' simply demonstrates the extent of your closed-mindedness.

 

That's still not spinning, btw. Just calling out your bias.

My original comments were when quoting another member who implied dead people's wishes don't count.  You're always spinning.   I voted to remain so am most certainly not bias.   

21 minutes ago, L00b said:

Those (most) seeking another referendum are not using dead people to "justify another vote", they are using dead people to guesstimate the hypothetical vote result.

 

The "justification" for another vote is not the arithmetic of the 2016 referendum, nor the mortality rate since, it is the gradual realisation by much of the British public that the benefits which the Leave side promised in its campaigns in 2016 cannot conceivably be delivered, and so perhaps the British public should now yay or nay what can be actually be delivered instead.

 

Whether a second vote ever takes place is pretty much moot.

 

It's a good idea on paper, as a 'last chance to change your mind' opportunity, because there won't be any complaints desks available to anyone in the UK post-Brexit, leaver or remainer alike, if Brexit turns into even half the ****show which all experts (even the Leave ones) have promised, nor will there be any quick fixes (once you're out, ie the other side of Art.50, you're properly out: Art.49 to get back in, with Schengen and the €). 

 

But it's immaterial to the EU, because it's a sovereign/domestic politics issue for the UK.

I didn't say that those seeking another referendum are just using dead people as an excuse to justify another vote.  Stop spinning. The issue of dead people has cropped up more recently.  Last week there was a discussion on the Jeremy Vine show in which Nina Myskow stated another referendum was justified due to the amount of people who have died since 2016.  In fairness to Nina Myskow she did acknowledge that she was an old person herself.  What I find distasteful is when then younger generation bring up the issue of dead people and criticise  their grandparents if they voted to leave the EU.  The truth is many people who want another referendum are  just selfish people.

I noticed yesterday a Thomas Cook shop was open again on the high street.  The company who have bought the shops have moved quickly and have helped to save some jobs.

8 hours ago, Pettytom said:

So, dead people count.

 

And you are happy to claim that 17.4 million people represent “the will of the people”

 

You really are a Democrat. 
 

(That last sentence was sarcasm, btw)

Of course the wishes of dead people who voted in 2016 should count.  Many voters at the time, who sadly are no longer with us knew they wouldn't be around for years to come and will of voted thinking about how their vote was likely to affect the future of their country after they had died.  Both remain and leave voters have died and it it is wrong to ignore their wishes.  It's shameful that those seeking another referendum should use dead people to justify another vote.

Quote

There's no such thing as a 'managed exit'.

 

There's the withdrawal agreement, either Theresa's with backstop or Johnson's latest (which manages to be far worse than Theresa's, kudos to Boris' incapability here), in either case with a defined and known transitional period.

 

Or no deal, with a few tidbits about aviation, logistics and such, kept only because they are useful to the EU27 and so for their benefit, and ongoing only at their pleasure (ie undefined and for an unknown period of time).

 

If you think it's all been chaos so far, and you Brexit without a deal, you ain't seen nothing, but nothing, yet. In those circumstances, trade gloves will be off, and the ensuing EU/UK negotiations will be rather grim for the UK.

Of course there could be a managed exit.

At the moment the EU still think there is a chance the UK will stay in the EU and that is the only reason they are making things difficult.  Once the UK leave the EU then it will be in the EU's interest to  agree amicable arrangements with the UK regarding trade and other matters given the fact they currently have a big trade surplus with the UK.

31 minutes ago, Longcol said:

We all know Corbyn is as handy as a crack in a glass eye, but I suppose Lockdoctor admitting the ERG share the blame is progress from the position of  completely absolving them 😎

Hilarious.  The ERG are blameless for the current mess because they are happy to leave the EU by the default legal position.  The best example of a Tory MP behaving badly is Anna Soubry.  Yes, I know she no longer is a Tory MP but she voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU Referendum, voted in favour of triggering Article 50 and stood for re-election as a Tory MP in 2017 with a manifesto to implement the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result.

30 minutes ago, Longcol said:

If you can't get your own party to vote for you then don't go blaming the opposition.

 

We're rather tired of the Tories blaming everyone but themselves for this mess.

I'm blaming the MPs  who voted against Theresa May's  Withdrawal on offer from the EU and also voted to rule out a no-deal regardless of which party they represent for our country not leaving  the EU on 29th March.

At the end of the day both the Labour Party and the Tory Party stated in their 2017 General Election manifestos they would implement the EU referendum result and both parties knew leaving the EU without a deal was the default legal position, because Article 50 had been triggered before the General Election.   The Labour Party lost the 2017 General Election which is why they couldn't do the negotiations with the EU, but their MPs should still have supported the Withdrawal Agreement on offer if they thought it was better than a no-deal rather than playing party politics or seeking to block the implementation of the democratic 2016 EU referendum result.

Some Tory MPs have behaved badly but the Labour Party leadership have behaved shamefully throughout the Brexit negotiations.

21 minutes ago, ads36 said:

 

you said 'there will be a transitional period' - as if that would be a simple solution to the Brexit related problems I mentioned.

 

the withdrawal agreement/transition period *is* the bit that our government and the EU are currently talking about.

 

none of the important questions have (ever) been answered.

 

 

 

I will try again.   

At the moment there are a large number of MPs seeking to stop Brexit all together.  Once our country has left the EU on 31st October these MPs will no longer be able to stop Brexit because it will have happened.  Then it will be in everyone's interest to work to achieve the best future  trade deals and arrangements with he EU and other countries.  There will only be a transitional period if a Withdrawal Agreement  or a Managed Exit is agreed between the UK and EU.

21 minutes ago, Longcol said:

Don't you mean the Tories in the ERG who wanted to crash out without a deal and voted against May - if they'd voted with her in the last vote she'd have had a majority and we'd be leaving with a deal on 31/10.

If all the MPs in Parliament who thought Theresa May's and Oliver Robbins deal was better than a no-deal  had voted for the deal then we would have left on 29th March.   The MPs who thought no-deal was better than the deal on offer are not to blame for the delay in leaving the EU because they supported our country leaving the EU on 29th March by the default legal position.

3 minutes ago, ads36 said:

no. we have to leave first, then get a deal - thems the rules (that we wrote).

 

your wave of the hand statement : 'there will be a transitional period' - that's what all this mess is currently about. We haven't even started arguing over the deal yet, so far it's all been about the withdrawal agreement.

 

we can't even agree what kind of transition we want, never mind a trade deal.

I am struggling to understand what point your are trying to make. 

The current mess has been caused by the MPs who seek to block Brexit.  Once our country leaves the EU on the 31st October then our country will be able to sort out future arrangements with EU and trade deals elsewhere  because the argument about whether are country should remain or leave the EU will have been finally settled.

19 minutes ago, ads36 said:

and then what?

 

what about farm subsidies?

what about the JIT supply chain?

what about the umpteen trade deals we need to negotiate just to get us back to something like square one?

etc.

etc.

etc.

 

there's never the detail to back it up.

We don't know whether our country is going to leave the EU on 31st October with or without a deal.  If we leave with a deal then there will be a transitional period where nothing will really change on 1st November.  In the future it will be up to the Government of the day to decide issues such as farm subsidies.

None of know how things will turn out after Brexit is fully implemented because it hasn't happened yet.  Similarly none of us know whether England will have a good Rugby World Cup because it hasn't really started yet for England.  However, we do know Scotland haven't had a good Rugby World Cup because of what happened yesterday.

4 minutes ago, ads36 said:

really? you're still playing the 'it might turn out great!' card?

 

 

No, I'm playing the Today's date card which is 14th October and before  the 31st October when our country leaves the EU.