thanks for that lucylac . i can remember now , i used to go to school with val in the early days at p/edwards and can remember a lot of people on this forum i.e barry grimbley.tony whitley.billy white .jimmy summerscales,georgy o/brian,david roberts.jacky cole.david cope, buny[brian] fitszpatric, john mellor, harry maichin ,and all the mattymores that lived across our back garden,on whindyhouse lane i could go on for ever but the old brain box needs a quick re vamp now all the best dave