BarryRiley

How do poor people afford to travel across a continent?

You may think what you are doing is clever, but it's not. It completely transparent. You are attempting to rubbish a theory by asking for unobtainable information as the only confirmation of said theory. "How do we know that man with the 12 Ferarris is rich? I demand to see his bank statements double stamped as genuine by two independent solicitors and a list of his transactions in the last 15 years until I believe that". It's a childish and tiresome tactic. I covered everything you're asking now in the previous lengthy post. Simply put, if someone can afford the cost of paying a people smuggler as well as the cost of traveling across an entire continent they're not poor starving Refugees. I can't really be bothered arguing with you. You simply have no clue what you're talking about. You even suggested earlier that these people were walking from Greece to Germany. You're totally clueless. Also, stop separating your points with 20 full stops. You're not in primary school.

Well that refutes the square root of nothing

Under which international law? If it were brought to trial then the prosecution would have access to anything which was not deemed to be a risk to national security, but being related to someone doesn't give you the right to demand to know what happened I'm afraid.

You are clearly under the impression, with your attempt at sarcasm, that you are much more intelligent than you really are, so let me explain to you very simply what has happened. Yes there was a war in Syria and yes lots of people were dying. Some places were absolutely decimated such as Yarmouk and people were suffering terribly. As is always the case in war, the poor suffered the worst as they literally had everything they owned destroyed and were left with nothing. Those who could get out, got out and in to neighbouring countries where they were placed in refugee camps. Many people fled to Lebanon and Jordan, but most entered Turkey as the nearest safe country. This is where the story ends for the poor. They remained in the refugee camps in Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon where they are currently safe from immediate death although in far from an ideal situation until they can return to their homes hopefully in the not too distant future. The wealthier who could afford it decided not to stay in Turkey for economic reasons (you see, they were already safe in Turkey, and so their decision to move on for economic reasons makes them ECONOMIC MIGRANTS. Understand yet?) Many of them paid large amounts of money to smugglers who took them across to Greece (or the islands such as Lesbos) in small boats which were barely sea worthy. Many died as a result. Once in Greece the authorities attempted to register them but they did not want to stay in Greece because it was in economic crisis which they did not want to be involved in. They therefore moved north to FYROM and onwards through the countries which did not meet their economic criteria. The Hungarian authorities desperately tried to process them when they arrived and yet they didn't want to be processed here as they did not think Hungary was rich enough. They forced their way through baracades and on to trains shouting 'Germany, Germany'. Sorry Hungary, not good enough. The left-wing media spun this appallingly, the BBC in particular showing images of Hungarian forces manhandling the 'refugees' who just wanted to be safe and warm (and in a country with a good GDP). The migrants have been offered aid in every country they have come across so far, but have refused registration and physically forced themselves in to countries on their way to one which meets their economic criteria. Now do you understand why these people are economic migrants? Just because you were once a refugee, it doesn't mean this label (with a legal definition in European law) stays with you forever, giving you catre blanche to do whatever the hell you like. So, to answer your assumption, no these people are not escaping death and searching for safety. They were, but they weren't happy with it and so they moved on. Stop swallowing what the mainstream media keep feeding you.

It depends on what you mean by wealthy. They are not millionaires retiring on huge pensions, but they are wealthy enough to make the trips and wealthier than the average Syrian. However, being wealthier than the average person doesn't guarantee you the ultimate life in the countries that they come from, or are currently residing in when they make the trips. They see the eventual benefits of travelling to a first world country as outweighing the potential dangers, no matter how flawed that logic is. You would imagine that someone would only take these perilous trips if their lives were absolutely in danger right? Well it clearly doesn't work like this as Nigerians have died making boat trips to Italy. The pictures of the Nigerians in the camps show them well-clothed and with MP3 players. Also, Nigeria isn't at war. The simple fact is that none of these people who are traveling to Germany or Sweden are doing it because their lives are in danger. Their lives haven't been in danger for the last 3000 miles. They are doing it because they have heard that the economic prospects of life in these countries are worth the risks.

Wealthy enough to afford the thousands of Euros required to be able to make the trip to Northern Europe. Do you really think poor, hungry displaced Syrians are able to par 3k to a people smuggler to get them across to Greece and survive a journey of thousands of miles using public transport onwards to Germany? If so, please explain how. I don't have this data because it is not being collected. It cant' be collected as the migrants are refusing registration and forcing their way through borders. I'm not going to pretend to know or attribute different statistics to this like you did. However, I have closely watched hundreds of hours of BBC propaganda news footage since the beginning of the crisis, where the agenda was clearly to show children and mothers, and even then they couldn't hide that the large majority of these people seemed to be men in their 20s and 30s. Go and find me a photograph of a large group of migrants making the way through Europe who have a balanced proportion of women and children. There is plenty of photographic and video evidence that these migrants are mostly young men.

If you actually believe the mainstream media are presenting a balanced view of the crisis then you are deluded. The link you posted refers to refugees displaced by the war in Syria including the masses in refugee camps in neighbouring countries, NOT the masses of people forcing their way through borders to get to Germany, most of whom are wealthy males of fighting age. I imagine you knew that though, and were simply trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

Don't worry. The BBC is losing the propaganda war. They have simply completely overcooked it and no one is buying it anny longer. Every time I visit their page it's cherry picked pictures of cute children and desperate mothers. And yet it's not working. The average man in the street knows that on the whole they are fit young men.

So all the migrants who are heading to Germany speak fluent German? ---------- Post added 03-09-2015 at 14:10 ---------- I'm simply pointing out that there are many, many other countries with similar problems to Nigeria and Eritrea. Country's problems are not solved by everyone leaving there. If they want an economically prospourous and free country then there is no reason why it can't be there own home land.

Not an odd comparison at all. Qatar has an appalling record of employee rights, as you said. Not sure why you just brushed it to the side like it's not an issue that they are being worked to death and used as slaves. It's also illegal to be homosexual or convert from Islam. Similar, although slightly more Westernised in Dubai. It's nothing to do with GDP - didn't we already establish that Nigeria has a higher GDP than Sweden and yet people are still leaving. China has an appalling human rights record. They literally bulldozed entire villages or poor people to make way for the Olympics and their poor are terribly mistreated on the whole. No, it's not. The idea is that they are registered in the first country they come to and then if required, the EU set up a redistribution plan to ease the economic responsibility of the overloaded countries. What they're all doing at the moment is heading for the richest countries that will let them in, which is causing even more of an 'imbalance' as can be seen at train stations and borders. If these people want help, then Europe is willing to help them, but at the moment they are just forcing their way in to sovereign nations, refusing registration in countries they don't like the look of and then complaining about Europe not helping them.

Didn't you say earlier we should refer to them all as refugees, despite the fact that many of them don't come under the UN definition of a refugee? Technically most of them are 'economic migrants' since they have moved from the first safe country to a different country based on the economic prosperity, if you want to refer to them correctly

They were coming from Turkey. You're under the impression that every journey these people make is to save theirs and their children's lives but it's just not true. Once they're out of Syria their lives are safe in terms of being the victims of war or oppression. Many of them then further put their lives at risk by going onwards to a country with more prosperity. They are taking it upon themselves to choose which countries they travel to and in the course of these journeys they are enduring the perilous journeys. In terms of the large group travelling north at the moment: - They escaped the Syrian war in to Turkey - They left Turkey as they didn't want to be there and arrived in Greece - They left Greece because they didn't want to be part of the economic crisis - They entered northern border countries such as Hungary and FYROM - They refused to be registered in FYROM and Hungary because it didn't match whatever their criteria was and will only settle for Germany and the UK How are we supposed to help these people other than putting them on a plane to the country of their choosing. They expect Europe to rehome them where they want to rehomed rather than redistributed under European rules.

As crazy as it sounds, people are doing this. Consider those who die on a boat journey from Turkey to Greece. Were the Turks killing them? Were they fearing for their lives in Turkey?

I'm not talking about the Syrians, I'm talking about those from African nations. Yes Eritrea has it's problems, such as the military conscription which many wish to avoid and I don't blame them, but I don't think mass migration is an answer. Consider the following countries which are also home to what we in the West would consider human rights abuses: Saudi Arabia Qatar Dubai China Yemen Myanmar Somalia Pakistan India DRC The list goes on. Would it be a solution therefore to open the borders to all of these country's nationals? It does only seem fair, considering the danger their residents are in. However, and I know it sounds harsh, countries like Britain, France and Germany aren't safe to live in and progressive because they happened to be created that way. They are like this because people have fought for it. There's no reason why the countries above can't also enjoy the same success - but mass exodus isn't going to solve anything. The poor who are born in those countries are still going to be subject to abuses - in fact moreso, because the only ones who wanted change left to live somewhere else. I feel for the poor of such countries, because while we all look at the Syrian refugees and feel glad that they have escaped danger, we are only looking at the rich ones. We are looking at the doctors, lawyers and teachers who could afford the journey and extortionate people smuggling fees. And the West forget about helping the country's solve their problems in-house because we just assume that everyone who wanted to leave did.

Yes, I don't live in the UK. I moved to a different country in Europe after securing a job here and going through the correct legal channels to obtain residency. I didn't just turn up at the border and fight my way in. I misunderstood your term 'jungle'. The people in that camp are hoping for a better life abroad. Who can blame them? However, you can't just move every single person on the planet to the richest country and then expect us all to have a wonderful life because that's not how it works. It just levels out the quality of life for everyone, including the people in the host country, who worked to make it as desirable as it is. While there must, by the laws of probability be some persecuted people in the camp, the countries they come from aren't at war, and the large majority of them are not in danger of being tortured or killed in their home nations. Therefore they don't fall under the banner or 'refugees' and can't just decide one day to walk in to a sovereign nation and set up home. Fun fact - did you know that Nigeria has a higher GDP than Sweden and Belgium? We don't need to re-home their entire population.

The jungle? What on earth are you talking about?

This guy gets it. It's not difficult. The reason there are so many people attempting it is because they've seen people be successful in the past. If borders were properly controlled then they wouldn't even try

They are coming anyway, so just let them in? That's no sort of response. What is the point in having any borders - why not just let everyone live wherever they want? If I repeatedly tried to break in to your house and injured myself doing so, would you just open the door and let me in?

France should be passing the buck, it's Britain's fault. The thousands of migrants camped in Calais trying to get in to the UK aren't Syrian refugees, they're African migrants responding to Britain's advertisement of itself as an immigration holiday camp over the last few decades. These people aren't escaping war or persecution, they just have this idea that Britain is some sort of paradise. There was a BBC interview in Calais a few weeks back. They were talking to the migrants, some of which thought that they would be enrolled in Cambridge University as soon as they arrived in Britain and that the streets were paved with gold.

You're talking about African migrants here, not Syrian/Afghan refugees. Why would Europe pay to illegally transport Nigerian and Eritrean migrants to the country of their choice?

They're not all refugees though, which is why even the BBC uses 'migrants' as a blanket term. It's a really, really difficult situation at the moment, not at all helped by Germany's very confusing rhetoric. Merkel has caused a lot of the problems we are seeing recently whilst attempting to actually solve them. Germany have stated that they will allow any Syrian refugees to enter the country that can get to the border whilst also telling other European countries to keep applying the Dublin Regulation which states that Refugees must be registered in the first country they arrive in. This has caused chaos as thousands of migrants line up at train stations in Hungary on their way to Germany and are angered by the fact that the Hungarians are applying European law in attempting to register them. There needs to be cohesion in Europe and laws need to be either changed to stuck to by every country as it's just a confusing mess.

The BBC have helped in what seems to be a massive confusion between refugees and economic migrants. Take the people who are as we speak forcing their way physically into Macedonia. These people aren't escaping war. They already escaped war when they got to the first safe country (also many aren't from war torn countries, just poor ones). Now they have decided that they don't want to stay in Greece because of the economic crisis - they want to head to the richer northern countries. So basically they don't want to just escape their own countries, they also want to bypass any country which does not meet their wealth criteria. This isn't being a refugee, this is being an economic migrant. The BBC are very eager to show Macedonian soldiers as heartless brutes holding back the migrants with force, focussing on crying children getting caught up in the ruckus. They sweep under the carpet however, the fact that the Macedonians are happy to process the migrants, but at a manageable rate of a few hundred a day. The migrants weren't happy with this though, resulting in the scenes of migrants pushing their way through the borders with their children. The migrants need to be separated from the genuine asylum seekers. Every poor person in the world can't just head for Germany and the UK - that just results in a lowering of the home nation's quality of life. And equally refugees can't just pick and choose which country they want to live in, with no money for housing or to be able tk start an actual life without assistance. This has to be left up to the EU.

You dug up a 3 year old thread to call someone a troll?

It's a common response, but no you don't have as much chance being blown up on our own streets. The huge majority of Muslims aren't going to murder you but ISIS are spreading their influence far and wide in the Muslim world and I just wouldn't take any chances holidaying in North Africa at the moment As for going to war with ISIS, I don't know where people get the idea that this is going to happen any time soon. The government aren't going to go to war over a few less tax payers when they have no oil or natural resources we need.