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Of course I don't think it was justified. What is even more unjustified is people wanting to blame Islam and Muslims for the murders.

I think you know very well why they were murdered. They were murdered over the cartoons so why are you asking?

Muslims didn't murder those guys, two brothers did. You say they were acting in the name of Islam. I say fine, the Bush regime killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq in the name of Freedom and Democracy. Is Democracy to blame?

He's not making excuses he's simply saying don't blame Muslims for the actions of extremists. Just as white people are not blamed for the actions of Neo Nazis or other white power groups. The mains victims of Islamic extremist groups are Muslims.

No he's not he's simply pointing out that western nations have committed many 9/11's in the Muslim world.

Thousands have marched against extremism in Europe the UK. I posted some links earlier in the thread maybe you want to have a look at them. The so called moderates are generally saying what the government of which ever country they're living in want them to say. Nobody takes these moderates seriously among Muslims or Non Muslims which leaves the way clear for the extremists. The mainstream media rarely allow the voice of the majority of Muslims to be heard. It's either some so called moderate or an extremist. There are exceptions such as Mehdi Hassan who is now well known in the British media. The media needs to start engaging more with the majority of Muslims instead of constantly showing the extremists or Uncle Toms. To be fair there are some media outlets who do engage with the majority Muslim opinion. Most however do not.

doubt what very much? Non Muslims did attack Muslims in New York after 9/11, Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It wasn't around the world the video footage was from Palestine and it was fake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlOS7cyE-h8 Note the man in your youtube clip from the celebration.

Thousands of Muslims held a rally in London in protest against extremism. http://www.dawn.com/news/661434/uk-muslims-hold-rally-against-extremism Thousands of mobilized Muslims and Christians alike marched through the streets of Oslo on Monday, expressing what one Muslim cleric called “collective disgust” for violent extremism in the name of Islam. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/08/25/thousands-march-against-extremism/ Manchester Muslims joined thousands across the UK today as part of a three-day event to denounce the extremist group ISIS’ campaign of ‘un-Islamic’ terror. http://www.mancunianmatters.co.uk/content/270669560-stand-against-extremism-manchester-muslims-join-thousands-across-uk-denounce-isis Where is your evidence that Muslims want to fight on mass on British shores?

Far more Muslims living in the Muslim world have been killed by western governments than Non Muslims living in the west have been killed by Muslims. That's something for you to be ashamed about. The fact that our elected government is using its armed forces to commit terrorism in Muslim countries which have never attacked Britain. By doing so they are also inviting retaliatory terrorist attacks on the people of Britain. Why aren't you ashamed about this? ---------- Post added 08-01-2015 at 20:13 ---------- Yes but Muslims have been hurt and killed in hate crimes in Germany and other parts of Europe. The point is this if it was 18000 Muslims protesting against Christianity there would be uproar.

A lot of Muslims do speak out but it's largely ignored. A few days ago 18000 people marched against Islam in Germany. If that had been 18000 Muslims marching against Christianity there would have been uproar.

The reason I'm saying all that is in response to the nonsense comments posted on this thread. Certain posters have no empathy with the people of Pakistan. They just see this as another opportunity to have a pop at Pakistanis. You should be asking them the question you're asking me. ---------- Post added 17-12-2014 at 19:56 ---------- what do you propose Pakistan do about it? America forced Pakistan into a war against the Taliban and 13 years later the Taliban are more active than ever before. It's easy for America to cause the conflict and then leave Pakistan and Afghanistan to pick up the pieces. A similar situation exists in Iraq and Syria caused by America. ---------- Post added 17-12-2014 at 20:03 ---------- You said Pakistan should sort out its own backyard failing to mention that America forced Pakistan into a conflict with the Taliban in the first place and is now leaving Pakistan and Afghanistan to the mess America created. Only being able to sight womens education as an achievement which was not the objective of going into Afghanistan. There is no punchline considering only 30 percent of Pakistanis in the UK are actually from one of the four provinces of Pakistan. The other 70 percent were imported from a handful of villages in Southern Azad Kashmir by Enoch Powell. Doesn't do much for your theory of all Pakistanis coming to England.

The Australian nutcase was motivated by Australian involvement in the bombing and occupation of Muslim countries. Same with the 7/7 bombers the murderers of Lee Rigby in Britain. All this focus on Islam making them do it is a deliberate distraction from the real motivation. If it was Islam making them do it why weren't these types of attacks happening before 9/11. Also why has every such attacker stated clearly that they are doing it for political reasons.

What a nonsense comment. The Taliban were created by America and Pakistan in the first place. The Bush regime then forced Pakistan into a war with them and Pakistan has been facing the consequences of that war ever since. ---------- Post added 16-12-2014 at 21:58 ---------- You're forgetting Americas role in this. ---------- Post added 16-12-2014 at 22:03 ---------- nonsense only about 30% of Pakistanis in the UK are actually from one of the four provinces of Pakistan. The other 70% are all Azad Kashmiris from a handful of villages in the south of that region. They were deliberately imported here by Enoch Powell to do the donkey work of the British. He intended on using the immigrants and kicking them out but things didn't go quite as he'd planned ---------- Post added 16-12-2014 at 22:06 ---------- where did you get that figure from? I can guess:hihi: ---------- Post added 16-12-2014 at 22:13 ---------- What about the leaders of rich and powerful nations. People like George Bush, Tony Blair, Donald Rumsvelt, Paul Wolferwitz, Dick Cheney and so on. Why are they not on trial for war crimes? It's not just individuals or groups who are guilty of terrorism states are also guilty of it. One state in particular has been masaccring children for many years with the support and backing of America and Britain.

He was a white supremacist. White supremacy does have an element of Christianity to it. Some groups more so than others.

During the occupation of Iraq the coalition forces bombed hospitals, killed ambulance drivers, journalists and many other civilians including children and babies. ---------- Post added 04-12-2014 at 19:27 ---------- The doctor at Adenbrooke's abused sick children in his care some of whom were terminally ill. The groomers abused girls with which they formed relationships, on the street. So when comparing the two the doctor is more deserving of the beast title. Also this is not an isolated incident. Many cases of pedophilia and abuse have come to light in which the perpetrators were responsible for the care of their victims.

Which Pakistani community? You seem to know a lot about the so called 'Pakistani community'. Where in Pakistan do you live? Only a tiny proportion of the total number of groomers have been identified as Pakistani. You are talking about British Asians mainly of Azad Kashmiri heritage so why do you keep bringing Pakistan into this? I'm not aware of any cases of grooming taking place at the swimming pool? Yes no does mean no which is the point that all rapists miss and the majority of rapists in the UK are white males. I don't know of any immigrant community in the UK where the majority of women wear a bag over their head to keep themselves safe.

Which fact is being ignored? Which statistics are being manipulated? Do elaborate? ---------- Post added 02-12-2014 at 19:46 ---------- What you have written is a sweeping statement. Refer to my article above to see why you are wrong about grooming gangs being exclusively Pakistani or Somali. Grooming gangs consist of Asians Whites and Blacks who are mainly but not exclusively of British nationality. I'm not sure about Somalis but Pakistanis are a very successful immigrant community. In Canada, Scotland, London and even some cities in the north of England such as Manchester. In all armies around the world you will find soldiers who have been arrested for sex crimes including the American and British armies. ---------- Post added 02-12-2014 at 19:47 ---------- The Asians involved in grooming were mostly born and raised in England. ---------- Post added 02-12-2014 at 19:53 ---------- Some argue that the British Asians involved in grooming were following western culture rather than the culture of their parents or grandparents. Most of these men were involved in drinking alcohol, taking drugs and having sex outside of marriage. All things which are forbidden in Islam. This is something most people don't take into account when they want to blame it on Islam or Pakistani culture.

Do you think that's because there is no collective national identity in England. People who's parents or grandparents migrated to Britain are not classed as English. The English identity remains separate from the British Asian or British Black or British whatever else identity. In many other countries there aren't two different classifications of national identity. If you think this a democracy in which freedom of speech is allowed then why would you have a problem with Muslims talking about the murder of Muslims abroad whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Syria, drone attacks in Pakistan Yemen and elsewhere. It's not only Muslims who talk about this many non Muslims do as well. I also don't see why you would have a problem with Muslims referring to fellow Muslims around the world as brothers and sisters. Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Jews also refer to their co religionists around the world as brothers and sisters. Some people including Muslims refer to all human beings as brothers and sisters. Muslims in this country are defensive for good reason. Constantly being portrayed negatively in the media and having to face religious discrimination as a result will make ppl defensive. So it's unlikely most Muslims will be greeting the average white Brit as brother or sister. However once ppl get to know each other and barriers are broken down Muslims and non Muslims do begin to see each other as brothers and sisters. I have come across plenty of Muslims and Whites referring to each other as brother once they get to know each other and become comfortable in each others company. What you will also find is that some of these grooming gangs are a mixture of British Asian white British and Black British. ---------- Post added 01-12-2014 at 22:01 ---------- A report for the children's commissioner in 2012 found there were 1,514 perpetrators. Of these, 545 were white, 415 were Asian and 244 were black. The ethnicity of 21% of perpetrators was not recorded. Attempts to analyse the Asian figure further runs into problems. Just 35 of the 415 Asians are recorded as having Pakistani heritage and thus highly likely to be Muslim, and only five are recorded as being from a Bangladeshi background. The heritage of 366 of the Asian group is not stated in those figures. However, the view in different parts of law enforcement is that it is wrong to take these figures and cases and say the race or religion of the perpetrator leads to them committing these crimes. A more credible link, says one senior source involved in bringing the criminals to justice, are their occupations. Speaking on condition of anonymity, the source said the demography of certain areas and the makeup of the night-time economy explained the over-representation of Asian offenders. The source said: "Young vulnerable girls migrate to the night-time economy, where they come across taxi drivers and people working in takeaways, who are more likely to be Asian. It is better to focus on the professions of offenders, not their race or religion." Meanwhile, group grooming is a small part of the sexual abuse threat facing Britain's children. Some of those working in protecting children from sexual abuse worry that the wrong message is being given about who poses dangers to children from the media coverage of "Asian grooming gangs". They say the biggest dangers are not just on the street, but online, and the totality of abuse shows far more white people are perpetrators. Court cases later this year will see allegations against mixed race sex gangs, including one with Asian and white suspects, and another with Asian and African men. Cases involving white suspects did not gain the same media attention as those where Asian gang members were convicted. The idea that these are criminals striking when the opportunity arises, regardless of race, is given credence by the leader of the grooming gang in Rochdale. Shabir Ahmed was jailed for attacking a young Asian female as well as young white females. His case suggests opportunity, not race, was the major factor in whom he attacked. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/14/child-grooming-sexual-abuse-race

That's exactly what I said that there is a stigma attached to rape which will prevent victims coming forward because of the shame. This does not mean that in Pakistani culture the victim is blamed for rape rather than the abuser as you have suggested. Also the Pakistani communities in many areas of the UK are largely from rural villages in Azad Kashmir and what goes on in these communities is not representative of Pakistani people in general. Urban Pakistani communities from the Panjab region of Pakistan or Karachi tend to be more educated and liberal minded than those from rural villages in Azad Kashmir. That's why areas with urban Pakistani settlements experience a lot less problems in terms of integration than many areas in the north of England and the Midlands. You can't make sweeping statements about Pakistan and Pakistani people based on a select few people from one small area of rural Azad Kashmir. ---------- Post added 30-11-2014 at 23:59 ---------- Maybe but most of the cab drivers and takeaway owners in Rotherham are Asian.

How do you know they don't regard themselves as British? Let's take Rotherham as an example. The men involved were all from Rotherham, grew up there and spoke with local accents. They were not Pakistani nationals coming over to the UK and forming grooming gangs. This is not like the Albanian or Romanian trafficking gangs. These were local men from the Rotherham area and therefore their ancestral nationality being constantly highlighted is racist.

Where did you get those statistics from? ---------- Post added 30-11-2014 at 23:33 ---------- Absolute nonsense about Pakistani culture not respecting women. You've never lived in Pakistan so how would you know? Secondly in Islam the rape victim is not blamed for being raped and neither is this the case in Pakistani culture or law. There is definitely a stigma attached to rape in all Muslim societies which will prevent victims from coming forward. Of course this is not exclusive to Muslim society even in western society many victims don't come forward for years or don't come forward at all. Many recent cases of sexual abuse highlighted in the media date back decades and most of them involved white males. The reason why it took so long for these cases to come to light is because victims did not come forward until many years after the abuse.

In the cities and towns where this type of grooming has taken place it's not 5% it's much greater. In the night time industries it's majority Asian males.

What we know for sure is if this guy was a Muslim found with explosives extremist material and other weaponry he would've gone away for a very long time for terrorism.

How is it possible to know that he was not intending to use it? Do you make yourself a sandwich for decoration purposes?

So why wasn't it used in this case?