[zippy]

Originally Posted by julesmarie

<snip>

No qualified person in my illness has been contacted, as the ATOS don't do this, they don't even want a medical report from my doctors, I just have to keep sending sick notes in, which isn't a problem, but the atos have put more pressure on GP's, by all that have been turned down, have to have an appointment to receive the sick notes.

Incapacity at least you had a medical with a qualified doctor, not a employee who just filled in your form at a computer.

just to add, on receiving the letter informing me about not entitled to ESA, they added that they recognise I have a disability and or health condition, but i didn't score enough points .

shame you didn't correct some of the innaccuracies in your post when you edited it .

I will point out again , as I and others have pointed out many times before,

1. the assessments are undertaken by Registered Health professionals

2. diagnosis is irrelevant in functional assessments

3. there really does seem to be a culture among the long term sick of adopting the sick role, often ironically being supported by the many people with disabilities and long term health conditions who do work despite their difficulties ...

[juniee]

zippy i hope you never have an accident.
but please remember anyone can have an accident at any time. oh and by the way if this system is so great why is it banned in 15 states in the USA
some of us have worked for years maybe even longer that you have been on this planet.

[Penny Quirk]

Originally Posted by Ms Macbeth

As zippy is saying, just having a condition isn't a guide to whether or not he is fit for work. About 10 years ago my immediate manager was diagnosed with MS, and she is still holding down her demanding job.

The severity of his condition, and how it affects your friend's daily life is the criteria.

I totally agree. I normally just read on this forum, but this thread was enough to make me want to join, to give my thoughts and experiences.

16 years ago I had an operation on my cervical spine which caused a devastating response in the form of an extremely painful condition and one that caused problems with the central and sympathetic nervous system. Until this time I had always worked.

I spent a few years being wheelchair bound, and so badly disabled I could hardly do anything for myself.... and the basis of this was bad advice from doctors who SHOULD have known about my condition (to show, even the experts give bad advice). All the doctors, and I mean all the doctors kept telling me I would never work again, but that is all I wanted to do, be financially independent and good at my job. Their advice made me feel to be far more disabled than I had to be, given my symptoms and condition.

People in pain allow themselves to be more disabled than they need be, through fear (quote from the president of the british pain society).

After four serious suicide attempts and back home from yet another psychiatric assessment regarding my extreme depression I did some soul searching. I had 2 pieces of paper, on one, I wrote down everything I couldn't do, on the other I wrote down everything I could do. At the end of this, it took a week I realised that I was wasting almost all my energy on being angry and depressed, there was no more energy for good things.

I had already been taking an Open University pathway to a degree and one of the subjects I took really helped me work out how I could resolve my dire situation.

I worked hard, I got back to work, it took 7 years but hell, I did it. I am now self employed. My condition is WORSE THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN - but you know what? I cope better because I have a lot in my life. If I had that assessment I know damned well I would be able to carry on with ESA if that is what I was on.

Too many people are fixed view about this. They don't challenge their feelings, or their doctor's advice. IF YOU WANT TO WORK, YOU CAN... If you want to work with your condition or disability, you can! And please, don't bleat on about not being able to get a job - do what I did, find what you are good at and go self employed. I was penniless and near losing my home when I did this, now I am in line to earn a very good income this year!

My disability hasn't changed - my attitude to it has.

[julesmarie]

Originally Posted by zippy

shame you didn't correct some of the innaccuracies in your post when you edited it .

I will point out again , as I and others have pointed out many times before,

1. the assessments are undertaken by Registered Health professionals

2. diagnosis is irrelevant in functional assessments

3. there really does seem to be a culture among the long term sick of adopting the sick role, often ironically being supported by the many people with disabilities and long term health conditions who do work despite their difficulties ...

First point zippy, you don't know anything about my incurable disease, and neither does a registered health professional.

Only a specialist,qualified doctor/consultant can assess my illness, and how ill I am.

If diagnosis is irrelevant in functional assessments, then they shouldn't be included on the medical forms you have to fill in, nor should the been able to lift an arm or bend a knee.

I have worked from leaving school, up until being unable to work, still pay tax and NI, all my dental treatment, etc, anybody would think from your posts, benefits are actually been taken out of your own pocket.

I hope you or your family, or anybody close, has to suffer any illnesses that you have to go through what truly sick people have to do now.

[juniee]

good luck to you pennyquirk and glad that you managed to recover and are able to work
unforunatley some of have incurable and degenartives illness's s and disabilities.
the way some of the people on here go on you would think that people were on fantastic sums of money we are not.
just been reading about carl cooper and his scam jobs is that what you all want because you are playing straight into this goverments hands and this lot wanting us to be in maggies britain again god help us all
21st century food banks what on earth is going on

[Penny Quirk]

Originally Posted by juniee

good luck to you pennyquirk and glad that you managed to recover and are able to work
unforunatley some of have incurable and degenartives illness's s and disabilities.
the way some of the people on here go on you would think that people were on fantastic sums of money we are not.
just been reading about carl cooper and his scam jobs is that what you all want because you are playing straight into this goverments hands and this lot wanting us to be in maggies britain again god help us all
21st century food banks what on earth is going on

I think you misread my post - I have not recovered, it is worse that it ever has been! Unfortunately my disability is also incurable - it will never get better and extremely unlikely to improve. It is also degenerative and involves muscles, the central and sympathetic nervous system and the bone structure. I take morphine, dihydrocodiene, and much more (11 medication types per day) to make sure I am as in control of my condition as I can be. I juggle the medications round so I can drive if I need to, if I need to drive, tough, i put up with a lot more pain and other symptoms until I am home again.

I DO know what it is like to think I am so poorly I'll never work again but I still believe the reality of it is that if you want to to work, you can... I know a solicitor who is so disabled she can't leave her home, but she works full time, from her bed.

[medusa]

Originally Posted by Penny Quirk

I DO know what it is like to think I am so poorly I'll never work again but I still believe the reality of it is that if you want to to work, you can... I know a solicitor who is so disabled she can't leave her home, but she works full time, from her bed.

Good for her that she's able to stay awake long enough and concentrate long enough to work from her bed.

The implication that everybody who has a disability is in a position to be able to work from their bed without assistance from someone else is not really fair to a lot of people though, is it?

How about someone with a brain injury that is severe enough that they have aphasia, or someone with a spinal cord injury and who is entirely dependent on someone else for personal care and everything else, or someone who has a a condition that makes them unable to concentrate, speak to others, dictate typing to a speech recognition program- how do they work?

Your circumstances are YOUR circumstances, and they don't necessarily apply to others.

It's like saying that since Tanni Grey-Thompson can do a marathon in her wheelchair, everybody who uses a wheelchair can manually move their chair 26 miles a day. Quite plainly isn't true.

[Anna B]

Originally Posted by Penny Quirk

I totally agree. I normally just read on this forum, but this thread was enough to make me want to join, to give my thoughts and experiences.

16 years ago I had an operation on my cervical spine which caused a devastating response in the form of an extremely painful condition and one that caused problems with the central and sympathetic nervous system. Until this time I had always worked.

I spent a few years being wheelchair bound, and so badly disabled I could hardly do anything for myself.... and the basis of this was bad advice from doctors who SHOULD have known about my condition (to show, even the experts give bad advice). All the doctors, and I mean all the doctors kept telling me I would never work again, but that is all I wanted to do, be financially independent and good at my job. Their advice made me feel to be far more disabled than I had to be, given my symptoms and condition.

People in pain allow themselves to be more disabled than they need be, through fear (quote from the president of the british pain society).

After four serious suicide attempts and back home from yet another psychiatric assessment regarding my extreme depression I did some soul searching. I had 2 pieces of paper, on one, I wrote down everything I couldn't do, on the other I wrote down everything I could do. At the end of this, it took a week I realised that I was wasting almost all my energy on being angry and depressed, there was no more energy for good things.

I had already been taking an Open University pathway to a degree and one of the subjects I took really helped me work out how I could resolve my dire situation.

I worked hard, I got back to work, it took 7 years but hell, I did it. I am now self employed. My condition is WORSE THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN - but you know what? I cope better because I have a lot in my life. If I had that assessment I know damned well I would be able to carry on with ESA if that is what I was on.

Too many people are fixed view about this. They don't challenge their feelings, or their doctor's advice. IF YOU WANT TO WORK, YOU CAN... If you want to work with your condition or disability, you can! And please, don't bleat on about not being able to get a job - do what I did, find what you are good at and go self employed. I was penniless and near losing my home when I did this, now I am in line to earn a very good income this year!

My disability hasn't changed - my attitude to it has.

Good for you, and good advice.

I'd like to know what you do though, as not everybody has a skill that both survives disablement, and they could make a living from.

[sheff1johnny]

If a person who has a disabillity, (terminal illness), treat them with respect. Encouragment to work would be a better idea. Why not offer a three month work trial, and see if it benefits the person and the employer. If it doesn't then reinstate them on full benefits. Sort out these tory scumbags, who want to cut everything. Countries still in debt. Easy ways to save money.
1. The leveson inquiry...(Will it ever end)
2. Atos £500 million + of taxpayers money spent every four years
3. £100-150 million overurning Atos medical decissions
4. Make the rich pay proper tax.
5. Let couples not lose out on money for living together. (Less housing benefit)

[HeadingNorth]

Originally Posted by Anna B

Good for you, and good advice.

I'd like to know what you do though, as not everybody has a skill that both survives disablement, and they could make a living from.

Not everybody does, which is why there are assessments. All too many people seem to be arguing that everybody does not, which is silly; a lot of disabled people can still work, a lot of them cannot, and we need an assessment programme to find out who falls into which group.

[Penny Quirk]

Originally Posted by medusa

Good for her that she's able to stay awake long enough and concentrate long enough to work from her bed.

The implication that everybody who has a disability is in a position to be able to work from their bed without assistance from someone else is not really fair to a lot of people though, is it?

How about someone with a brain injury that is severe enough that they have aphasia, or someone with a spinal cord injury and who is entirely dependent on someone else for personal care and everything else, or someone who has a a condition that makes them unable to concentrate, speak to others, dictate typing to a speech recognition program- how do they work?

Your circumstances are YOUR circumstances, and they don't necessarily apply to others.

It's like saying that since Tanni Grey-Thompson can do a marathon in her wheelchair, everybody who uses a wheelchair can manually move their chair 26 miles a day. Quite plainly isn't true.

I did not imply that everyone could, or indeed should work. What I think I said was that if people WANT to work, there is usually a way that things can work out.

I put this so people realise there is another way, if you are in a position to take it.

If my message gave just one person the realisation that maybe they CAN go back to work, then what is bad? I was being positive, encouraging and I'm very sorry that people instantly read it in a very negative light.

I struggle badly every day, I have tears every day, I get angry with myself - it is not a walk in the park, believe me, but overall I am pleased I forced myself to do the **** things I had to do to be able to get to this point. I was at a stage that if I didn't do that, I would now be dead. I do not have any friends to support me (they all left when I got ill and tried to kill myself). I have a son who lives close by, he is tremendous, otherwise, I am alone. It is not a nice place to be and if I can help one person regain their pride and be able to work, then so be it, but please don't put me down for trying to help?

I did a hell of a lot of work with the British Pain Society a few years ago, and it was fascinating to hear what doctors say about chronically ill patients when they know we aren't listening!! I did a series of workshops and lectures for anaesthetists, podiatrists, orthopods and the like - to help other people like me - not put them down or to be negative.

I'm sorry some of you seem to have taken my message the wrong way... Perhaps I just realised why I normally read, not contribute.

Too many doctors say things like "you'll never work again" - but why? Humans are resilient, resourceful, so why on earth do we believe that we can't work again, just because a doctor told us we can't? And that is back to my original message - if you want to work there is normally a way it can be done.

[zippy]

Originally Posted by juniee

zippy i hope you never have an accident.
but please remember anyone can have an accident at any time. oh and by the way if this system is so great why is it banned in 15 states in the USA
some of us have worked for years maybe even longer that you have been on this planet.

why do you hope i never have an accident ?

i know my way round these systems through work and a lot of what is being said by people on this thread demonstrates an utter lack of understanding and an unwillingness to be told things about how the system works, and of course knowing how the system works means you know how to get the best results , hence reference made previously to be people getting proper help in applying and renewing awards ...

some of us have worked in healthcare for years and deal with these systems day in day out ...

[zippy]

Originally Posted by julesmarie

First point zippy, you don't know anything about my incurable disease, and neither does a registered health professional.

Only a specialist,qualified doctor/consultant can assess my illness, and how ill I am.

Are you are saying you are cared for 24/7/365 by a Consultant Doctor ?

because guess what if that isn't the case a Registered Health Professional does assess you and your illness ...

or don't you ever see Nurses, Physiotherapists and Occupational Therapists ? what about Practitioner Psychologists ? ever travel in an emergency ambulance with a Paramedic ? ever had an operation? ( which simply wouldn't be able to happen with Operating Department Practitioners and Registered Nurses as well as the Surgeon and an Anaesthetist - a doctor who doesn't specialise in your condition )

If diagnosis is irrelevant in functional assessments, then they shouldn't be included on the medical forms you have to fill in, nor should the been able to lift an arm or bend a knee.

it doesn't really matter what causes a sign or symptom , what a functional assessment is interested in is whether that sign or symptom effects your activities of daily living and if it does to what degree does effect them and what impact assistive technologies have on sign or symptom ...

an example of this would be paraplegia, it doesn't really matter from a functional point of view whether it;s becasue of spina bifida, trauma, spinal infarct or something else, what matters is the fact that you probably can't walk or stand and need to use a wheelchair with aspecialist cushion to get about and to protect skin with altered sensation ...

I have worked from leaving school, up until being unable to work, still pay tax and NI, all my dental treatment, etc, anybody would think from your posts, benefits are actually been taken out of your own pocket.

hate to break it to you they are, I am a tax payer , and I have little sympathy for those who adopt the sick role , because at the end of the day as someone with one type of long term condition working in health care rehabilitating people with life changing injuries or conditions I want my tax to go to those who need the support rather than it subsiding those who choose to live on benefits, and i suspect that many of my patients who hold down demanding jobs despite their long term conditions and the adapatations they need because of it feel the same ...

I hope you or your family, or anybody close, has to suffer any illnesses that you have to go through what truly sick people have to do now.

ad hominems what a brilliant way to win an argument - you have a long term condition this does not give you a free pass to be a pillock ...

[zippy]

Originally Posted by Penny Quirk

I did not imply that everyone could, or indeed should work. What I think I said was that if people WANT to work, there is usually a way that things can work out.

<snip>

spot on Penny ...

[zippy]

Originally Posted by Anna B

Good for you, and good advice.

I'd like to know what you do though, as not everybody has a skill that both survives disablement, and they could make a living from.

doesn't mean people can't learn new skills after a life changing illness or injury ... again there is specific targeted support for people with disabilities ( as per the equality act definitions) to access training and education as well as all the access to work funding and advice ...

[pottedplant]

Originally Posted by Penny Quirk

I did not imply that everyone could, or indeed should work. What I think I said was that if people WANT to work, there is usually a way that things can work out.

I put this so people realise there is another way, if you are in a position to take it.

If my message gave just one person the realisation that maybe they CAN go back to work, then what is bad? I was being positive, encouraging and I'm very sorry that people instantly read it in a very negative light.

I struggle badly every day, I have tears every day, I get angry with myself - it is not a walk in the park, believe me, but overall I am pleased I forced myself to do the **** things I had to do to be able to get to this point. I was at a stage that if I didn't do that, I would now be dead. I do not have any friends to support me (they all left when I got ill and tried to kill myself). I have a son who lives close by, he is tremendous, otherwise, I am alone. It is not a nice place to be and if I can help one person regain their pride and be able to work, then so be it, but please don't put me down for trying to help?

I did a hell of a lot of work with the British Pain Society a few years ago, and it was fascinating to hear what doctors say about chronically ill patients when they know we aren't listening!! I did a series of workshops and lectures for anaesthetists, podiatrists, orthopods and the like - to help other people like me - not put them down or to be negative.

I'm sorry some of you seem to have taken my message the wrong way... Perhaps I just realised why I normally read, not contribute.

Too many doctors say things like "you'll never work again" - but why? Humans are resilient, resourceful, so why on earth do we believe that we can't work again, just because a doctor told us we can't? And that is back to my original message - if you want to work there is normally a way it can be done.

What a fantastic attitude you have PennyQuirk -and no one sensible would have read your earlier posts as implying that every one with a disability can work. Thanks for sharing your tremendous achievement.

[Brin56]

I would really encourage the OP and others following this thread to visit this website - it has valuable information on all the hurdles of the benefit changes (including the DLA merging into PIP.) There are many successful outcomes and a wealth of detail on how to manage the brain dead zombie world of Atos

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/new...une-newsletter

[Penny Quirk]

Originally Posted by Anna B

Good for you, and good advice.

I'd like to know what you do though, as not everybody has a skill that both survives disablement, and they could make a living from.

I sold loads of my personal belongings, some of them were very important to me too, and I retrained for a totally new career. At 50, and with disabilities it was difficult to get anyone to hear me, so I did it myself instead.

Training for a new career at 50 isn't easy, but with a severe disability too, it was a huge challenge, and I had many down days thinking I wasn't good enough for this, or I wasn't clever enough to retrain. But I did, and I am so pleased I persevered through those doubting days.

I am now an accident investigator, and I interview people who have been involved in accidents (at home/work/in public) and determine liability from evidence and from visiting the scene. My scene visits are fraught with worry because of the extreme pain and I find it so difficult to concentrate at times; thankfully, that seems to be when I am back at home so can rest up a little before writing reports etc.

I also interview people who are involved in car insurance fraud (mainly theft) and staged accidents. This is on a self employed basis for some of the big insurance companies, and the work is fascinating!

I really hope this gives someone stuck in the sickness loop/benefit system to urge to try it.

[jamiet1991]

Originally Posted by LeMaquis

You've got the wrong end of the stick here. ESA is for people who can't work
through disability. It's not a question of self-worth.

Anyone who fails an assessment but who feels they can't work should send in a GL24 appeal form within a month asking for a review and stating that they want their ESA to be paid while the appeal is ongoing. Many win their review and others win their appeal if they lose the review.

Some people dont want to work and will do anything not to work even if it mean lieing, am not saying all people do this but a good percentage do. I was on ESA for 6 months and you are suppose to go back to work when you feel fit, so ill take it you got wrong end of the stick thinking you carnt work, i went back and found a job when i felt fit and thats what were all suppose to do. people saying that discrimination is wrong but you dont mind when it comes to working and not having to work, we would all love to sit at home and still get paid. PS this isnt aimed at everyone just the lieing scum that take take take from the ESA.

[jamiet1991]

Originally Posted by Rich

Because according to Government Doctors, I am too disabled to work.

If you do not believe me, go to Walkley House Medical Centre in S6 and ask to see my medical records.

Oh and before anyone starts, the DWP knows all about my volunteering so no, I do not have to declare anything.

How can you be too disabled to work when you are working it might be volunteer but its still work and go see my doctor he will tell you im not fit to work but i chose to work i don't want to be discriminated saying i am disabled because i know i am fit and can work same as you.