[SMoorhouse]

Hi I need some advice; about a year ago we rescued a border collie as a friend for our other border collie. We have had to have a 1-1 training previously as he used to nip my husband when we goes to give me a hug when he is about to leave the house; when I leave the house or we leave together he is fine.

For a while we have been able to manage the situation by distracting him through throwing treats on the floor but recently this has not been working and the aggression is getting worse - last night he really tried to have a go and I had to drag him off. He gets himself worked up and there is no getting through to him.

I am also concerned that this behavior could rub off on our other two dogs the border collie and a deerhound cross greyhound.

Can anyone recommend anything or anyone?

Thank you

Sarah

[medusa]

Hi Sarah

Has your dog been neutered? This sounds rather like your dog believes that you are his and he objects to your husband muscling in on 'his bitch' by giving you a hug. It sounds rather like he needs taking down a peg or two (kindly) in order to understand that the humans are both (or all) above him and that he doesn't have the right to boss the humans around. Neutering often helps in this, if he's not already neutered.

Nipping in border collies sometimes isn't actually anything to do with aggression though, as BCs nip the cattle and sheep to get them moving when they are herding.

Have you tried removing him from the situation by putting him in another room? What happens when you do?

I wouldn't be dragging the dog off anybody to be honest- he's a clever boy (being a BC) and he's perfectly clever enough to understand that either he's a good boy or he's shut away from both of you.

[SMoorhouse]

Yes he has been neutered; I had considered the 'pack leader' situation but at all other times he is fine; OH and I can sit on the bed together and go out together it is just when he goes to leave by himself.

We have tried putting him in another room or outside with distractions (toys/kongs etc) but he ignores all of that and jumps as the door and barks; when I do let him out he has worked himself into a manic state.

To add he can be off with most men; when we first got him and took him to the vets due to the lumps and bumps on him the vet suspects that he had been beaten.

The dragging off was a last resort as he had held of OH and we could not get him out of the 'manic' state

[kimberley123]

Have you possibly tried a cage. Lock him in it when you are going let your oh a hug then when he comes back out give him a treat. This way he can see you in the same room and can see you are not coming to any harm.
He may feel by him putting his arms around you, you are in danger and obviously wants to protect you. By giving him a treat after he will be rewarded for his behavior rather then giving him a treat as a distraction. Hope this helps

Kimberley

[medusa]

Have you tried leaving him to let him work his manic state through and to come to a point of calm at the other end? How long does this last for? What happens when you don't pay him attention? Have you ever left him for long enough to calm down and then rewarded him for the calm?

At some point he does need to be shown that he will be rewarded for the calm and that going mad won't get your attention.

In the words of a dog trainer that we had out to one of the GSDR dogs 'if a dog goes mad for an hour and then you cave in, what are you teaching the dog? You're teaching them that if they work themselves up into enough of a state and continue barking for long enough then you will pay them attention'.

I know what it's like with a dog that comes with a history that you aren't sure about and which causes them unexpected emotional issues- I have one like that too, who arrived with broken legs and all sorts.

It's also worth considering the crate or a baby gate as a way to know that you're close, but if he works himself up to a state in there it's important that you don't pay him any attention at all (talking to him, eye contact, physical contact) whilst he's in there as that will just lead straight back into him knowing that if he gets upset enough you'll come and pay him attention.

[Glennis]

Border collie's are working dogs and have a strong herding instict - they get easily bored and need to be worked and exercised regularly. They are very, very intelligent dogs and as a result probably show aggression due to boredom. I would get some advice from an experienced border collie owner or breeder, or a dog club, such as the kennel club - there is bound to be a border collie interest group or society somewhere in the UK who can offer advice. They tend also to bond with one strong owner - in a similar way a German shepherd will with his police dog handler. Good luck.

I have had another thought, you often see these dogs performing tricks etc at Crufts - and they usually win. Maybe you could look at training and teaching your collie to perform tricks like these, going through tunnels etc to give him something to work at and stretch his mind.

Let me know how you get on, please. I would be interested to know. Thanks.


Here, I have found this link - it gives you some insight into the colli's mentality http://www.bordercollierescue.org/

You have probably got an alert, brainy dog who is just obeying her ancient insticts - she could give you years of activity and pleasure if you get to know her fully. (;-)

[Evei]

Originally Posted by medusa

Have you tried leaving him to let him work his manic state through and to come to a point of calm at the other end? How long does this last for? What happens when you don't pay him attention? Have you ever left him for long enough to calm down and then rewarded him for the calm?

At some point he does need to be shown that he will be rewarded for the calm and that going mad won't get your attention.

That is excellent advice Medusa.

It is scary when a dog goes completely into manic mode(I call it rage). I know from my own experiance there is no stopping it or distraction techniques that will work if it has got that far. We had to put D through his rages around other dogs and stick with it until he calmed down, this could be as long as 15 minutes of none stop aggression towards another dog. We ignored him, had him muzzled and on lead as his aggression was that bad he would randomly bite anything in the way. Eventually he would calm down as it is unsubstainable, and then we could fuss/treat for the calm behaviour. He worked out eventually that if he is calm nothing is going to happen that is nasty/ hurts him. You have to set the situation up as it is no good the other dog/ person being taken away (or not doing what upsets the dog) as that is what the dog wants and has learnt to do to feel safe. They have to work through it completely if you chose to take this path.

The technique is basically flooding, a lot of dog trainers do not like it. As a last resort I found it worked and I have a dog that now happily plays with others. I suppose it is like treating a phobia by confronting it head on....not ideal as the majority people will fail (and possibly be even more scared, however the minority that stick through it will be 'cured' and for us we had already tried everything else via trainers for over a period of 1 1/2 years.

Make sure you have tried everything else first that the trainers advise as there are less harsh techniques that very often work. Good luck and do get help as dogs only get one chance with human aggression.

[robwillow]

I'd be tempted to go back to the 1-2-1s. Maybe try to find some reward based training classes just to get your dog used to being rewarded for good stuff too (if you don't already). BCs are very clever, but they also like exercise, I assume he is getting enough?

[SMoorhouse]

Thank you for all your comments; yes he gets plenty of exercise; although can you ever give a bc enough exercise? and we do reward based training, which is difficult as being an intelligent dog he learns very quickly and gets bored after a couple of goes.

He is a lovely dog in the main it is just when the OH goes to leave that he becomes aggressive.

[Elizabeth13]

BC's need the mental work as well as physical.
He is showing total BC behaviour - nipping, and when someone is leaving. He is trying to herd, and asking a BC not to herd is impossible, because that's what they were (over) bred for.
He clearly has the working collie instincts, so you need to use them but focus them in a positive way. Have you considered finding some 'hobbies' for him? Agility? Flyball? Actually taking him somewhere to try out herding?
He has a job to do but he's not getting a chance to fulfil that position, which is usually when families start seeing their other dogs getting herded or nipped, or their children or other people/dogs (our Peggy likes to try to nip the bum of our male neighbour, and she tries to herd other dogs on walks).

As Wiccaweys collie rescue says:

"You have to remember what Border Collies were originally bred to do. Border Collies herd. It’s what they do. It’s what they will always do. And the chances are, that’s exactly what he’s doing to your friends and family..
When you take a collie into your home, you HAVE to be prepared for this instinct.
What the dog is doing is called nipping. It’s what happens when collies are working sheep, they nip at the sheeps legs and bottoms to make them move. Nipping is part of a collies working instinct. It’s there. It’s instinct.
Contrary to what people say, we do not believe that you can not train a working instinct out of a collie – and why should you?
You chose to have your Border Collie as part of your family – take responsiblilty for that choice and work with your dog – not against him.
What you can do is channel the working instinct in a different direction. Collies need to have a job to do. There are plenty of dog sports out there that Border Collies excel out. Channel them in that direction. Obedience, agility, flyball, working trials – the choice is yours."


If you are worried that this is 'aggression' being seen in your collie, then you need to get an expert in (not just any trainer) that knows aggression/'dominant' controlling dogs, and better yet someone who knows collies and collie traits.

[SMoorhouse]

Unfortunately we are passed nipping; originally we had put this down to his herding instinct, but I now think that this is down to something else. I have been looking on line and have come across Mainline Border Collie Centre based near Bradford so I am going to give them a ring. The last couple of days as soon as he hears the OH coming downstairs his body language changes and then when the OH goes to leave he has started to growl, bare teeth and lunge at him (the dog not the OH).

We have tried him at flyball and it was not nice; as I call it he went into his ‘manic’ state and was completely non responsive. He is quite timid around people he does not know and large groups and sometimes his nervousness comes across as aggression. So we do have difficulty with him when attending classes/group activities.

[Rainrescue]

Thats just what I was going to advise SM. You need to talk to someone who understands the breeds and all its traits - be that a trainer that is involved with them - or contact The Border Collie Trust - who are so knowledgeable and must have seen just about every problem these energy freakies can throw at them.

The centre sounds a great start and they are local - there is also a trainer up there, I believe she is Richmond - who also runs a rescue and does a lot of shepherding - she maybe worth a try finding out.

Poor lad - he will be going through mental torture too - and I would definitely say to stay off Flyball - or any high energy games/work with this type of temperament.

Good luck and come back and keep us updated with how you get on.

[sezbetz]

I havent read word for word all the other posts so appologies if this has been mentioned but a friends dog a few years ago with similar problems was found to have thyroid problems. Might be worth checking this out?? Not sure how much of the issue it would solve but just sprang to mind when reading the OP.

[Glennis]

Originally Posted by sezbetz

I havent read word for word all the other posts so appologies if this has been mentioned but a friends dog a few years ago with similar problems was found to have thyroid problems. Might be worth checking this out?? Not sure how much of the issue it would solve but just sprang to mind when reading the OP.

Really good idea on the thryroid - if its overactive it could very well explain your dogs behaviour.

[SMoorhouse]

I will definitely look into the thyroid line; as after doing research he does seem to have some of the symptoms - he is hyperactive and nervous but we have always put this down to the fact he is a border collie and his history and his breathing is rapid even when resting as well as the aggression.

I will have to make an appointment at the vets for a blood test to get it ruled out which will be fun as he hates the vets and has to be muzzled.