[t020]

More importantly - who cares?

[mojoworking]

Originally posted by t020
More importantly - who cares?

Probably the families of the miners who lost their jobs.

I'd say they cared quite a bit.

[Tony]

Originally posted by t020
More importantly - who cares?

I would think that you would care.

Putting aside the small matter of devastating communities and lives, we now have a greater reliance on other forms of energy generation...
...like wind turbines!!!

[Foxxx]

Originally posted by mojoworking
Of course you'll always find a few "normal" people who admired the mad old cow - mostly those from the "I'm all right Jack" sector who kept their jobs and profited out of Thatcherism.

But a lot of working people from Sheffield suffered under Thatcher and there is an entire generation out there who revile her. Even her own party colleagues and former cabinet ministers now view her as an embarrassment (this was plain to see on the recent two part BBC TV documentary)

Why do you think the Tories hold few, if any, seats in Sheffield?

Despite the current wave of anti-Blair feeling (not without cause, I admit), why do you think that Labour are odds-on to win the next election?



This has to be one of the best quotes I've ever seen on this forum. You should get it framed and present it to some of the miners who lost their jobs in the late 80s. You'll probably end up wearing it, mind

Don't shoot the messager. I merely told you what my friends from Sheffield have told me. They grew up in Sheffield and their family was affected by the strike big time. However, if you ask them now, they will tell you that they think Thatcher was a great leader. In fact one of them wishes she was in control now as we probably wouldn't be in all the mess we are now. Thatcher wouldn't take the soft approach that Blair takes on a lot of things.

As I say, don't shoot the messenger. I had some very interesting chats with my Sheffield friends, since the strike did not affect me and I was curious to hear their opinions.
Laugh as much as you like.

[Ned Ludd]

Originally posted by Foxxx

My friends were effected by the minor strikes but they can also see that she did great things and was a good leader. I said, they disagreed with what happened to the minors but does that mean they can't respect her?

Words fail me. The woman that spawned Blair. Made self-interest the only idea that matters ("there is no such thing as society") millions out of work, industries and communities destroyed in wholesale, BSE.
The cronyism, control freekery, lies, deception, money not morality ethics etc at which New Labour excel were learned at the feet of Thatcher
Good leader, Great things? If that's the truth I'm having a nightmare

[evildrneil]

I think you have to admit she was a good leader - in that she was good at autocratic leadership - think Hitler or Stallin in a blue twinset - whether she was good for the country is an entirely other matter!!!

[Ned Ludd]

Originally posted by Abdul
A joke amongst ex-miners is that Scargill went into the strike with a small house and a big union...and came out of it with a big house and a small union!

If A. Scargill has been reading this thread he's got plenty of evidence to sue Abdul and Lickszz for libel.
In my opinion he's an opinionated Stalinist but suggestions that he'd pocket union member's money are rubbish.
He was investigated by the police following the original allegations and they found absolutely no evidence.
It's more than likely that the same sort of people that planted forged documents in Iraq showing that George Galloway had received £M's from Sadaam were involved in spreading that rubbish.
The fact is that there was a plan for a mass pit closure propramme and that Cortonwood Colliery was deliberately closed to provoke a strike at a time of the government's choosing.
Even apologists for Thatcher wouldn't try to deny that now.

People should remember the actions of the police at that time. They were often being used as a militia and roamed through a number of pit villages and attacking anyone in view.
It showed what Governments are prepared to do to their own citizens if it suits them. We should worry about Blunkett trying to increase his extensive powers.

One issue of The Sheffield Star summed up the srike at the time. The Editorial went at lengths to condemn the miners' picket line violence (even though the A&E Dept. at Rotherham was full of strikers with head injuries) and inside was an article written by a female reporter who praised the bravery of several strikers who intervened when two policeman were beating the c**p out of her in a shop doorway and thereby saved her from serious injury.

[Lickszz]

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
If A. Scargill has been reading this thread he's got plenty of evidence to sue Abdul and Lickszz for libel.
In my opinion he's an opinionated Stalinist but suggestions that he'd pocket union member's money are rubbish.
He was investigated by the police following the original allegations and they found absolutely no evidence.
It's more than likely that the same sort of people that planted forged documents in Iraq showing that George Galloway had received £M's from Sadaam were involved in spreading that rubbish.

Ned,

Where have I said that Scargill has ever 'pocketed' union members money? I said that he seems to have done better out of it all than the 'average' miner. Why?

Regarding Galloway, He is still suing the Daily Telegraph for libel which is due to be heard in November time.

Fawaz Zureikat, Jordanian businessman who was Galloways "agent" in Baghdad was also involved in the leukaemia victim Mariam scam which is being investigated by the Charities Commission and the Attorney General.

I can understand it if you have little or no knowledge of the labyrinthian financial web that exists in the Middle East, few people have, but from the little experience I have I can assure you that millions of dollars can disappear instantly, and reappear anywhere in the world, at will, with an audit trail that is non-existent.

Just think Bank Credit & Commerce International and they were the small fry.

I have had estimates given to me by "friends" that Galloway is sitting on a nest egg in Lebanon/Syria of approx $13 million.

[Tony]

And... without predjudice, I heard the rumour (no doubt that is all that it is) that Mr Scargill secretly collected loads of ruby's and other gems on his trips to the USSR before/ during / after the strike that were meant to support the cause and a few slipped out of his briefcase and into his pocket.

Can you really imagine that happening? Rumours seem to follow people like Mr Scargill.

[Ned Ludd]

I presume no one has problems with me printing off some of the previous comments and forwarding them to Messrs Scargill and Galloway?
The right wing, Christian -fundamentalist (in my opinion) "Christian Science Monitor" has paid Galloway substantial damages and issued a grovelling apology for similar accuastions. The documentary evidence was supposedly 10 years old but forensic evidence indicated they were only a few weeks old.
How did they get to Iraq and who put them there? Was it the same people who forged documents showing that Iraq was attempting to import Uranium from Africa? Only T. Blair insists that this is real evidence now that the CIA, George W, Colin Powell et al have all admitted that they are crude forgeries. (served their purpose at the time though,eh?)
Whether the Telegraph case will prove to have a different ending will probably depend upon the quality of their forgeries.
Galloway has shown poor judgement in his choice of friends but there is nothing wrong with his publicising the 500,000 child deaths caused by UN sanctions or the cancer epidemic brought about by the use of depleted uranium in the Gulf War.

A lot of the stories about Scargill originated from Roger Windsor former Chief Exec of the NUM. It was Windsor who travelled to Lybia unknown to Scargill and Heathfield and met Gadaafi face to face. Great PR job! What were his motives?
Windsor has successfully sued for libel following allegations in the Express that he was working for MI5 during the strike. Even so his behaviour during and after the strike is strange. If anyone is interested in history and not gossip and forged documents, you may like to examine this article in which a respected journalist makes a voluntary and unreserved apology to Scargill about all these allegations.
http://freespace.virgin.net/terry.no...r_june2002.htm

[Tony]

Im sorry Nedd, but I don't quite see where you're heading to or coming from for that matter.

Are you for or against Scargill? For or against free speech? For or against George Galloway?

Sorry if I'm being a bit dopey, or are you just having fun by trying to frighten people? Why would you want to send anything to Scargill or Galloway?

[Ned Ludd]

"Truth and Justice For All" Al Pacino's best film. That sums it up.
I'm against, lies,distortions and character assasination.
I'm against "democratic" governments lying to the people they claim to represent. I'm against a powerful media who are happy to magnify these and whip up a lynch mob hatred of members of the awkward squad, people who won't keep their gobs shut and generally give the establishment a hard time.

There are things about these two men that I don't much like but people should consider how they have become hate figures. I remember in the Miners Strike at a time when the IRA was active, a woman at work asked me if I thought that Scargill was involved in the latest mainland bombings. How could she have developed that theory other than through Scargill's constant demonisation by the media.
It's the enemies of free speech who are trying to nobble Galloway now. They don't want people like him on "Newsnight" accusing Tony B. of being a war criminal. They don't want dissenting views getting a prominent airing.
I'm sure Galloway may have things in his past which are not very flattering but let's not forge documents to stitch him up, then report them as truth and have politicians referring to the news reports as "evidence"

If you bother to read:
http://freespace.virgin.net/terry.n...er_june2002.htm

It will indicate who I am for and against in this INSTANCEand at the same time demonstrate that some of the stories on this thread about Scargill are based on a libel

[Tony]

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I'm against "democratic" governments lying to the people they claim to represent. I'm against a powerful media who are happy to magnify these and whip up a lynch mob hatred of members of the awkward squad, people who won't keep their gobs shut and generally give the establishment a hard time.

That’s just because your bogyman of choice is governments (for whatever reason). For others, including lots of ex (thanks to Scargill) miners, it’s Arthur Scargill.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I remember in the Miners Strike at a time when the IRA was active, a woman at work asked me if I thought that Scargill was involved in the latest mainland bombings. How could she have developed that theory other than through Scargill's constant demonisation by the media.

Don’t be so patronising. Maybe she actually thought it for herself and didn’t need telling.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
If you bother to read:
http://freespace.virgin.net/terry.n...er_june2002.htm
It will indicate who I am for and against in this INSTANCEand at the same time demonstrate that some of the stories on this thread about Scargill are based on a libel

Your link doesn’t work, but I did read through the other link that you posted. It reads like a journo that has had his wrists slapped by his proprietor and is in fear of being personally sued, and at the same time has a personal issue with Maxwell that he can now get off his chest as he’s dead and cant sue!

You see… its all a matter of perception.

What I do see is that in the same post you both praise and lambast the same media that you claim to hate, depending on where it sits within your own social pretentions. You build a case that simply suits yourself - something that you criticise others of doing... j'accuse! The message coming across from you is a little muddled.

[max]

Originally posted by Tony
For others, including lots of ex (thanks to Scargill) miners, it’s Arthur Scargill.

That really is a load of tosh. If Arthur went into any miners' welfare institution in the country he'd be welcomed with open arms. I don't think the same could be said of Thatcher, however.

[Tony]

Its not tosh Max... but the point I was making is that people choose their own bogyman. Ones persons hero is anothers villain.

[boyface]

well for what it's worth, I've only just read this thread and I'm going to post my opinion.

Before living in Sheffield I grew up in a mining town called Blyth in Northumberland. This whole town was based around the mine. When Thatcher began her persecution of the miners we were the only house in our street who were not directly employed by the mine. At this time the local community was far from rich but people had an honest wage and were doing an honest days work.

When Thatcher began her systematic closure of the mines the community was thrown into disarray. It was not unusual for all the kids in the street to be in our house getting a meal at tea time. This really pulled communities together (and tore them apart in some cases) in a way Thatcher and her supporters will never know and never understand.

The pit was just at the bottom of our street and there were running battles with the police regularly right in front of our house. I can tell you many times no numbers were worn, police brutality from those shipped in was very high, and the rights to protest were made a mockery of by Thatchers illegal army. It wasn't uncommon for a police van to be waiting at th school gates and many elder kids were dragged into the back and taken away to be given a "talking to". This happened, I seen it.

Since the closure of the mines the town of Blyth has been in a spiralling decline for many years until very recently when it is on the up. People's lives are ruined. People have existed in a life of poverty. Heroin and drug use has soared. Before anyone says this is a person's own choice, of course it is, but case study after case study shows the direct link between poverty and drug addiction.

Many of my school mates who's dads were miners and then became unemployed are now dead from Heroin. They had no job, they had no means of a decent lifestyle. Who do I blame, Thatcher

I've got a song by Hefner called "the day that Thatcher dies", and the day she does die I will be playing it on repeat and the people from Blyth will all be out that night and be glad that she is gone. In effect she killed and destroyed people's lives for her own greedy agenda of strengthening the rich and keeping down the poor.

I know people will probably cut and paste bits of this and have a go, but it's what I think, how I seen it, and I'm not frightened to tell it like it was.

Thanks.

[Ned Ludd]

Originally posted by Tony
Don’t be so patronising. Maybe she actually thought it for herself and didn’t need telling.

Patronising? Thank you . Let's not let facts intervene,eh?
The point is this woman developed her theory as a result of the climate created by the media .

You think the journalist had his arm twisted over 15 years after his original article?

Originally posted by Tony
The message coming across from you is a little muddled.

OK. The comments in this thread about Scargill receiving money, rubies etc from Lybia and Russia and the suggestions that dishonesty was involved in his house purchase, suggestions that money donated to the strikers' social funds never got past Scargill all originated from Roger Windsor, the former Chief Exec of the NUM speaking to the press nearly 20 years ago. (even if some contributors to this thread don't realise this)
FACT: French courts ordered Windsor to pay back £29.000 to the French Miners Union after he failed to pass it on to the NUM. To my mind he stole this money when people were going hungry.
FACT: French courts have found that Windsor made a fraudulent mortgage application which involved his wife's forged signature.
FACT: Windsor has been found guilty of the same sort of offences that he was accusing Scargill of.

Of course if a person is involved in criminal activities what better smokescreen than to point the finger a hate figure? Of course some people aren't interested in facts, it's easier to accuse people of being patronising than deal with those.

[Tony]

Ummm I don't have a problem with facts. Though I'm confused as to how Windsor being charged makes Scargill innocent??? If you're going to use semantics, use them correctly please.

However, because you do seem rather smug. I suggest that you go down into the Dearne Valley, where my family is from and talk to them about Scargill. They may not like Thatcher much, but Scargill isn't very far behind her. They worked out long ago that Scargill was in it for his own political idioms, regardless of how he redressed it to suit the union situation. I simply point you to the .Socialist Labour Party website where you can read an interview with ex IRA terrorist and murderer Martin McGuinness.

More generally, I merely casually commented on issues that I had also heard first hand from primary sources. I'm sure you know what that means. However... I know when to stop on a public forum, so thats as far as it goes.

I am still curious as to why you are so keen on helping Scargill and Galloway take legal action against members of Sheffield Forum.

[dragonsoup]

Cant believe that people are still bitter about this but here goes: how many lives were ruined during the miners dispute i.e. houses reposessed, divorces, people never working again, and you still think arthur is god.
Who lives in a big house and is still ranting about a government that disapeared ages ago. This person never did much work if truth be known.
When in charge of 'arthurs castle' in Barnsley, have any of you any idea if any of the benefits afforded to the leader of the union were abused?

[dragonsoup]

When Thatcher began her systematic closure of the mines ?

Not systematic at all, done in one fell swoop with the help of a man that refused a ballot or democracy in plain English.