[Justin Smith]

Although I have nothing against wind power as a basic principle, what happens when there`s no wind ?
I heard they had to build an equivalent amount of conventional power generation plant (whenever they constructed a wind farm) so as to provide back up, thus making wind power even more expensive than it already is.
Furthermore the back up plants take time to build up power so they have to be kept "spooling" (i.e. running with no load) all the time, which obviously wastes a certain amount of the power that the wind generation was supposed to save.
Can anyone confirm this ?

[Stoatwobbler]

Originally Posted by Justin Smith

Wind farms, what really happens when there`s no wind ?

We all get extra portions of baked beans to make up for it!

[Fogey]

When there is no wind there should be a switch to something else on the grid, - wind as a solution should be one part of a massively decentralised network of less environmentally damaging power generation which is extremely unlikely to be completely without power supply all at once.

Solar power on roofs, hydro electric, wind turbines, tidal barrages e.t.c.

Of course this all requires the government to back a policy of decentralised network and micro generation rather than pouring vast sums of public money and commitment into nuclear and coal power stations.

It also should really have been committed to about 10 years ago when the country had the money to make a difference with it.

[Black_Omen]

Originally Posted by Fogey

It also should really have been committed to about 10 years ago when the country had the money to make a difference with it.

isn't hindsight a bitch?

[epiphany]

Originally Posted by Justin Smith

Although I have nothing against wind power as a basic principle, what happens when there`s no wind ?

Just use electricity to power them.

[L00b]

Originally Posted by Justin Smith

what happens when there`s no wind?

Are you familiar with the principle of communicating vessels?

Picking easy numbers to illustrate the principle:

(i) When there's lots of wind,
* windfarm provides 100% of Grid requirement using 0 resource (wind is free)
* power station provides 0% of Grid requirement, using 1 resource to spool

(i) When there's medium wind,
* windfarm provides 50% of Grid requirement using 0 resource (wind is free)
* power station provides 50% of Grid requirement, using 50 resources

(ii) When there's no wind,
* windfarm provides 0% of Grid requirement using 0 resource
* power station provides 100% of Grid requirement using 100 resources

It's vastly more complicated of course (power stations still provide most of the Grid requirements), and wind energy production is still fraught with problems of Grid integration to this day, but in a nutshell, that's it.

I think it's wrong to state that an "equivalent amount of conventional power generation plant has to be built whenever a wind farm is constructed so as to provide back up" and see windfarms as unnecessary capital expenditure because of that, firstly because of the existing conventional power generation structure (it's not as if power generation in this country started with the first "wind farm/power plant backup" tandem) and secondly because the idea is to gradually replace increasing amounts of the conventional power generation infrastructure with renewable energy solutions, so that less and less of the infrastructure requires 1-100 resources (per my example above) over time.

[Justin Smith]

Originally Posted by L00b

Are you familiar with the principle of communicating vessels?

Picking easy numbers to illustrate the principle:

(i) When there's lots of wind,
* windfarm provides 100% of Grid requirement using 0 resource (wind is free)
* power station provides 0% of Grid requirement, using 1 resource to spool

(i) When there's medium wind,
* windfarm provides 50% of Grid requirement using 0 resource (wind is free)
* power station provides 50% of Grid requirement, using 50 resources

(ii) When there's no wind,
* windfarm provides 0% of Grid requirement using 0 resource
* power station provides 100% of Grid requirement using 100 resources

It's vastly more complicated of course (power stations still provide most of the Grid requirements), and wind energy production is still fraught with problems of Grid integration to this day, but in a nutshell, that's it.

I think it's wrong to state that an "equivalent amount of conventional power generation plant has to be built whenever a wind farm is constructed so as to provide back up" and see windfarms as unnecessary capital expenditure because of that, firstly because of the existing conventional power generation structure (it's not as if power generation in this country started with the first "wind farm/power plant backup" tandem) and secondly because the idea is to gradually replace increasing amounts of the conventional power generation infrastructure with renewable energy solutions, so that less and less of the infrastructure requires 1-100 resources (per my example above) over time.

But a significant amount of the existing generating capacity will be forced to close in the next few years so they`ve got to build new conventional power stations as back up for when there`s no wind.
The problem is that power demand is not an optional extra, it`s got to be there when people want it, therfore I`m unconvinced about wind power even if it wasn`t so expensive. It may be relatively uncommon to have no wind in this country but it does happen so therefore you must have an entire conventional electricity generating system stood there just for that time.
And that`s unbelievably inefficient, wasteful and above all, expensive.

Wind may be free but the machines required to extract the power from it most definitely aren`t free.

Tidal power is something else, but I thought environmentalists were not in favour of the most obvious location for that, i.e. the Severn barrier. In the case of the latter I think it`d be a great shame if the Severn bore ceased to exist, but if it`s a choice between me switching on my lights and the Severn Bore there`s only going to be one winner, and, unfortunately, it`s not going to be the Severn Bore......

[Justin Smith]

Originally Posted by Fogey

When there is no wind there should be a switch to something else on the grid

Like what exactly.

There`s never going to be enough sun in this country to reliably provide power from solar, and anyway, what about the 12hrs when the sun is on the other side of the world. When we need power the most is in the winter, and that`s when we`ve got least light !

Hydro electricity is the ultimate in clean energy but the most viable schemes are already in operation, extra ones will be very expensive and possibly have there own problems getting planning permission. Ironically many environmentalists may be in opposition to a fair number of them, the Severn barrier being a perfect example. I accept that`s actually tidal power, but it`s an example of the fact that some environmentalists aren`t being realistic.

[andyofborg]

all the unemployed people will be plugged into the matrix to provide electricity for the rest of us

[Greybeard]

What nobody seems to have paid much attention to is a local means of storing electricity when the wind farms are producing a surplus. Pumped storage is hugely expensive and anyway there are few if any suitable sites along the North Sea coast.

[sandie]

I have looked at other post replies and find a lack of information and knowlege on the subject.
I work with the so called Renewables mainia and it is not all it is cracked up to be.It is a load of "Hot Air"

Electricity generated from renewable power sources is, without doubt a powerful weapon for the world in in the fight to save the planet and achieve energey independence.
However renewables will have to overcome many chalanges including economic competitveness, development factors, supply concerns and public policy issues.
Renewable power is perceined as clean and virtually "free" by the public. In fact the reality is quite different.
Though the raw fuell in the form of wind, water or solar are free, the costs involved of transforming the energy into usable electricity and delivering it to the customer are not.
In fact , from the customer's point of view, current well-established technologies such as coal,oil, gas hydro and nuclear are much more competitive .


I could write pages on this subject as I deal with it every week on a practical and design level

[eckerslike]

The big problem with many wind turbines is they require electric motors to turn them when the wind drops. If the blades are stopped and a sudden gust catches them it can cause massive damage. I note that the two turbines near Catcliffe are never working and have lost their blades in the wind.

[Justin Smith]

Originally Posted by eckerslike

The big problem with many wind turbines is they require electric motors to turn them when the wind drops. If the blades are stopped and a sudden gust catches them it can cause massive damage. I note that the two turbines near Catcliffe are never working and have lost their blades in the wind.

I can see a few wind farms when I go on walks about N Sheffield and it`s very rare to ever see all the turbines working. I can remember once when we had strong gales about and thinking at least we`ll be getting some power out of this, but as far as I can remember none of the turbines was even turning ! I`d wondered if they`d been feathered to prevent damage or something ?

I just want to reiterate that I`m not against wind energy as a basic principle, I just need quite a bit of convincing that it`s :
A Economic
B Reliable

[Justin Smith]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

What nobody seems to have paid much attention to is a local means of storing electricity when the wind farms are producing a surplus. Pumped storage is hugely expensive and anyway there are few if any suitable sites along the North Sea coast.

Pumped storage would be a good way of improving the reliability of wind (and solar) power generation but as you say it`s very expensive......

[Justin Smith]

Originally Posted by eckerslike

The big problem with many wind turbines is they require electric motors to turn them when the wind drops. If the blades are stopped and a sudden gust catches them it can cause massive damage.

Is that really true ? ! ?

[$nob]

I saw a conventional windmill break in a storm in Utrecht last year, very dangerous. This one happened in Denmark

[Fogey]

Alright, all those bitching about the cost of wind farms and indeed any other form of renewable energy.

The world is running out of its finite 'stored fossil fuels'. And a switch to nuclear still relies on a finite 'store of uranium'.

However cheap or expensive any form of power is, you can't buy what doesn't exist anymore.

[andyofborg]

Originally Posted by Fogey

The world is running out of its finite 'stored fossil fuels'. And a switch to nuclear still relies on a finite 'store of uranium'.

back in the 80's, there were concerns about the size of uranium reserves, the answer then was "fast breeder" technology but that never took off because of concerns that the plutonium it produced would be diverted into weapons rather than power generation

[Justin Smith]

Originally Posted by Fogey

Alright, all those bitching about the cost of wind farms and indeed any other form of renewable energy.

The world is running out of its finite 'stored fossil fuels'. And a switch to nuclear still relies on a finite 'store of uranium'.

However cheap or expensive any form of power is, you can't buy what doesn't exist anymore.

But it isn`t just a matter of how expensive it is, it`s also how reliable, or not, it is.
I can`t imagine there are many people, apart from those with shares in oil/gas/coal who are against wind power out of dogma, but there are practical questions which need to be answered and nobody on here has answered them yet.
Incidentally it`ll be a long long time before the world runs out of oil, gas and (especially) coal.
In fact it won`t ever run out of any of them, there will just reach a point where the cost of extracting them becomes too high to bother.

[Longcol]

Originally Posted by Justin Smith

Although I have nothing against wind power as a basic principle, what happens when there`s no wind ?

And how many days do we have when there is no wind?