[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

Or have a look through this forum for the figures that were posted not long ago showing the official numbers from the governments web site for people convicted and categorised by race.

Most wanted means nothing!

Hi Slacko.

I'm not going to argue with you for long, because it is rather pointless trying to argue with someone who has such a narrow world view. You also have a history of ignoring pertinent questions. I've asked you one anyway, but I doubt that you will be able to answer it.

According to the latest statistics that I have at my disposal, approximately 80% of crime in the UK is committted by white people.

Similarly, approximately 80% of those convicted of a crime in the UK are male. The vast majority of these are under 40 years old.

In other words, young white males are the highest offending group in the UK. Yet you gleefully seize upon a comment about ethnic minorities commiting crimes. Is there a reason why you ignore the facts and allow your prejudices to take over?

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

Hi Slacko.

I'm not going to argue with you for long, because it is rather pointless trying to argue with someone who has such a narrow world view. You also have a history of ignoring pertinent questions. I've asked you one anyway, but I doubt that you will be able to answer it.

According to the latest statistics that I have at my disposal, approximately 80% of crime in the UK is committted by white people.

Similarly, approximately 80% of those convicted of a crime in the UK are male. The vast majority of these are under 40 years old.

In other words, young white males are the highest offending group in the UK. Yet you gleefully seize upon a comment about ethnic minorities commiting crimes. Is there a reason why you ignore the facts and allow your prejudices to take over?

Nice. You managed an insult in your first line and then quote what you claim to be facts with no reference.

I can only guess what you are referring to are percentage figures of people convicted. This would obviously sway a larger percentage toward white people because they are a majority percentage in the UK.

The figures provided in an earlier thread, were from the Governments, Home Office, Official figures for criminals "convicted" and they illustrated that black people committed more crime in REAL terms. There are more white people in prison because there are more white people in the UK. The number of black people committing crime is disproportionate with their number in the UK. There is a higher number of a black males out of 10 in prison than there is a white male out of 10. Those are REAL figures and they are here somewhere recently on the forum at SF. Undisputable and the link was provided too. I'll try to remember where it is.

Now, where are these statistics YOU have at your disposal?

[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

Nice. You managed an insult in your first line and then quote what you claim to be facts with no reference.

I did that deliberately. I knew that you would ask for a source...

Originally Posted by slacko

The figures provided in an earlier thread, were from the Governments, Home Office, Official figures for criminals "convicted" and they illustrated that black people committed more crime in REAL terms. There are more white people in prison because there are more white people in the UK. The number of black people committing crime is disproportionate with their number in the UK. There is a higher number of a black males out of 10 in prison than there is a white male out of 10. Those are REAL figures and they are here somewhere recently on the forum at SF. Undisputable and the link was provided too. I'll try to remember where it is.

... and I suspected that you would post your point of view without attempting to back it up with a credible source, or even any numbers. It seems that I was correct.

It is true that if you look at relative numbers, then some ethnic mnorities commit proportionally more crime than the indigenous population.

It is also true that males commit proportionally more crimes than females.
It is also true that young people commit proportionally more crimes than old people.
It is also true that poor people commit proportionally more crimes than rich people.

Yet you don't seem as excited by the last three points. You seem to be very exercised by the first point. Why is that?

Originally Posted by slacko

Now, where are these statistics YOU have at your disposal?

I got my statistics from the latest Ministry of Justice, Section 95 report. Where did yours come from?

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

I did that deliberately. I knew that you would ask for a source...
... and I suspected that you would post your point of view without attempting to back it up with a credible source, or even any numbers. It seems that I was correct.

It is true that if you look at relative numbers, then some ethnic mnorities commit proportionally more crime than the indigenous population.

It is also true that males commit proportionally more crimes than females.
It is also true that young people commit proportionally more crimes than old people.
It is also true that poor people commit proportionally more crimes than rich people.

Yet you don't seem as excited by the last three points. You seem to be very exercised by the first point. Why is that?



I got my statistics from the latest Ministry of Justice, Section 95 report. Where did yours come from?

I'd like to see your statistics. Odd how you attempt to call me for not posting a link for figures quoted when YOU have done exactly that! If I spend my time finding the link for you, are you going to say you apologise to me?

The figures I quoted were posted on THIS forum and came from the Home Office web site. in REAL terms, BLACK and other ethnicities commit MORE crime in the UK than white people for their percentage of population. I'm not going to be sidetracked by another other categorisations. Sure young people commit more crime. But they are also more likely to be the victim.

You are going to have to live with that.

[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

I'd like to see your statistics. Odd how you attempt to call me for not posting a link for figures quoted when YOU have done exactly that! If I spend my time finding the link for you, are you going to say you apologise to me?

I've told you exactly where I got my information from.

I don't need you to find the information for me, I already have it.

Originally Posted by slacko

figures I quoted were posted on THIS forum and came from the Home Office web site. in REAL terms, BLACK and other ethnicities commit MORE crime in the UK than white people. I'm not going to be sidetracked by another other categorisations. Sure young people commit more crime. But they are also more likely to be the victim.

You are going to have to live with that.

You have quoted no figures. You have simply referred to some half remembered stuff posted on here by someone else. Do some proper research before posting your nonsense.

As it happens, you are correct in your claim. But I am correct in my claims too. Can you see any connection between the two issues... or do you really believe that crime is simply a matter of black and white?

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

I've told you exactly where I got my information from.

I don't need you to find the information for me, I already have it.

So it is OK for you to quote figures and claim they are correct because YOU have seen them?

I want to see them to confirm what you are claiming is correct!

Originally Posted by sibon

You have quoted no figures. You have simply referred to some half remembered stuff posted on here by someone else. Do some proper research before posting your nonsense.

As it happens, you are correct in your claim. But I am correct in my claims too. Can you see any connection between the two issues... or do you really believe that crime is simply a matter of black and white?

I KNOW I am correct.

I have known I am correct all along. From the moment the guy posted a comment about crimewatch appearing to illustrate that most of the featured crimes were by black people I knew it was roughly representative. (although not quite as high as he thought)

Would you like a few figures?

The number of black people in prison as a proportion of the total population was 7.3 in 1,000. That compares to 1.3 per 1,000 for white people and 1.7 per 1,000 for Asian people.
From the Home Office.

Of all those sentenced to custody in the second quarter of 2005, one in five was from a minority ethnic group. 35 per cent of minority ethnic prisoners are foreign nationals. At 58 per cent, black prisoners account for the largest number of minority ethnic prisoners and their numbers are rising - whereas the prison population grew by just over 12 per cent between 1999 and 2002, the number of black prisoners increased by 51 per cent. Press releases concerned with race and prison can be found here.
From the Prison Reform Trust web site

And no. I don't believe crime is a matter of black or white. I don't even understand what that statement/question means.

To get back to the topic, I think, without really knowing a great deal about Islamic Justice, that there appears to be no lack of fear when it comes to handing out certain punishments in Islamic Law. Yet our Justice system would appear to be ruled by fear. Fear of upsetting the criminal.

[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

So it is OK for you to quote figures and claim they are correct because YOU have seen them?

I want to see them to confirm what you are claiming is correct!

Then, go and look them up. It isn't difficult to do. My claims are true though, straight from a Government Report.

Originally Posted by slacko

I have known I am correct all along. From the moment the guy posted a comment about crimewatch appearing to illustrate that most of the featured crimes were by black people I knew it was roughly representative. (although not quite as high as he thought)

Would you like a few figures?

The number of black people in prison as a proportion of the total population was 7.3 in 1,000. That compares to 1.3 per 1,000 for white people and 1.7 per 1,000 for Asian people.
From the Home Office.

That seems about right. Now, if you add in data that shows the relative poverty of these groups, then you might begin to understand why these differences exist. I'm not making excuses for criminals here, but if we want to reduce crime, surely we need to open our minds a bit and try to understand what makes people steal and murder.

Originally Posted by slacko

And no. I don't believe crime is a matter of black or white. I don't even understand what that statement/question means.

You seem to be claiming that race is a dominant factor in criminality. I'm claiming that it is much more complex than that. We must also factor in age, poverty and gender. They are as important, if not more important.

Originally Posted by slacko

To get back to the topic, I think, without really knowing a great deal about Islamic Justice, that there appears to be no lack of fear when it comes to handing out certain punishments in Islamic Law. Yet Justice system would appear to be ruled by fear. Fear of upsetting the criminal.

In my opinion, we have allowed the burden of proof to be set too high for many petty crimes. Young people escape justice by lying and confusing. It is the proof "beyond reasonable doubt" element that needs looking at. I would prefer to see theft and street robbery in particular tried "on the balance of probabilities". We make it too difficult to convict, even obvious criminals.

[Plain Talker]

Originally Posted by sibon

Hi Slacko.

I'm not going to argue with you for long, because it is rather pointless trying to argue with someone who has such a narrow world view. You also have a history of ignoring pertinent questions. I've asked you one anyway, but I doubt that you will be able to answer it.

According to the latest statistics that I have at my disposal, approximately 80% of crime in the UK is committted by white people.

Similarly, approximately 80% of those convicted of a crime in the UK are male. The vast majority of these are under 40 years old.

In other words, young white males are the highest offending group in the UK. Yet you gleefully seize upon a comment about ethnic minorities commiting crimes. Is there a reason why you ignore the facts and allow your prejudices to take over?

OK, so we have it sorted, sibon...

deport all poor, young, white males... sorted! A crime free UK

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

Then, go and look them up. It isn't difficult to do. My claims are true though, straight from a Government Report.

Would you email me this government report you have?

Originally Posted by sibon

That seems about right. Now, if you add in data that shows the relative poverty of these groups, then you might begin to understand why these differences exist. I'm not making excuses for criminals here, but if we want to reduce crime, surely we need to open our minds a bit and try to understand what makes people steal and murder.

Poverty is not an excuse for turning to crime.

Originally Posted by sibon

You seem to be claiming that race is a dominant factor in criminality. I'm claiming that it is much more complex than that. We must also factor in age, poverty and gender. They are as important, if not more important.

Nope. 3 of you jumped on a guy who made a comment about crimewatch. Let's stick to the point. HE was more accurate the the 3 respondents.

Originally Posted by sibon

In my opinion, we have allowed the burden of proof to be set too high for many petty crimes. Young people escape justice by lying and confusing. It is the proof "beyond reasonable doubt" element that needs looking at. I would prefer to see theft and street robbery in particular tried "on the balance of probabilities". We make it too difficult to convict, even obvious criminals.

Couldn't agree more.

[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

Would you email me this government report you have?

If I did that, then I would have to kill you.

Originally Posted by slacko

Poverty is not an excuse for turning to crime.

I didn't say it was.
It is a factor though, and an important one.

Originally Posted by slacko

Nope. 3 of you jumped on a guy who made a comment about crimewatch. Let's stick to the point. HE was more accurate the the 3 respondents.

That is not true. There is a much bigger correlation between gender and crime than there is between race and crime.

Originally Posted by slacko

Couldn't agree more.

I feel strangely uncomfortable

[slacko]

Originally Posted by Plain Talker

OK, so we have it sorted, sibon...

deport all poor, young, white males... sorted! A crime free UK

No. If you did that, then almost 100% of crime would be committed by the disproportionate numbers of ethnics already committing crime.

The number of black people in prison as a proportion of the total population was 7.3 in 1,000. That compares to 1.3 per 1,000 for white people and 1.7 per 1,000 for Asian people.

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

If I did that, then I would have to kill you.

You are not a spy are you?

Originally Posted by sibon

I didn't say it was.
It is a factor though, and an important one.

It IS a factor. But it still doesn't alter the facts.

Originally Posted by sibon

That is not true. There is a much bigger correlation between gender and crime than there is between race and crime.

It IS true mate. The guy said when he watched Crimewatch, there appeared to be a large %age of the featured criminals which were black (or ethnic). He got called on it, but he's not far off.

Originally Posted by sibon

I feel strangely uncomfortable

weird innit?

[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

The number of black people in prison as a proportion of the total population was 7.3 in 1,000. That compares to 1.3 per 1,000 for white people and 1.7 per 1,000 for Asian people.

There are 16 males in prison for every female. The population of the UK is split more or less 50/50. Would you like to do a similar calculation for the proportions of males and females in prison?

What should we do with men when they commit so much crime compared to women?

[sibon]

Originally Posted by slacko

You are not a spy are you?

If I told you that....

Originally Posted by slacko

It IS true mate. The guy said when he watched Crimewatch, there appeared to be a large %age of the featured criminals which were black (or ethnic). He got called on it, but he's not far off.

It is truer to say that a very large percentage of the featured criminals are male.... and under 30 ... and probably poor... and probably poorly educated.

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

There are 16 males in prison for every female. The population of the UK is split more or less 50/50. Would you like to do a similar calculation for the proportions of males and females in prison?

What should we do with men when they commit so much crime compared to women?

Not sure we should be going down this street. It's a bit off-topic.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but in my humble opinion, a criminal is a criminal. Male or female.

[slacko]

Originally Posted by sibon

If I told you that....

It is truer to say that a very large percentage of the featured criminals are male.... and under 30 ... and probably poor... and probably poorly educated.

I'll compromise. It is EQUALLY true to state that.

Can something be "truer"?

[Berlin]

Originally Posted by slacko

I'll compromise. It is EQUALLY true to state that.

Can something be "truer"?

It certainly can but only when it is.

[slacko]

Originally Posted by Berlin

It certainly can but only when it is.

I can understand how a shape can be truer than another shape.
I can understand how a lover can be truer than a previous lover.

I'd be happy for you to explain how the truth can be truer.

Surely, in this context, the truth is the truth. You cannot have something truer than the truth can you?

[Thebanginman]

Originally Posted by Halibut

I couldn't work out what he was on about either.

Its not that hard to understand if you connect to appropriate thread..OOPs sorry Iv just seen whose post Iv just replied to...cancel that first statement

[tab1]

Originally Posted by slacko

To get back to the topic, I think, without really knowing a great deal about Islamic Justice, that there appears to be no lack of fear when it comes to handing out certain punishments in Islamic Law. Yet our Justice system would appear to be ruled by fear. Fear of upsetting the criminal.

So do you reckon it's because of lack of that fear of locking up black people compared to white folks that we have this apparent disparity?

Or do you maintain the colour of the skin is forcing them to be predisposed to commit crime?