How to sack someone with repeated sick notes who's 'faking it'?

SHsheff · 28-08-2009, 16:50

My friend has a small business with a member of staff who has long periods of time (a fortnight, a month) signed off with 'joint pains' but at the same time is a member of a running club and goes for regular runs.

It's really affecting my friend's business and she can't afford to keep paying the man's wages as well as having to pay for someone else to do their work.

She's been advised that, as long as the chap is signed off by the GP there isn't anything she can do about it, apart from keep paying the wages.

I'm not sure (now I'm typing this) if there's a contract that states that sick pay will be paid but I doubt it; I suspect that the payments have been made in good faith. Presumably, the length of time that sick pay has to be made will depend on the contract; I'll speak to my friend about this.

However, the situation is becoming intolerable anyway. What is the procedure, does anyone know, about getting rid of the offender? Can you issue written warnings? Presumably this is a bit tricky - warning someone not to be sick seems a bit dodgy.

The alternative solution is to video the man running, then sack him, and be prepared to show the video to a tribunal if it comes to that...

Your thoughts, please?

Magilla · 28-08-2009, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHsheff

Your thoughts, please?

Not that I am an expert on such matters but I believe after a certain amount of sick days, you are only entitled to SSP payed by the government?

Might be worth investigating since SSP is usually pretty crap, around the same levels as jobseekers allowance if I recall correctly.

1960boy · 28-08-2009, 17:13

SSP is £8 per day, after 6 months it is all you'll get.

DYKWIA · 28-08-2009, 17:38

Im i right in thinking that a company has no legal requirement to keep paying anyones wages in full should they be off on the sick regardless of if they have a sick note or not.

I think this chap maybe taking the **** and i wonder how quick his joint pains would clear up if he was only getting ssp.

chem1st · 28-08-2009, 17:46

Joint pains, its a pain they're so expensive!

RIZRAT · 28-08-2009, 17:47

The employer has NO obligation to pay sick pay to an employee UNLESS the contract of employment (signed within 13 weeks of commencement of employment) states they will pay sick pay for X amount of weeks. Thats FACT...

Cyclone · 28-08-2009, 17:51

Rizrat is correct, the only legal entitlement is SSP, anything above that is governed by the contract.
I'd go down the video route anyway and give him a final written warning or just dismiss him if she doesn't think it will help. Show him the video when he's dismissed so that he doesn't waste anyones time going to tribunal.

Aries22 · 28-08-2009, 18:16

You could send him to see an independant Doctor of your choice, that should settle the matter.

chimay · 28-08-2009, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIZRAT

The employer has NO obligation to pay sick pay to an employee UNLESS the contract of employment (signed within 13 weeks of commencement of employment) states they will pay sick pay for X amount of weeks. Thats FACT...

My employers recently changed their sick pay policy. They used to pay upto 6 months full pay and six months half pay for the same illness. They sent a letter round stating that they were cutting the times in half and arranged a meeting with all employees where they explained that the cuts were due to the company losing money and it was a case of accept the change or face job losses or leave. So contracts can be changed.

Lady Star · 28-08-2009, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHsheff

My friend has a small business with a member of staff who has long periods of time (a fortnight, a month) signed off with 'joint pains' but at the same time is a member of a running club and goes for regular runs.

It's really affecting my friend's business and she can't afford to keep paying the man's wages as well as having to pay for someone else to do their work.

She's been advised that, as long as the chap is signed off by the GP there isn't anything she can do about it, apart from keep paying the wages.

I'm not sure (now I'm typing this) if there's a contract that states that sick pay will be paid but I doubt it; I suspect that the payments have been made in good faith. Presumably, the length of time that sick pay has to be made will depend on the contract; I'll speak to my friend about this.

However, the situation is becoming intolerable anyway. What is the procedure, does anyone know, about getting rid of the offender? Can you issue written warnings? Presumably this is a bit tricky - warning someone not to be sick seems a bit dodgy.

The alternative solution is to video the man running, then sack him, and be prepared to show the video to a tribunal if it comes to that...

Your thoughts, please?

I know someone who has been signed off for months, and now it appears she's having a load of work done to her house all day!!! Extention etc!!! Nowt to be done though - she has drs notes and that sadly is that... If they have been seen and signed off by a medical professional there is nowhere to go, and any needling could be seen as harrasment on his part and she your friend in tribunal - or would she rather do that and pay him off? Will it be less money in the long term? Might be worth consulting a lawyer?

SHsheff · 28-08-2009, 19:28

Turns out that my friend's only being paying SSP for a while now (I don't know the details).

The main bugbear is the lack of reliabilty, and the fact that this person has a key, though relatively junior, role.

If it was genuine illness my friend would continue to keep the position open but, for example, when the man's g/f came to stay for a couple of weeks, he immediately put in a sick note for two weeks (and was then spotted out running, grrr).

Yes, it's time for legal advice; I was rather hoping that the many experts on SF could add input (as you are doing)....

Lorri · 28-08-2009, 19:59

There are ways but it's a long process and you have to follow the right procedures. You need to have regular review meetings with the employee, and you can request a Dr's report (costs about £25).
If after meetings, reviews, attempts to solve any problems, and it is affecting your business because the employee is still off sick regularly, then you have the right to end their contract. Basically you have to prove you have made every attempt to support the employee.
Try http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg...sslink.gov.uk/ for advice, they are very supportive of small businesses.

stimpy · 28-08-2009, 20:01

give acas a ring.

they are very helpful people and will be able to inform your friend of the correct procedure

SHsheff · 28-08-2009, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by stimpy

give acas a ring.

they are very helpful people and will be able to inform your friend of the correct procedure

I've done that, thank you, and they are coming back to me on Tuesday (after the bank hol)

chimay · 28-08-2009, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorri

There are ways but it's a long process and you have to follow the right procedures. You need to have regular review meetings with the employee, and you can request a Dr's report (costs about £25).
If after meetings, reviews, attempts to solve any problems, and it is affecting your business because the employee is still off sick regularly, then you have the right to end their contract. Basically you have to prove you have made every attempt to support the employee.
Try http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg...sslink.gov.uk/ for advice, they are very supportive of small businesses.

Yep, as well as changing sick pay policy my employers have introduced minuted return to work meetings after staff have been off sick even for a couple of days. They put a positive slant on the meetings - what can we do to help? Apparently sickness has reduced since the introduction of these meetings.

rich5315 · 28-08-2009, 20:18

if sickpay is in your contract then a company must pay it, (mines 26 weeks) they actually pay me 45 hrs for being of sick more than working? but a company can sack you for being off sick even with doctors notes, specially with being off often cause they can prove that your not fullfilling your contract, the other way is to follow a company disciplinary procedure which would eventually get someone sack,

depoix · 28-08-2009, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIZRAT

The employer has NO obligation to pay sick pay to an employee UNLESS the contract of employment (signed within 13 weeks of commencement of employment) states they will pay sick pay for X amount of weeks. Thats FACT...

thats very true ,i did a course on this when working for c a b ,neither do they have to provide holiday pay

LibertyBell · 29-08-2009, 05:23

Whether the person is faking it or not, if their sick record is that bad, they can be sacked anyway as long as due process takes place. In fact it would be a lot safer route to assume they aren't faking it. Once you start covertly filming people you get into legal hot water very quickly should the video be used as evidence in a tribunal for example

Your friend should have a sickness policy or statement so all employees are clear about their responsibility to attend regularly.

Get them in, explain why it's problem for the company and see if anything can be done to improve attendance (reasonable adjustments for example), give a written warning. Watch attendance improve hopefully. If not, it's down the road and another person on incapacity benefit.

Also don't make assumptions that joint pain is fake (the GP obviously doesn't think so) . Arthritis is a debilitating condition and is extremely variable from one day to the next.

SHsheff · 29-08-2009, 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LibertyBell

Also don't make assumptions that joint pain is fake (the GP obviously doesn't think so) . Arthritis is a debilitating condition and is extremely variable from one day to the next.

Which is a fair comment - if it weren't for the running, the issue would be one of inconvenience to the employer rather than the feeling that she is being taken for a ride.

LibertyBell · 29-08-2009, 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHsheff

Which is a fair comment - if it weren't for the running, the issue would be one of inconvenience to the employer rather than the feeling that she is being taken for a ride.

OK, but imagine a lawyer in a tribunal for example showing that exercise is good for the joint pain.....it does happen.

Hope your friend gets it sorted.