[Lotti]

Well.. that's the headline. In fact they have said Crufts can only be televised if certain breeds are excluded from participating Of course Crufts couldn't agree to it so Crufts will not be aired (unless they come to some sort of agreement) on the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7779686.stm

I'll let you make of it what you will

[Squiggs]

Good, in my opinion.

I view dog shows like the beauty pageants - except the models in the pageants at least have the choice of entry.

I find it demeans dogs which don't reach a certain standard of breeding - apply that to the human race and you would be called a nazi. And emphasises financial value of an animal as a "commoddity"

[Strix]

Dogs who don't enjoy showing don't do well in the ring anyway - so there's no point in trying to force a dog to show

Tell Brude 'we're going to a dog show' and he's bounding about looking for his lead

Put him in the ring, and when he knows he's looking good, if you look really hard at the tip of his tail, it's wagging

There are good anecdotes and bad wrt dog showing, and at the moment I'm very interested in how hounds split far enough apart to not be the same in the field as they are in the ring any more, but I'm seriously hacked off with the RSPCA for their handling of this issue. They don't seem to know where they want to go with all of this. Driving the general public away from licenced and registered breeders is confusing. People are only going to go to unregulated backyard breeders or puppyfarmers, where they'll find all of the same breed defects and more besides

Why isn't the RSPCA showing the strength to assist the kennel club in stamping out bad breeding instead of tarring all KC breeders with the same brush?

[Lotti]

Well... in response, I show my dog (or did...)

For me, and the friends I have in the show ring, we do it because we, and the dogs enjoy it.
Takara stopped enjoying it, and guess what. We stopped going. Now she's into it again but my mobility isn't good enough to start again. However - I've seen how much good it does her to be in the same vicinity as other dogs whilst being asked to do certain tasks and being fed (she used to be food aggressive), so I'm in the process of getting her back into it allowing someone else to handle her for me.

Will she win? I don't care.

So please, don't think we all force our dogs into it. She only does it if she wants to do it. If we got to a show and she decided she wasn't up for it, of course I'd try and persuade her, build her confidence etc. but at the end of the day, regardless of whether we'd driven 20 minutes of 2 hours to get there, we'd go home.

I know a lot of 'show people' who are the same in their thinking, unfortunately it's only ever those who don't think that way that people hear about.

However, I agree with your first line...
BBC give it terrible coverage with most of the programme showing Ben Fogle and other such twits who are only there to show off their own dogs and demonstrate an extreme lack of knowledge.
Hopefully whoever takes it on instead of the BBC (because I'm sure someone will) will give it better coverage.

Finally, if you read the link, the BBC were quite happy to air the show if certain breeds were 'banned' from certain classes. It was the KC that refused this condition, perhaps it should be the BBC branded the nazis in this case?

[Strix]

I agree lotti - the coverage for a number of years has been rubbish - quite frankly

in the 1970's you could watch it all afternoon on BBC2 instead of the usual test card, seeing all of the dogs in the breed finals, which gave you a much better idea of what was going on, and allowing you to see which breeders you'd probably get in touch with for pups. Now the coverage of the group final has been hacked down to the last cut, so we don't even get to see the whole group

If you've seen one flyball round you've seen them all

How about Discover Dogs? Good Citizen? Agility?
Oh, sorry, Mary Ray needs to have how much air time?

The KC should have pulled out of the deal with the BBC years ago in my opinion

[Lotti]

To be fair, I don't begrudge Mary Ray the airtime she has. It's still a sport, using the dog's brain and building a partnership between dog and handler.

I agree wholeheartedly that the obedience and agility needs more coverage but the flyball, for those who follow it, deserves to be there - it's only like any other sport - I can't stand watching football for instance. I suppose it's more interesting if you know the flyball teams and are supporting one because obviously, it's so, so close.

However - everything could have it's bit of coverage if we didn't spend so much time up in Ben Fogle's bubble talking about utter rubbish!

[metaphoria]

Hmmm, well that's slightly changed my view of the Kennel Club. Interesting. Unfortunately I missed the televised investigation of over-bred dogs with health problems earlier this year. Good move from the BBC, in my opinion.

Crufts is a bit too cutsie, and competitive for my tastes anyway, I think dogs should be trained to live in harmony with you, not just preened for cameras!

[Strix]

Mary Ray is there for entertainment though - that's my point

although she does compete, there is no dancing competition at Crufts

that flaming band bugs hell out of me too - you can tell it frightens half the dogs there!
(as does the lighting in the final)

[Lotti]

Originally Posted by metaphoria

I think dogs should be trained to live in harmony with you, not just preened for cameras!

Oh ok...

So what about those of us who have done both?

Well ok... my breed doesn't take that much preening but just because we show, doesn't mean we don't live in harmony with our dogs.

It's the BBC's fault that this is what people think Crufts is!! Hopefully, whoever televises the show will change this opinion.

If you actually go to Crufts you see Good Citizen Award, agility, flyball, competitive obedience and HTM as well as conformation showing. Not to mention well socialised, happy, healthy dogs who behave impeccably in an environment most 'pet dogs' (and I use the term loosely bearing in mind most show dogs ARE pet dogs) would find too stressful to cope with.
These dogs cope with it because their handlers socialise them from an early age with this sort of setting, knowing that otherwise they'd have no chance in the show ring anyway. They are able to take it all in their stride. Lucky dogs.

[Lotti]

Originally Posted by Strix

Mary Ray is there for entertainment though - that's my point

although she does compete, there is no dancing competition at Crufts

that flaming band bugs hell out of me too - you can tell it frightens half the dogs there!
(as does the lighting in the final)

Yep, I don't like the lighting - it's way too warm in there. You'd think they'd tailor it for the dogs, being a dog show wouldn't you!

I know she's there for entertainment and there's no competition but there's an obvious increase in figures of people looking for classes to do tricks, fun training or HTM with their dogs following Crufts.
To me, that can't be a bad thing - it's clearly getting a message out there to people 'look at the things YOU can do with YOUR dog!'

[metaphoria]

Originally Posted by Lotti

Oh ok...

So what about those of us who have done both?

Well ok... my breed doesn't take that much preening but just because we show, doesn't mean we don't live in harmony with our dogs.

It's the BBC's fault that this is what people think Crufts is!! Hopefully, whoever televises the show will change this opinion.

If you actually go to Crufts you see Good Citizen Award, agility, flyball, competitive obedience and HTM as well as conformation showing. Not to mention well socialised, happy, healthy dogs who behave impeccably in an environment most 'pet dogs' (and I use the term loosely bearing in mind most show dogs ARE pet dogs) would find too stressful to cope with.
These dogs cope with it because their handlers socialise them from an early age with this sort of setting, knowing that otherwise they'd have no chance in the show ring anyway. They are able to take it all in their stride. Lucky dogs.

Both is good, and flyball looks great.

Although I have to say, a dog with a over-styled hairdo looks a bit scary to me.

[Lotti]

I agree metaphoria...

Being a bit of a poodle fan, I find it quite distressing how far away from the working cut the show cut is. (Bearing in mind I've always been under the impression a show was about seeing the dog's ability to carry out the task it was bred for)

Poodles are serious dogs - bred for serious things, and I do think they should have their serious working cut for shows... I'm not sure why they do have such a silly cut. I did wonder if it made it easier to see their conformation if parts were shaved but no other breed does it so I don't know why it is.

[metaphoria]

Originally Posted by Lotti

I agree metaphoria...

Being a bit of a poodle fan, I find it quite distressing how far away from the working cut the show cut is. (Bearing in mind I've always been under the impression a show was about seeing the dog's ability to carry out the task it was bred for)

Poodles are serious dogs - bred for serious things, and I do think they should have their serious working cut for shows... I'm not sure why they do have such a silly cut. I did wonder if it made it easier to see their conformation if parts were shaved but no other breed does it so I don't know why it is.

Well I agree with you too, as long as they are happy, heathy and well-socialised it doesn't really matter-and I'm not totally anti-crufts, as I like to watch parts of it...particularly the bits where you see the owner interacting with their dogs in activities...you can tell the dogs are enjoying themselves.

It's just that the over-stylising of dogs seems to go against what they are all about to me. They don't really care what we look like, so it seems a bit daft to me to make them look like fashion icons/accessories.

Like you say about poodles, showing them which doesn't represent what they were not bred for seems a bit odd. Although, that's just got me thinking...if all dogs should be shown for what they were bred for, then perhaps the problem lies in the reasons why they were bred. If it was just to look good, then surely that's not right, especially if continous over-breeding makes them unhealthy.

[Strix]

Originally Posted by Lotti

Yep, I don't like the lighting - it's way too warm in there. You'd think they'd tailor it for the dogs, being a dog show wouldn't you!

I know she's there for entertainment and there's no competition but there's an obvious increase in figures of people looking for classes to do tricks, fun training or HTM with their dogs following Crufts.
To me, that can't be a bad thing - it's clearly getting a message out there to people 'look at the things YOU can do with YOUR dog!'

yes, and, thanks to the nonsense that goes on in the bubble, lots of people are attracted by how cute pet dogs are bouncing all over the furniture and how unimportant it is to understand what makes a dog tick

Making Mary Rae the big star that she is does nothing for putting forward the idea of dogs being dogs. They're glamorised as toys and accessories when they're presented in this fashion

There are circuses that don't have animals anymore for a reason!

[Strix]

Originally Posted by Lotti

I agree metaphoria...

Being a bit of a poodle fan, I find it quite distressing how far away from the working cut the show cut is. (Bearing in mind I've always been under the impression a show was about seeing the dog's ability to carry out the task it was bred for)

Poodles are serious dogs - bred for serious things, and I do think they should have their serious working cut for shows... I'm not sure why they do have such a silly cut. I did wonder if it made it easier to see their conformation if parts were shaved but no other breed does it so I don't know why it is.

Poodles are the really obvious ones for an outsider to see the differences over

If anybody's interested, google 'albany bassets' and then 'crufts bassets'

Have a look on the KC website for qualifying criteria for beagles for Crufts - when was the last time a hunting hound stepped in the ring at Crufts - although there are criteria for them to be able to do so?

[Lotti]

Originally Posted by metaphoria

if all dogs should be shown for what they were bred for, then perhaps the problem lies in the reasons why they were bred. If it was just to look good, then surely that's not right, especially if continous over-breeding makes them unhealthy.

I think some of the toy companion breeds were bred a lot for what they look like (because of the sorts of people who would own them) but in general, many dogs (including the poodle) were bred for a serious reason.

The breed standard, as I understand it should describe a dog suitable for the purpose it was bred for - ie. the task it was needed to undertake.

There are very few working dalmatians anymore, but in general there is no huge difference the 'working strain' and 'show strain' of dalmatians - because, thankfully the breed standard works very much in their favour. The only thing that goes against them is the fact that patches are undesirable (patches are linked to lower risk of genetic deafness but if you breed from a patched dog, you'll quite possibly end up with very patchy dogs that don't look good).

However, like Strix says - many breeds have a big discrepancy between their working and show strains.

They both have their faults though, working dogs are less likely to have had the health tests that breed should have so that can result in higher possibilities of genetic problems than those of the same breed but 'show strain'. That said, the 'show strain' of some breeds would have a very tough time carrying out the task they're supposedly bred for due to how their conformation varies so much from their working 'cousins'. Only a good working dogs, with a strong conformation and physical ability to work will be bred from whereas a show dog is never likely to carry out that work so the demands for them before breeding aren't as great.

As far as Mary Ray goes, Strix I'm not sure I really understand your point... as someone who has done this training, it's very far removed from the circus. Provided these tricks are taught sensibly and dogs are not required to stand on their back legs too long for example, there's no damage caused to them and they are family pets getting huge amounts of stimulation and contact with their owner through positive, reward based training.
I can see no problem with that whatsoever. And honestly don't think I ever would.

Obviously if the training is done wrong, harsh methods are used (which is totally unnecessary for something which is purely for fun and of no real importance) or the dog is made to stand on it's back legs for too long etc. then there's a problem but if the dog is enjoying it there's a lot more to it than just circus tricks and it can and is very beneficial to the dogs.

To be honest, I can't see how it's any different really to competitive obedience. Dogs weren't made to sit perfectly straight, heel with their head to your leg etc. etc. but nobody criticises that!

[Strix]

I don't have an issue with dogs learning to do what Mary Ray teaches, but the fashion in which it is showcased at Crufts doesn't sit well with me. We don't get to see the background to the training properly, it's all for television (as much as our favourite dog 'trainer' is )

We used to get good commentary on what does or does not make a good example of the breed, and pointers on what breed defects to be wary of, but the BBC presentation of Crufts has long been a million miles away from anything informative or useful. It's all produced for 'show' and 'awww' factor - something Crufts is now copping the blame for when the KC has made great strides in opening up the big world of dogs and appealing to a wider audience, as well as promoting many important issues wrt dog ownership

[knoxyovs9]

Ive shown dogs for many years and its great aslong your dog enjoys it i show for my family and nearly every dog i have shown thrives of the atmosphere

[topb]

there is a danger of course that continual breeding from a line will result in weaker and weaker dogs anyway. Inter breeding is inevitable if reputable breeders only are allowed to breed. I don't condone back street breeders at all nor the people that seek them out but to limit a supplier spells danger for a breed in the long term regardless of whether or not they meet the KC standard. Dog showing is fine if we are showing the dog for what it is and not what we have fashioned over the many years we have controlled their destiny.
The idea that a pedigree exists anyway is ludicrous as all dogs consist of more than one breed/type in order to arrive at the finished article, none have become what they are through natural evolution, man's itervention began 20,000 years ago with the wolf and it has continued ever since.