The discussion of classical music has implicitly raised an interesting question: why are all of the great classical composers men? There are of course many, many fine players of classical music who are women. But female composers?
I can think of three of note - Hildegard of Bingen, Clara Schuman and Elisabeth Maconchy (I like all of these). There are of course others, but none who are generally regarded as being in the top flight. The nineteenth and twentieth centuries produced many fine women novelists, but virtually no women composers of note. Why? is it nature, nurture, lack of opportunity, prejudice? or what?
I suppose we could include Wendy Carlos too, formerly Walter Carlos the electro-acoustic composer. It depends, my dear Chaverly, upon how one defines 'great'. Some would regard Kate Bush as a composer, and a fairly sophisticated one at that. Her music draws upon a vast range of influences; the dynamics of 'progressive' rock, European 'new' music, folk, reggae, Classical, certain Eastern styles etc, which she blends together seamlessly. However, we are talking about 'intelligent', essentially popular music here. I do not think her music stands any chance of being 'remembered' in the way that Elgar's symphonies, and the Savoy operas of Gilbert and Sullivan will be. Over to you...
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As much as I admire Kate Bush (well, a little anyway) I hardly think her esteemed works fit well into the canons of classical music composition or into the classical repertoire- even if we take into account the dubious new art form known as 'crossover'. I must say, the sound of the Medieval Babes is an acquired taste and I regret to say I have not yet acquired it. I am not familiar with the oevre of Carlos, but if he/she has had a sex change, then he/she wouldn't be a good example to use.
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Is the answer there aren't any due to the role of women within society pre 1850 not allowing them the opportunity to attend the elite musical conservatories?
Or is that obvious.
I suppose the one plus for women is that the spice girls contained 5 women and not a single man.
Get in, Girl Power.
Thatcher was yours as well, so credit where it's due
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She wrote many hymns which were intended for children, and were actually perfectly suitable for adults, but they actually had lots of hidden meanings, which mentioned the toil of women and less liberated people in victorian times.
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Originally posted by muddycoffee Cecil Frances Alexander (1818-1895)
She wrote many hymns which were intended for children, and were actually perfectly suitable for adults, but they actually had lots of hidden meanings, which mentioned the toil of women and less liberated people in victorian times.
Hi Muddy,
She was undoubtedly a talented lyricist (hymn writer and poet), but that would not qualify her as a composer of note. She probably belongs to the category of great women poets of the 19th century.
I think you're confusing 'great' with 'well known' or 'well publicised'. Women were seen and not heard in ye olde days, innit.
I'm a great composer. Just this morning I composed a song called 'I can't log on to the Sheffield Forum, I think my world has caved in, was it all just a figment of my imagination', it was beautiful, really haunting and melodic.
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Apparently Mrs Schumman, er Schumann wrote all the best pieces by Mr S. Similarly, Gwen John was miles better at painting than Augustus (who was a tit). Winifred, er, Winnifred Nicholson was also miles better at painting than Ben Nicholson (who woz roobish). Then again, Mrs Hank Williams had a voice like fingernails being scratched down a blackboard, whereas Hank was a genius. But, generally, I suppose the point is....oh, bum, I've forgotten.....
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Originally posted by tslogf74 Francesca Caccini springs to mind. Not a household name like Beethoven but she did write 5 operas.
I think talented women tend to get overlooked throughout history.
Well, I've looked and looked (as I'm sure have many feminists, hoping to find some hidden or forgotten musical jewels emanating from the distaff side) and I've come to the conclusion that, if we are talking about works of superior quality rather than of quantity, they are few and far between - although I have not yet had a chance to hear a complete rendition of kathythebean's latest composition, so perhaps its wise for me to reserve my final judgement.
Incidentally, this discussion parallels a similar one sometimes raised in the world of chess. There are women grand masters and some very fine female chess players (e.g. the Polgar sisters) but there has never been a female world chess champion.
Kasparov famously or infamously referred to the Polgars as 'trained dogs' and is on record as saying that he doubted that a woman would ever become world champion.
Judit is not I believe in the current FIDE rankings, due to inactivity (she has a young baby), but is reckoned to be currently about the 8th or 9th best player in the world, which makes her the best ever female chess player of all time. She is now in her mid-20s, so there is still time for her to make it.
One of the reasons may well lie in a sociological direction, for example, the point made by Dylan [the forum poster, not the 'musical entertainer'] regarding the subordinate role of women in societies. Lest anyone think that Timo has become some sort of patronising, neutered 'male feminist', ever -eager to acknowledge his role as a 'patriarchal agent' in 'phallocentric' society, I have my own elegant and erudite paradigm too.
Perhaps causality, in this case, is due to a cluster of variables. The aforementioned sociological explanation re the 'gendered' nature of societies [let us not forget that , not so very long ago in historical terms, women undergraduates were unheard of in Britain] is one of the most cogent variables. However, drawing upon the work of the evolutionary psychologist, Richard Lynn, I suggest that the much higher levels of 'creative sociopathology' amongst males is the most important variable here. It also plays a part in why we have 'gendered' societies in the first instance.
With regard to chess and gender, males in general are supposed to have more highly developed visio-spatial awareness and also are more likely to exhibit single minded obsessive traits. Ally this to the aggressiveness which also tends to be more common in males and I think we may be getting somewhere (which is not to entirely discount the socio-environmental causal factors mentioned above). Kasparov, in his famous statements on female chess players, attributed the differences in performance levels to differences in psychology.
Lord C,
The variables might well be the following:- 'gendered' nature of society, higher levels of visio-spatial intelligence in males, higher levels of 'creative sociopathology' in males, and testosterone-based higher levels of aggression/urges to primacy in males. Thus the Timo/Chaverly thesis!
Mind you, Lord Snooty [he's not a 'real' Lord, unlike you and I...] makes a good point re the rumours that women secretly wrote work attributed to their husbands, i.e, Clara Schumann. On first hearing these rumours, I was tempted to link them with the sublimely fatuous claims that 'Beethoven was black', uttered by certain radical Afro-American slavery-compensation merchants. However, some evidence is coming to light on this intriguing matter.
According to Earnest Bickerdyke [ descendant of the celebrated Wincobank poet, Albert Bickerdyke, who wrote the moving ode to 'unashamed outdoor love' in Woolley Woods- 'Pull me vest darn when tha's finished, Edie'] of The Shiregreen Advertiser, there are several cases of 'great' works secretly written by female relations of the credited composers. For example, Wagner's Der Fliegende Hollander is rumoured to have been written by his 'Auntie' Brigitte, in between her ironing and door step scrubbing at Bochum. Mozart's String Quartet K464, is almost certainly written by, in Sheffield parlance, his 'Nannan'. Stockhausen's 'Hymnen', a modern 'classical' meisterwerk, is claimed by Mrs Stella Mac Donough of Giro Walk, Bootle.
Spot on Timo. perhaps we could call it 'the Timo/Chaverly theory of gender differences in creative accomplishments'.
As for the 'Beethoven was black' idea, I think we can agree its complete nonesense. He was of German/Flemish origin - note his usage of the 'Van' rather than 'Von'. Apparently he was proud off his part-Flemish ancestry, altohugh he was of course German.
The story probably originated as a result of Beethoven's brief association with George Bridgetower, a half African, half German violinist of note. Beethoven at first dedicated what is now known as the Kreutzer sonata to Bridgetower, but fell out with him before it was printed (so it was dedicated to Kreutzer instead, who apparently didn't actually like it). Bridgetower was also a composer, altohugh I've never heard any of his works, or indeed heard of any of them being performed.
I am glad that you have mentioned Bickerdyke, the Wordsworth of Wincobank in this context. I think that there are good grounds for thinking that many current rugby songs which are attributed to that most prolific of composers, Anon, can actually be traced back to the immortal pen of Bickerdyke. Further research is required to ascertain whether the spring from this particular creative well emanated from the distaff side.
