[BasilRathbon]

I know there's a big thread about the bridge at Sheffield station being closed off to non-rail users, but I thought it might be interesting to have a more general debate about ticket barriers and how they make the rail travel experience that bit more annoying.

As those who commute to Leeds will know, automated ticket barriers have recently been installed at Leeds station, and I believe they are also being introduced across other stations on the network such as Blackpool and Manchester Airport. They have of course been in use across London Transport for many years, but am I the only one who sees them as a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut?

For those who don't know, the principle is that to get on or off the platforms you have to insert your ticket into a machine. If the machine thinks the ticket is valid, it comes out of a slot at the other side and the gate opens for a few seconds so you can get in or out.
However, it's not always that simple. Machines are unreliable; it's by no means unusual for the machine to reject a valid ticket or, worse still, refuse to give it you back. This is bad enough with a day ticket, but many commuters have annual season tickets worth over a thousand pounds - you don't really want to risk losing that by sticking it in a machine that may not give it you back.

You might think - so what, just contact a member of staff and they'll open up the machine and give it you back. Well, sod's law is that there's never a member of staff when you want one - whilst there should be at least one staff member in attendance, he may have as many as 16 gates to manage (8 in 8 out) and have several irate passengers to deal with. Thus you have the likely scenario of arriving at the station in good time for your train but missing it because your perfectly valid ticket has been rejected by a machine and there’s no-one available to let you through. As some tickets are only valid on the train you’ve reserved on, this could be a very expensive error.

Also, the rail companies claim that ticket barriers will cut down on congestion, but I don’t see it myself. During the rush hour, the bigger stations have to cope with thousands of passengers; if each one has to stop, fish out a ticket, stick it in a slot, wait for it to be accepted, pick it out the other side and go through a gate, this will surely create massive queues even if the machines are working correctly.

The only benefit is that the gates will cut down on fare dodging, but if that’s the main point, surely it would be a lot cheaper and more customer friendly to have a ticket barrier manned by humans rather than machines?

[Ghozer]

It works well in Scotland, I think its only a good thing.

[bigwind]

Originally Posted by Ghozer

It works well in Scotland, I think its only a good thing.

as a regular train user i have to agree, i'll gladly suffer a little more inconveinience of the gates if it cuts down on the number of fare dodgers .

[Ouija]

Originally Posted by BasilRathbon

The only benefit is that the gates will cut down on fare dodging, but if that’s the main point, surely it would be a lot cheaper and more customer friendly to have a ticket barrier manned by humans rather than machines?

I can see some sense in it, although I thought that that was what the conducters(is that what they're called on trains?) were for? And also, when I've been to Leeds you can buy a platform pass to allow you on to help carry luggage for friends/wave them off etc, (not sure if they've stopped that now) so in theory you could still fare dodge (if they're still doing them anyway).

Surely you only need one or the other? A barrier or a conductor? And what about people who get on at small stations where they buy their tickets on the train? If they can't purchase one on the train, and are greeted by a barrier but no human they can't buy one at their destination either.

[scoop]

hahaha...This reminds me of my recent trip to London with scoop jr. He's not big enough to operate the ticket barrier so I got into the habbit of ushering him through in front of me.
At one station I wasn't quite quick enough, scoop jr got through and just as I was half way through the barrier shut fast on my back pack and I was stuck! The attendant was stood gabbing to his mate at the other end and didn't notice that I was trapped, despite a red flashing light and a beeping noise going off and me bellowing "EXCUSE MEEEE!" several times. At this point scoop jr's bottom lip is starting to wobble at the thought of being brought up motherless, due to me having to remain for the rest of my days in a station barrier, Just then a fellow commuter came up behind me and gave me a massive shove (ooer missus) and I was released.

Anyhow, the moral of the story is, no I don't think automatic ticket barriers are a good idea, they do nothing but hamper the already over long public transport journey we have to endure. The rail companies should do their jobs properly bt inspecting tickets on board the train, which they would be able to do easily if they stopped overcrowding.

[BasilRathbon]

Originally Posted by Ghozer

It works well in Scotland, I think its only a good thing.

Wasn't my experience when Lady R and I attended a weeding in West Kilbride last year. At both Edinburgh and Glasgow, our valid tickets wouldn't work the barriers, so we had to join a queue of other people whose tickets didn't work the barriers and very bnearly missed our connections.

Furthermore, people whose tickets don't work the barriers tend to just stand there and look confused, holding up the queue of increasingly irate people behind them.

[HotPhil]

I think Basil's gone a bit overboard on the disadvantages and negative impacts. Queues would be longer if everyone had to wait for Doris to fish her ticket out and then get it inspected by a human. How would it be cheaper to have tickets inspected by a human?Humans cost more than barriers. Ticket prices would rise. Barriers can accurately process far more tickets per hour than a human could. I'd also dispute the "not unusual" occurrence of a ticket failing in the mechanism (unless it's been creased/torn/not cared for). The number of times someone would miss their train because they didn't allow for any delay whatsoever and there was no human available to let them through a barrier because their ticket couldn't be read would be very small indeed.

[neeeeeeeeeek]

If trains were not so insanely expensive then may be less people would feel inclined to avoid buying tickets! Paying £50 to be herded into a carriage in conditions that we can't transport animals in, let alone actually get a seat.
Next someone will say that it's the fault of the fair dodgers that the conditions and service is so bad!

[scoop]

Originally Posted by neeeeeeeeeek

If trains were not so insanely expensive then may be less people would feel inclined to avoid buying tickets! Paying £50 to be herded into a carriage in conditions that we can't transport animals in, let alone actually get a seat.
Next someone will say that it's the fault of the fair dodgers that the conditions and service is so bad!

Exactly, and as I said before, if the trains weren't so overcrowded the train companies would be able to check tickets adequately on board the train.

[HotPhil]

and if people had to have a ticket to get onto/out of the station, they'd be less need to check them on the train. whichever way you look at it, whilst there are people who won't pay their way, barriers are the most cost-effective way of reducning the theft

[BasilRathbon]

Originally Posted by hotphil

and if people had to have a ticket to get onto/out of the station, they'd be less need to check them on the train. whichever way you look at it, whilst there are people who won't pay their way, barriers are the most cost-effective way of reducning the theft

Only if there's a barrier at every station. Fare dodgers would simply get off or on at a barrierless station such as Meadowhall.

[swordfish1]

Originally Posted by BasilRathbon

Only if there's a barrier at every station. Fare dodgers would simply get off or on at a barrierless station such as Meadowhall.

You've started a serious thread. I do take it this is one of the more usual tongue in cheek posts?


Oh, and as a PS, automated barriers are far quicker than manned barriers. If you've been at Doncaster or Manchester Airport when the manned barriers are on, you'll see the backlog of queues.

[Heyesey]

Originally Posted by swordfish1

You've started a serious thread. I do take it this is one of the more usual tongue in cheek posts?

No, it's what ticket dodgers actually do. They used to do exactly this in Luton - by getting the train at Leagrave station instead, which was barrierless.

[swordfish1]

Originally Posted by Heyesey

No, it's what ticket dodgers actually do. They used to do exactly this in Luton - by getting the train at Leagrave station instead, which was barrierless.

Wouldn't you have to get off at a barrierless station too?

[HotPhil]

Originally Posted by BasilRathbon

Only if there's a barrier at every station. Fare dodgers would simply get off or on at a barrierless station such as Meadowhall.

indeed. but that inconveniences the thieves to the point where some might buy tickets rather than have the hassle of going somewhere they don't want to be. and if all stations have barriers, the effect is increased. someone who wants to evade a fare will always manage it, making being honest the easier option reduces the attractiveness.

[Heyesey]

Originally Posted by swordfish1

Wouldn't you have to get off at a barrierless station too?

With a single ticket from West Hampstead to St. Pancras Thameslink, that you bought the day before thereby saving a tenner...

[HarmOKnee]

Isn't there some sort of problem with tram users not being able to get on the tram at Midland Station because of barriers and the fact that their tram tickets won't let them through?

[swordfish1]

Originally Posted by HarmOKnee

Isn't there some sort of problem with tram users not being able to get on the tram at Midland Station because of barriers and the fact that their tram tickets won't let them through?

......No.......

[Heyesey]

Originally Posted by HarmOKnee

Isn't there some sort of problem with tram users not being able to get on the tram at Midland Station because of barriers and the fact that their tram tickets won't let them through?

Not yet, at least. It's one of the many strands in the raging argument over ticket barriers (potentially) being installed on that bridge. Lots of people use it as a thoroughfare.

The more general question of whether ticket barriers are a good or bad thing, doesn't rely on that argument of course. Ignoring costs and practicality, you could simply build another bridge that doesn't connect to the station.

[HotPhil]

And the concessions EMT have offered are detailed on the other thread - no cause to get up in arms whatsoever.