Originally posted by max Is this growing trend in targetting women and children perhaps a reflection of the profile of the new breed of terrorists? In one of the earlier posts mention was made of a women blowing herself up, we also have reports in the middle east of children carrying bombs and not being afraid to use them. Many of the armies in Central Africa are made up of children as young as 8 or 9.
I expect the rationale behind targetting women and children is that if the terorists themselves recruit from these ranks are they not then valid targets?
Call them what you will, revolutionaries, terrorists or freedom-fighters at the end of the day these deluded people are just pawns in a game to determine who controls the wealth of the region.
I totally get what you are saying and condemn how they operate as much as I can but if I had to try and explain why they operate in this way I would say that in their minds they are fighting for a proper cause usually fuelled by religious beliefs. Not having the financial clout to purchase modern weapons and tanks they have to use other ways of attack and this is it. It was the same with 9/11. The planes were their missiles.
Originally posted by slimsid2000 Ok, I'll get 'serious'. [...] this is another example of militant Islam killing innocent people. These people are fanatics and seem to think that just because they hold particular religious beliefs it entitles them to kill whoever they please.
Sorry, but if you're going to get serious, then you might perhaps first learn slightly more about the background of this latest attack. Your comments (quoted above) show very little understanding of whose these terrorists were and their reasons for attacking the school.
These terrorists, while indeed Muslims, were not targeting the Russians because they have different religious beliefs, in fact that whole area (around the school) is heavily populated with some of Russia's 19 million Muslims (they are the 2nd largest religious group in the country). This act of terrorism was to cause outrage and focus international attention on their fight for independence of Chechnya.
Hope that clears up your confusion.
On to your other point...
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Originally posted by slimsid2000 Firstly I find it a little unsettling when people either say or imply that an event which harms children is somehow more serious than if only adults were involved.
Perhaps it's because children, by their nature, are naive and their brains are far more impressionable than adults. Therefore they are likely to be more psychologically damaged than an adult might be. Or perhaps it's because while the death of an adult is very sad, at least they have lived (and in theory enjoyed) some of what life has to offer. A 45 year old man as no doubt had some good times in his life. A 5 year old child is just starting their life and it's snatched away. Perhaps it's because when children are involved it's horrendous for the parents who have watched them grow up and are now completely helpless to protect them. Perhaps this poor 5 year old girl lying dead was their only ever chance to have a child, perhaps it's because children are weaker and more prone to die from smoke inhalation during a raid, perhaps it's because children don't understand what's going on and therefore may jeopardise their lives, perhaps ... you want more?!
Last edited by Geoff; 03-09-2004 at 16:33.
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The latest does seem to be that it started when some children escaped and the terrorists shot them in the back. The Special Forces had to go in earlier than they intended and before they were fully prepared.
I can't see what the Russians could have done differently under the circumstances. They were in a terrible position. It could only ever end up in lots of deaths.
The whole thing has really upset me today.
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1 - At 0850GMT a vehicle from the Emergencies Ministry is sent in to retrieve the bodies of those killed at the start of the siege
2 - A small number of the children being held hostage escape from the building. The attackers start firing at the children to try to block their escape. In response the Russian troops surrounding the school fire at the attackers
3 - A series of explosions rock the school gymnasium, bringing the roof of the building down
Would appear to me that the gunfire lead to the women blowing themselves up. This was no doubt the cause of many of the 100+ reported deaths. It was a lose-lose situation from the start - they were never going to walk out peacefully...
Having said that, I still think the Russians handled the whole thing very badly, allowing all the parents to be within 100 metres of the killing and explosions and then allowing them to wonder around while the attack was still happening!
Originally posted by Geoff Sorry, but if you're going to get serious, then you might perhaps first learn slightly more about the background of this latest attack. Your comments (quoted above) show very little understanding of whose these terrorists were and their reasons for attacking the school.
These terrorists, while indeed Muslims, were not targeting the Russians because they have different religious beliefs, in fact that whole area (around the school) is heavily populated with some of Russia's 19 million Muslims (they are the 2nd largest religious group in the country). This act of terrorism was to cause outrage and focus international attention on their fight for independence of Chechnya.
Hope that clears up your confusion.
On to your other point...
Perhaps it's because children, by their nature, are naive and their brains are far more impressionable than adults. Therefore they are likely to be more psychologically damaged than an adult might be. Or perhaps it's because while the death of an adult is very sad, at least they have lived (and in theory enjoyed) some of what life has to offer. A 45 year old man as no doubt had some good times in his life. A 5 year old child is just starting their life and it's snatched away. Perhaps it's because when children are involved it's horrendous for the parents who have watched them grow up and are now completely helpless to protect them. Perhaps this poor 5 year old girl lying dead was their only ever chance to have a child, perhaps it's because children are weaker and more prone to die from smoke inhalation during a raid, perhaps it's because children don't understand what's going on and therefore may jeopardise their lives, perhaps ... you want more?!
With respect I disagree. As an adult I do not like the implication that my own life is less important than that of a child.
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It's not that an adults life is worth less than a childs, it is that children are innocents with no comprehension of what is going on - while an adult may be able to understand a situation a child will only feel complete and utter terror.
Can you see the difference?
Originally posted by slimsid2000 With respect I disagree. As an adult I do not like the implication that my own life is less important than that of a child.
If you really meant "with respect" you would grace me by quoting a few of my points and giving me something slightly more substantial to back up your thoughts. Personally, if I had to choose between the life of myself or my child, I would give my life. A lot of parents would have the same attitude I think. Therefore when you hear about 100s of children being shot in cold blood - most normal people consider it horrific beyond imagination for all the reasons I mentioned above (i.e. children a naive, more impressionable, weaker, etc.) which you seemed to have ignored...
Originally posted by max
Call them what you will, revolutionaries, terrorists or freedom-fighters at the end of the day these deluded people are just pawns in a game to determine who controls the wealth of the region.
My name for them?.......MURDERING SCUM!
Anyone who targets kids as a political lever and then fires on them when things go wrong is little more than a coward.
And yes slimsid, a child's life IS more precious than an adult's. A child is innocent of political matters, is innocent of criminal actions and has no control over the situation in the country. They are completely at the mercy of us adults. WE are the ones who get states/religions fighting against each other, so it's only right that WE should be the ones to suffer when the brown stuff hits the fan. Anyone who intentially targets kids is below contempt IMO!!
I just saw the feed on ITV news, and then switched to their digital channel. It's absolutely heart wrenching - my sister started crying earlier.
The ITV cameraman claimed to have seen roughly 100 dead bodies (he didn't know whether they were children or not) in the gym after the collapse.
I really don't know a lot about the history of the Russia - Chechnya thing. I know the basics, but it seems to me that they should just be given their own territory to prevent further events like this. Is it just Putin's pride at stake? i'd be really glad if someone could fill me in.
Originally posted by noseyrosie The ITV cameraman claimed to have seen roughly 100 dead bodies (he didn't know whether they were children or not) in the gym after the collapse.
The last count I heard is over 150
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I really don't know a lot about the history of the Russia - Chechnya thing. I know the basics
but it seems to me that they should just be given their own territory to prevent further events like this. Is it just Putin's pride at stake? i'd be really glad if someone could fill me in.
Part of it is almost certainly Putin's pride ( he has set himself up as the tough man of Russia who will keep the population safe - hmmm seems to be alot of that going around) but whatever the ins and outs of the situation giving them teritory of their own is problematic in itself - its basically sends out the message that terrorism works which is something you REALLY don't want to do...
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Rosie: you' can't just give into terrorists' requests. That is just going to create more and more trouble in the long-run.
When you get a tense situation like this, it is almost inevitable that people are going to die. When you have two sides pointing guns at each other, someone's nerve is going to crack eventually.
The terrorists have little or no regard for life and therefore much less to lose than the Russian authorities.
It is such a difficult predicament to be in, it really is.
As for Putin, he has an extemely difficult domestic task to perform in a country so large and diverse as Russia. Internationally, after Yeltsin's last few pathetic, drunken statements - some of which he only just stopped short of declaring war on The West - it is comforting to know that they have a more stable leadership and I applaud his diplomacy in international politics.
He has brought stability back into line a little.
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It brings to mind the crisis in Kosovo, a group of people without their own country using violence, etc etc. Or Palestine. Oh dear. The world has seriously gone to pot.
I think there's oil in Chechnya which is why Russia wants to reatin the terrrority and also, imo, why someone is bankrolling the terrorists in order to gain control of the oilfields for themselves.
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Originally posted by Mo Yet another 'boundary' crossed.
I would say to Phan that he should perhaps include a smattering of condemnation to his sympathy and empathy.
So are you going to, or what?
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forgive me, hit the send button before thinking.
The reason I said iota, is because I really can only empathise to a infitesimal degree what it must be like for anyone involved, particularly the children and the parents. I have a child, but I cannot put myself in their shoes and not stray into the realms of total fantasy on my part.
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Originally posted by noseyrosie but it seems to me that they should just be given their own territory to prevent further events like this. Is it just Putin's pride at stake? i'd be really glad if someone could fill me in.
Giving into demands is likely to have the complete opposite effect of preventing further events like this. If terrorists start to believe acts like this enable them to get their own way, they'll only be encouraged.
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Terrorists from chechenya aren't a new phenomenon. The Chechens been resisting russia since tsarist times, and they finally succeeded in seceding in 94. Russia then went in - guns literally blazing.
Anyone genuinely interested in the subject of the story of Chechenya and the chechen/russian conflict that has been burining since the 20s, not to mention a dispassionate eye witness account from a journalist who spent quite some time in the caucasus, Chechnya Diary: A War Correspondent's Story of Surviving the War in Chechnya by Thomas Goltz is a good place to start.
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Man the Lifeboats ! Tell the band to play on! Women and Children First!
I think everyone on this foum can answer the above question on wether or not this thread is worthy of serious comment, the answer has to be YES.
I may be accused of looking at this through monochromatic glasses and if so I will gladly raise my hand to the charge.
Once you embark on an overt armed mission targetting women and children, you have the lost the right to be taken alive!
In an ideal scenario, the kidnappers would have been eliminated, the hostages freed and one or two of the kidnappers would have been acquired for intelligence.
However, Nirvana doesn't exist in Russia and If I'm totally honest I would dread to think what would have happened if this scenario was played out in this country.
And don't think for one moment that this couldn't happen here, none of us knbow how many of our so called fellow citizens have gone through mujahaddin traing camps over the past couple of decades or so.
