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10-08-2013, 14:15   #41
AdamSmith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewC View Post
I'm sorry, but that's really not a constructive attitude towards the use of buildings. What you're saying is basically whoever can splash the money to buy up land should then be able to do anything they want with it. Well obviously in the real world - not the world on Sheffield Forum - that just isn't practical.

The reason we have Development Control is because whilst market forces are fairly decent indicators of who wants what and where, it doesn't take in to account a lot of non-financial factors that have to be taken in to account. For example, a developer building a block of flats wouldn't care too much about what they look like from the outside so would probably leave it as bare concrete - but we shouldn't all have to live looking at that when we walk down the street, so that's where DC have to step in and enforce planning policies etc.

In this situation, I would argue the control here should have been on 'should this building be maintained for a use 'more appropriate' for it's stature as a building'. Since it's use as a bank is long consigned to history, I can otherwise see it as a high-end bar or a very high-end retailer. Instead, we have a Tesco.

Please don't think I'd rather this unit was empty or that I think it won't be successful - I'll be using it myself no doubt!! It's just this grand building is pretty much lost forever to this use class (the way planning works, it's unlikely to go back to being something else) so it's just a Tesco could have lived in a grottier building nearby quite successfully, whereas the uses I've mentioned above wouldn't.



Just to pick up on you 'why didn't you do it, then' argument;

I earn less than £20k p.a. so even if I managed to pick the unit up for £1 I'd still be pretty much bankrupted by submitting a planning application and having plans drawn up for whatever I wanted to do (£2,000 for an planning app fees I think?), let alone actually do any of it!!

So don't be silly. As for why another developer with money hasn't done what I think this unit should be used for, well, maybe there was - but this is Tesco we're talking about here. They want it, they got it.

So please try and give this whole thing a bit more thought clownshoes! Good to see it used, but the lost potential is saddening.
Excellent post pretty much what I
Meant
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10-08-2013, 14:25   #42
dvp82
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If anyone's interested here's a link.

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/...kets-1-5935084
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10-08-2013, 14:40   #43
AndrewC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtc View Post
...Sheffield City Council allow a small Tesco to open in the city centre...

Methinks the council can't win with some moaners.
Just in case you're including me with that argument, I'd like to reiterate that isn't just as simple as, 'if the council planning department turn down an application, they must be anti-investment'. That is such a black and white way to see things. The council have more than just, 'will it bring money in to the city' to consider.

Again, I'm not furious about this - I'll be using this Tesco myself no doubt! But in terms of the ins and outs of development control, it just seems a shame that a potentially attractive restaurant/bar/high-end retailer won't be using this ornate unit. It's better than it being left to rot so it's more annoying because its just a testament to the way the world is at the moment.

---------- Post added 10-08-2013 at 15:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvp82 View Post
If anyone's interested here's a link.

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/...kets-1-5935084
That picture reminded me of another point; isn't just a very strange building for something like a Tesco...
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10-08-2013, 19:37   #44
smiggs
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From the link it sounds like they want a restaurant and a tesco express. Presumably the restaurant would take the 'interesting' features leaving tesco with the wide open space. A high end business is going to be tough sell for that particular building with all the public transport stops outside pretty perfect place for a shop though. Tesco are going to make a killing.
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10-08-2013, 19:42   #45
MummyMarshal
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I think it will provide more jobs, anything that does that can't be bad right now.
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11-08-2013, 09:10   #46
dutch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MummyMarshal View Post
I think it will provide more jobs, anything that does that can't be bad right now.
Working for Tesco is same thing as slavery. People get paid barely enough to survive and they have barely time left for themselves and family.
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11-08-2013, 10:09   #47
Douglas J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MummyMarshal View Post
I think it will provide more jobs, anything that does that can't be bad right now.
Well probably not - it will mean more jobs in this particular building but fewer jobs elsewhere as other businesses (there are a few small food shops in town) lose trade or close.
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11-08-2013, 13:25   #48
Clown Shoes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewC View Post
I'm sorry, but that's really not a constructive attitude towards the use of buildings. What you're saying is basically whoever can splash the money to buy up land should then be able to do anything they want with it. Well obviously in the real world - not the world on Sheffield Forum - that just isn't practical.

The reason we have Development Control is because whilst market forces are fairly decent indicators of who wants what and where, it doesn't take in to account a lot of non-financial factors that have to be taken in to account. For example, a developer building a block of flats wouldn't care too much about what they look like from the outside so would probably leave it as bare concrete - but we shouldn't all have to live looking at that when we walk down the street, so that's where DC have to step in and enforce planning policies etc.

In this situation, I would argue the control here should have been on 'should this building be maintained for a use 'more appropriate' for it's stature as a building'. Since it's use as a bank is long consigned to history, I can otherwise see it as a high-end bar or a very high-end retailer. Instead, we have a Tesco.

Please don't think I'd rather this unit was empty or that I think it won't be successful - I'll be using it myself no doubt!! It's just this grand building is pretty much lost forever to this use class (the way planning works, it's unlikely to go back to being something else) so it's just a Tesco could have lived in a grottier building nearby quite successfully, whereas the uses I've mentioned above wouldn't.



Just to pick up on you 'why didn't you do it, then' argument;

I earn less than £20k p.a. so even if I managed to pick the unit up for £1 I'd still be pretty much bankrupted by submitting a planning application and having plans drawn up for whatever I wanted to do (£2,000 for an planning app fees I think?), let alone actually do any of it!!

So don't be silly. As for why another developer with money hasn't done what I think this unit should be used for, well, maybe there was - but this is Tesco we're talking about here. They want it, they got it.

So please try and give this whole thing a bit more thought clownshoes! Good to see it used, but the lost potential is saddening.
I dont know why its sad. As long as they dont paint the building fluorescent green then whats the problem.

People protest at Weatherspoons pubs going into old historic buildings but i think they have done more for renovation in this country than any other company in history.

My point is that its easy for you to come on the forum and complain that a unit thats been empty for over 5 years is not being used the way you feel it should be used for and that a supermarket who alot of people will appreciate is not good enough.

If you had put in a bid, over or equal to the winning bid that Tesco put in at auction then you would have a genuine issue. But you havent.

If you want to save historic buildings from being used for business that you deem suitable then get off your backside & do something about it.

Get a consortium together and buy the old post office building or the old court house before someone turns it into a supermarket or whatever other business you feel doesnt suit the city aesthetically in your opinion.

I would rather have a business in Sheffield that is generating jobs & revenue than an empty building that gets so dilapidated that it need to be torn down anyway. Jessops being a good example.

Last edited by Clown Shoes; 11-08-2013 at 14:33.
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11-08-2013, 15:54   #49
AndrewC
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Quote:
I would rather have a business in Sheffield that is generating jobs & revenue than an empty building that gets so dilapidated that it need to be torn down anyway. Jessops being a good example.
So would I, which goes to show you are completely missing my point. The rest of your post is very presumptuous about what I do or don't do outside of this forum so I'm not responding to that, save to reiterate that the point is I and many other people don't have the resources to bid higher than Tesco. Posting on a forum does not mean someone must be lazy or only brave when hidden behind their keyboard.

Once again, for the I-don't-what time this is: I'd rather have a Tesco than a empty building. But I'd rather this building were filled with a restaurant or bar which made use of the features than a Tesco which almost certainly won't.

That's my two cents hopefully clarified. Enjoy.
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11-08-2013, 17:12   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WallBuilder View Post
Wasn't Hooters turned down because so many people objected,
No Hooters was turned down as we already have enough tits in Sheffield......unfortunatly they are on the council
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11-08-2013, 17:32   #51
mafya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daven View Post
There are more and more people LIVING in the city centre - they need supermarkets. SCC is giving Sheffield people what Sheffield people want - way to go SCC.
Some of whom object to late night bars/ clubs etc..
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11-08-2013, 18:12   #52
Clown Shoes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewC View Post
So would I, which goes to show you are completely missing my point. The rest of your post is very presumptuous about what I do or don't do outside of this forum so I'm not responding to that, save to reiterate that the point is I and many other people don't have the resources to bid higher than Tesco. Posting on a forum does not mean someone must be lazy or only brave when hidden behind their keyboard.

Once again, for the I-don't-what time this is: I'd rather have a Tesco than a empty building. But I'd rather this building were filled with a restaurant or bar which made use of the features than a Tesco which almost certainly won't.

That's my two cents hopefully clarified. Enjoy.
Got ya!
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12-08-2013, 16:52   #53
AdamSmith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Shoes View Post
I dont know why its sad. As long as they dont paint the building fluorescent green then whats the problem.

People protest at Weatherspoons pubs going into old historic buildings but i think they have done more for renovation in this country than any other company in history.

My point is that its easy for you to come on the forum and complain that a unit thats been empty for over 5 years is not being used the way you feel it should be used for and that a supermarket who alot of people will appreciate is not good enough.

If you had put in a bid, over or equal to the winning bid that Tesco put in at auction then you would have a genuine issue. But you havent.

If you want to save historic buildings from being used for business that you deem suitable then get off your backside & do something about it.

Get a consortium together and buy the old post office building or the old court house before someone turns it into a supermarket or whatever other business you feel doesnt suit the city aesthetically in your opinion.

I would rather have a business in Sheffield that is generating jobs & revenue than an empty building that gets so dilapidated that it need to be torn down anyway. Jessops being a good example.
Having just been past this building again today i still cant understand how anyone in their right minds grants planning for a supermarket in this building absolutely mad and if you agree just have a walk down there and tell me why ? the access for a start is lousy at best for deliveries access for disabled is not good and anyway the building itself is far to good for a supermarket, i actually think someone in the planning dept must be on a serious backhander for this to have gone through
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12-08-2013, 18:03   #54
ECCOnoob
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Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
Having just been past this building again today i still cant understand how anyone in their right minds grants planning for a supermarket in this building absolutely mad and if you agree just have a walk down there and tell me why ? the access for a start is lousy at best for deliveries access for disabled is not good and anyway the building itself is far to good for a supermarket, i actually think someone in the planning dept must be on a serious backhander for this to have gone through
Oh please lets get real here. Its an old bank not a bloody chapel or St Pauls Cathedral.

Its an empty decaying unit with no investors. Very soon it would become an eyesore on the street. Now someone has bought it and they will be making the unit active again.

Its perfectly possible for modern retailing to move into a shell of an old building without too much adjustment to the preserved exterior.... just like this one.
http://www.rgcarter-construction.co....express-store/

or this store http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2693/4...eac834e5_z.jpg

Pub chains particuarly buy up dozens of abandoned, decaying building "treasures" that nobody gave a toss about until the announcement something dares to move in different to the original owners.

Pub chains seem to have no problem converting these "treasures" into cavenous noisy drinking holes without damaging the pretty looking exteriors.

I really dont understand what people's issue is here.

Last edited by ECCOnoob; 12-08-2013 at 18:09.
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12-08-2013, 18:32   #55
AdamSmith
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Originally Posted by ECCOnoob View Post
Oh please lets get real here. Its an old bank not a bloody chapel or St Pauls Cathedral.

Its an empty decaying unit with no investors. Very soon it would become an eyesore on the street. Now someone has bought it and they will be making the unit active again.

Its perfectly possible for modern retailing to move into a shell of an old building without too much adjustment to the preserved exterior.... just like this one.
http://www.rgcarter-construction.co....express-store/

or this store http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2693/4...eac834e5_z.jpg

Pub chains particuarly buy up dozens of abandoned, decaying building "treasures" that nobody gave a toss about until the announcement something dares to move in different to the original owners.

Pub chains seem to have no problem converting these "treasures" into cavenous noisy drinking holes without damaging the pretty looking exteriors.

I really dont understand what people's issue is here.
no you get real i think anyone with half a brain cell can see its not a suitable building for a supermarket for a start it will attract all the street drinkers from the cathedral project, there will be beggers and big issue sellers outside along with buskers and the like, another eyesore !! oh and by the way they have not bought the building its on a lease, like i said earlier in the thread a shame that its not a bar or restaurant....but then again with sheffields mentality what else could be expected soon all the centre will have is charity shops supermarkets mini marts booze stores and card shops...........no wonder hammersons dragged their heels developing sevenstone
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12-08-2013, 19:18   #56
ECCOnoob
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Ok lets just go through some of the things that fell out of your mouth here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
no you get real i think anyone with half a brain cell can see its not a suitable building for a supermarket
Why not? I have given you two perfectly good examples of how retailers can move into an existing premises and covert them with out causing chaos to a listed or preserved exterior.

Here are a few more for you since you cannot seem to understand this concept.

http://www.beales.co.uk/saffronwalden
http://nicksayswhat.files.wordpress....-wimbledon.jpg

If you read the Sheffield Telegraph article you will see that key aspects of the building have to be preserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
for a start it will attract all the street drinkers from the cathedral project, there will be beggers and big issue sellers outside along with buskers and the like, another eyesore !!
Will it? Will it really? Really will it? I mean I cant so much as pop into the Coop on Pinstone Street without tripping over piles of street drinkers in the way.... What a load of cobblers

Street drinkers/buskers and big issue sellers are an unfortunate part of ANYWHERE in ANY city centre. Unique to supermarkets they are not.

Certainly why you feel that big issues traders and buskers would all dash across the road from the Cathedral forecourt or round the corner on fargate just to hang around an ex hsbc building is beyond me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
oh and by the way they have not bought the building its on a lease
I could not give a fig. The fact is, its an empty decaying unit that is now going to occupied by a stable and solvent company. It will bring life to what was potentially becoming a bit of a dead area.

It will serve the needs of the many people who work/visit and commute through the area. It will certainly be more attractive to the rip off coop and GT news stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
like i said earlier in the thread a shame that its not a bar or restaurant
If you read the article you will see that planning has been allocated to include a restaurant in the building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
....but then again with sheffields mentality what else could be expected soon all the centre will have is charity shops supermarkets mini marts booze stores and card shops
Except for our selection of Department Stores, fast fashion, boutique and vintage clothing, market stalls, home stores and counsumer services. Apart from that yeah.
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12-08-2013, 20:41   #57
number27
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Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
Having just been past this building again today i still cant understand how anyone in their right minds grants planning for a supermarket in this building absolutely mad and if you agree just have a walk down there and tell me why ? the access for a start is lousy at best for deliveries access for disabled is not good and anyway the building itself is far to good for a supermarket, i actually think someone in the planning dept must be on a serious backhander for this to have gone through
problem is, not many other independents can afford the rates, but Tesco can, and wouldnt it be better to have the place in use, rather than stood empty?
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12-08-2013, 21:14   #58
LeMaquis
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Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
....it will attract all the street drinkers from the cathedral project, there will be beggers and big issue sellers outside along with buskers.......like i said earlier in the thread a shame that its not a bar or restaurant..........soon all the centre will have is charity shops supermarkets mini marts booze stores and card shops......
You're equating street drinkers with Big Issue sellers and buskers? There's a difference between the two groups. The latter make an effort to improve their lot. The former don't.

16,000 live in the city centre and they need supermarkets just like your local area needs them and just as shoppers need them. This one will be right by Cathedral tram so in a prime location. It'll be a massive improvement on what it is now.

There is a lot more to the city centre than you describe. Maybe you could tell us what Debenhams, Primark, TJ Hughes, the Winter Gardens, HMV, Atkinsons, Next, the Lyceum, etc, are - charity shops, supermarkets, booze stores or card shops?

As you're Adam Smith and support free market capitalism then why don't you do what Tesco does and set up a business instead of just moaning on here?
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12-08-2013, 21:22   #59
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Originally Posted by LeMaquis View Post
You're equating street drinkers with Big Issue sellers and buskers? There's a difference between the two groups. The latter make an effort to improve their lot. The former don't.

16,000 live in the city centre and they need supermarkets just like your local area needs them and just as shoppers need them. This one will be right by Cathedral tram so in a prime location. It'll be a massive improvement on what it is now.

There is a lot more to the city centre than you describe. Maybe you could tell us what Debenhams, Primark, TJ Hughes, the Winter Gardens, HMV, Atkinsons, Next, the Lyceum, etc, are - charity shops, supermarkets, booze stores or card shops?

As you're Adam Smith and support free market capitalism then why don't you do what Tesco does and set up a business instead of just moaning on here?
you have got to be kidding!, yes for the businesses around there it will be great, but for the tourists and the Cathedral themselves it will be a thorn in the side.
street drinkers will explode and as for the rubbish and general cleanliness around the vicinity it will go downwards.
it will be bottles, fag ends, vomit, and even the odd profalactic.
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12-08-2013, 21:31   #60
Tyranna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSmith View Post
what on earth were the planners thinking of????? granting planning for a tesco in this position, i have no axe to grind against TESCO BUT SERIOUSLY SHEFFIELD COUNCIL???? next to the Cutlers hall, a building that celebrates Sheffields steel and cutlery heritage, opposite the Cathedral, hardly in keeping is it???? oh and it was a really beautiful building inside and out and have just seen the quality wooden banking hall features & guts being ripped out and thrown into skips, shame on you
Tesco are always getting it SO WRONG! Look at the way that they blocked off the Spital Hill end of Carlisle Street with their (Savile!?) Street store, jeopardising several businesses on Carlisle st. including Club Xes (now closed) a Middle Eastern food store, and even an evangelical Church, who now don't have any vehicle access direct from Spital Hill; no wonder Club Xes closed; the Taxi-drivers must have forever been getting lost...
and now Tesco admits to employing cheaper E. European labour instead of local workers, or at least that's what Labour claims to have uncovered... but guess who didnt impose controls on the number of EU workers cominmg here in the first place...
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