[halevan]

Tony Benn was answering questions on channel three TV. this morning ( Sunday ) and he said that if Britain goes in to the Euro we shall lose our sovereignty and it will be the end of Democracy in this country.

I absolutely agree with him, now is the time to say no to Europe and to keep our precious independance that we have had for centuries. All this talk we have heard over the past years, ever since we were invited to vote in a referendum about a free market and jobs and prosperity, has not materialised.

We are being lied to by Europhiles who are convinced that our future lies in Europe, I disagree, we cannot afford to be a member of the E.E.C, it is costing us millions of pounds per year to support other poorer countries who are members and getting very little back.

Pull out now I say, before it is too late and we find ourselves tied to a united states of Europe, which cannot compete with the rest of the World.

[t020]

agreed. and if we join the euro, wait until all the more poorer eastern european countries join and we have to prop up their economies. our economy is strong enough as it is, and President Blair daren't give us a referendum for fear of losing. Its a shame there'll be a referendum of another kind in 2 years time, one which hopefully Blair will not be winning.

[Gormenghast]

Originally Posted by t020

agreed. and if we join the euro, wait until all the more poorer eastern european countries join and we have to prop up their economies. our economy is strong enough as it is, and President Blair daren't give us a referendum for fear of losing. Its a shame there'll be a referendum of another kind in 2 years time, one which hopefully Blair will not be winning.

Let's just think again about this. We are close to the Lisbon Treaty being ratified. (We've already done it, without a referendum)

Do you realise what power that will give to the EU?

[The Belly]

Originally Posted by Gormenghast

Let's just think again about this. We are close to the Lisbon Treaty being ratified. (We've already done it, without a referendum)

Do you realise what power that will give to the EU?

I can tell you that it will open our borders without our control, make our laws for us and dictate our tax, it will also take away any power we have as an independent Country and we will be swallowed up in a multicultural superstate and look where multiculturalism has got us to date so far and when Blair gives the nod to Turkey, well? your guess is as good as mine.

[Phanerothyme]

Actually it's substantially better, but don't let that worry you unduly.

[The Belly]

Originally Posted by Phanerothyme

Actually it's substantially better, but don't let that worry you unduly.

And you say this based on what premis?

[Gormenghast]

Originally Posted by Phanerothyme

Actually it's substantially better, but don't let that worry you unduly.

You obviously haven't studied the detail of it have you?

[epiphany]

Whether "left" or "right", I find it difficult to understand why any true democrat would advocate joining the EU as it currently stands.

[Phanerothyme]

Originally Posted by Gormenghast

You obviously haven't studied the detail of it have you?

Regardless of whether your referring to the Lisbon Treaty, or The Belly's meandering question asking what will happen when Turkey joins the Multicultural European Superstate, I've been invited to guess, not study.

If I studied it I wouldn't be guessing, now would I?

However, I have successfully guessed the answers to questions on University Challenge before they were asked, in front of witnesses, so I believe my guesses are generally better than those of other people.

It's the art of not-knowing. It takes a lifetime to master, but it's worth it.

[Aim4]

The origins of this 'European project' go back to the 1920's, and for the men behind it, notably the Frenchman- Jean Monnet, their ultimate goal right from the start was to create a 'United States Of Europe'.
Their aim was to place the people of Europe under a form of government like nothing the world had seen before, a government that was 'supranational'.
To acheive their goal they came up with two briliantly clever ideas; the first was that it could never be acheived over-night, it would have to be assembled piece-by-piece over many years without revealing its ultimate purpose.
The other idea was that all the national governments of Europe should be left in place, while being gradualy hollowed out from within, as they passed under ever greater control by the supranational power; so what could happen was a slow-motion 'coup de tau', without people realising what was taking place.

The EU is a great deception.

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Aim4

The origins of this 'European project' go back to the 1920's, and for the men behind it, notably the Frenchman- Jean Monnet, their ultimate goal right from the start was to create a 'United States Of Europe'.
Their aim was to place the people of Europe under a form of government like nothing the world had seen before, a government that was 'supranational'.
To acheive their goal they came up with two briliantly clever ideas; the first was that it could never be acheived over-night, it would have to be assembled piece-by-piece over many years without revealing its ultimate purpose.
The other idea was that all the national governments of Europe should be left in place, while being gradualy hollowed out from within, as they passed under ever greater control by the supranational power; so what could happen was a slow-motion 'coup de tau', without people realising what was taking place.

The EU is a great deception.

Aside from the deception element of that, which is a a fabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Mo...European_ideal

I can't see any real problem with a united States of Europe. Indeed it has a lot going for it. It hasn't done our former colony the other side of the Atlantic much harm.

Where there is an issue with the EU is in the EU's anti-worker agenda best exemplified by examples like the rulings on Viking, Laval and its directives encouraging privatisations.

http://www.etuc.org/a/4627?var_recherche=viking

[Aim4]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Aside from the deception element of that, which is a a fabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Mo...European_ideal

I can't see any real problem with a united States of Europe. Indeed it has a lot going for it. It hasn't done our former colony the other side of the Atlantic much harm.

Where there is an issue with the EU is in the EU's anti-worker agenda best exemplified by examples like the rulings on Viking, Laval and its directives encouraging privatisations.

http://www.etuc.org/a/4627?var_recherche=viking

Do you think we should have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?

[Aim4]

Here's our PM, doing the dirty on his country-ratifying the Lisbon treaty

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multime..._8_254604a.jpg

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Aim4

Do you think we should have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?

Considering there were both right and left wing anti-Eu parties standing in the last European elections, I can't really see much need for a referendum. People have had their opportunity to speak on the issue.

The more important issue is how we go about influencing and campaigning for the EU to make it better represent our interests.

[jobee]

Originally Posted by t020

agreed. and if we join the euro, wait until all the more poorer eastern european countries join and we have to prop up their economies. our economy is strong enough as it is, and President Blair daren't give us a referendum for fear of losing. Its a shame there'll be a referendum of another kind in 2 years time, one which hopefully Blair will not be winning.

t020,yes I think Blair is badly schizophrenic,no alleged Christian would have helped plan Shock and Awe.

[The Belly]

Originally Posted by Phanerothyme

Regardless of whether your referring to the Lisbon Treaty, or The Belly's meandering question asking what will happen when Turkey joins the Multicultural European Superstate, I've been invited to guess, not study.

If I studied it I wouldn't be guessing, now would I?

However, I have successfully guessed the answers to questions on University Challenge before they were asked, in front of witnesses, so I believe my guesses are generally better than those of other people.

It's the art of not-knowing. It takes a lifetime to master, but it's worth it.

So you don't actually have a clue what you are talking about then? I am not asking you to guess now, I am asking you what you think the positives of joining a federal superstate are and losing control of your own Country at the same time?

You are so big headed and enlightened, so enlighten me.

[Aim4]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Considering there were both right and left wing anti-Eu parties standing in the last European elections, I can't really see much need for a referendum. People have had their opportunity to speak on the issue.

The more important issue is how we go about influencing and campaigning for the EU to make it better represent our interests.

As i sad to plekhanov in another thread-General elections in this country are a two horse race between Labour and the Conservatives, they get the largest share of the vote, and most people who vote for them are voting for them on the traditional issues that they'v always voted for them for.
But because they are both basically Europhyle, Europhyles make out that merely voting in a Labour or a Conservative government is in itself a 'yes' vote to the Lisbon treaty!!

Holding a referendum on the Lisbon treaty is 'having an opportunity to speak on it', NOT Gordon Brown and his cabinet, and David Cameron and his shadow cabinet sitting round a table saying-'most people who bother to vote, vote for us, and were all for the Lisbon treaty, so we'l just take it as read that our voters are too, so no need for a referendum'

That seems to be the logic

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Aim4

As i sad to plekhanov in another thread-General elections in this country are a two horse race between Labour and the Conservatives, they get the largest share of the vote, and most people who vote for them are voting for them on the traditional issues that they'v always voted for them for.
But because they are both basically Europhyle, Europhyles make out that merely voting in a Labour or a Conservative government is in itself a 'yes' vote to the Lisbon treaty!!

Holding a referendum on the Lisbon treaty is 'having an opportunity to speak on it', NOT Gordon Brown and his cabinet, and David Cameron and his shadow cabinet sitting round a table saying-'most people who bother to vote, vote for us, and were all for the Lisbon treaty, so we'l just take it as read that our voters are too, so no need for a referendum'

That seems to be the logic

I was talking about the EU elections, not a general election.

[The Belly]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Considering there were both right and left wing anti-Eu parties standing in the last European elections, I can't really see much need for a referendum. People have had their opportunity to speak on the issue.

The more important issue is how we go about influencing and campaigning for the EU to make it better represent our interests.

You sound just like Labour. They promised us a vote, we elected them on that basis and the reason they didn't give it to us was because they knew we would say no. We, the people have not had an opportunity to speak on the issue as you put it as we were denied a vote by the people who work for us, supposedly.

We shouldn't be thinking along the lines of influencing or getting better rights from the EU at all, if we had any sense, we would just have a free trade agreement in place just like Norway who do very well out of it indeed and make our own laws and decide for ourselves who is able to settle here on this land, its not up to unelected bureaucrats to do that for us from a land afar.

[Phanerothyme]

Originally Posted by The Belly

So you don't actually have a clue what you are talking about then? I am not asking you to guess now, I am asking you what you think the positives of joining a federal superstate are and losing control of your own Country at the same time?

You are so big headed and enlightened, so enlighten me.

I'm not the slightest bit interested, as it's all part of the inevitable and gradual death of the nation state, I merely wished to point out that your assertion:

"your guess is as good as mine"

is incorrect.