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The house of lords have now voted on brexit, with an amendment, that we should , unilaterally give leave to stay for all non nationals. As May has already tried to take this off the table, in negotiations. Is it right that we should put non nationals above British expats working living in the EU?

Edited by phil752

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No, it should be a reciprocal agreement which May wanted but Merkel blocked= https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2302122/guaranteeing-european-citizens-rights-in-the-uk-after-merkel-blocked-reciprocal-deal-would-have-left-uk-citizens-in-europe-high-and-dry-says-theresa-may/

The Lords need reforming and I think May will be looking into doing this now...

Edited by mafya

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In answer to the question, no it isn't right, but just to clarify, we aren't - the ultimate decision is with the House of Commons, not the Lords

 

We can't control what happens to Brits living abroad, so we aren't putting non-nationals above them

 

Being charitable to the House of Lords, they are suggesting we do what is right and fair for the many EU citizens living and working in the UK

 

The PM agrees with them, but believes it should be part of a negotiated agreement, which the EU negotiators won't agree to in advance of us triggering to leave the EU.

 

The House of Lords does need reforming, but I think this Government has enough on it's plate at the moment

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Wrong decision by House Of Lords. Doesn't make sense at all to guarantee EU people living here before negotiations start. What happens if EU people are allowed to stay in the UK and then the EU don't allow UK people to stay in the EU?

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Wrong decision by House Of Lords. Doesn't make sense at all to guarantee EU people living here before negotiations start. What happens if EU people are allowed to stay in the UK and then the EU don't allow UK people to stay in the EU?

 

Then we will get back a bunch of British people who don't necessarily want to be here and we will retain a bunch of EU nationals who do want to be here.

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The House of Lords are virtue signalling and trying to balance seeming useful and properly deferential at the same time.

 

It doesn't make a huge difference to the big picture as broader international law likely protects the UK migrants in the EU anyway. What it will do is prevent the PM from getting a commitment in UK nationals in the EU early in the Lisbon 50 talks with all the reassurance that would have brought them.

Edited by unbeliever

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I think it ironic in the extreme that the House of Lords, historically regarded by the left as a bastion of reaction, is now regarded by the right as a bastion of liberal insurrection. I`d have thought the fact its been considered both ways means its neither, and a valuable constitutional safeguard. Oh yes, and if the Mail, the Sun or the Express (those infamous opinionpapers) are outraged by the Lords, that more or less means I`m a big fan.

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Then we will get back a bunch of British people who don't necessarily want to be here and we will retain a bunch of EU nationals who do want to be here.
Putting some numbers on that hypothesis.

 

The UK gets back 800,000 working UK adults (mostly on benefits awhile if their EU job does not follow them here) and 400,000 self-sufficient UK retirees, with a combined annual healthcare cost of <a portion of> £580m (£580m is already in the NHS budget, as currently paid to EU member states for the expats' healthcare, but healthcare is more expensive to dispense in the UK, so the total figure would likely rise, the difference being what the NHS budget would need topping up with). (source).

 

The UK keeps 2,100,000 working EU adults (already contributing to the UK economy) and 1,300,000 non-working EU <child, dependent, job seeking, retired>, with a combined annual healthcare cost to the NHS less than that of the UK expats (source), and at least cost-neutral to the UK (since ONS studies put EU immigrants as a group, as 'contributing' overall rather than costing).

 

(NHS context highlighted in the above solely in view of the £350m voting promise :twisted:).

 

What's not to like? (assuming you're an economist/employer/taxpayer, that is, not just a xenophobe with knives out for Johnny Foreigner...which, if you are, then you should see the UK as rescuing British expats from the big bad EU, whilst keeping those vile EU economic migrants locked into economically-beneficial servitude :D)

 

Of course, your mileage may vary, depending on how the economy goes over the next few years, and which industries/jobs/employers/etc. move or fold here and/or in the EU.

Edited by L00b

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Putting some numbers on that hypothesis.

 

The UK gets back 800,000 working UK adults (mostly on benefits awhile if their EU job does not follow them here) and 400,000 self-sufficient UK retirees, with a combined annual healthcare cost of <a portion of> £580m (£580m is already in the NHS budget, as currently paid to EU member states for the expats' healthcare, but healthcare is more expensive to dispense in the UK, so the total figure would likely rise, the difference being what the NHS budget would need topping up with). (source).

 

The UK keeps 2,100,000 working EU adults (already contributing to the UK economy) and 1,300,000 non-working EU <child, dependent, job seeking, retired>, with a combined annual healthcare cost to the NHS less than that of the UK expats (source), and at least cost-neutral to the UK (since ONS studies put EU immigrants as a group, as 'contributing' overall rather than costing).

 

(NHS context highlighted in the above solely in view of the £350m voting promise :twisted:).

 

What's not to like? (assuming you're an economist/employer/taxpayer, that is, not just a xenophobe with knives out for Johnny Foreigner...which, if you are, then you should see the UK as rescuing British expats from the big bad EU, whilst keeping those vile EU economic migrants locked into economically-beneficial servitude :D)

 

Of course, your mileage may vary, depending on how the economy goes over the next few years, and which industries/jobs/employers/etc. move or fold here and/or in the EU.

 

 

This is about peoples' rights not economics.

People who have legally settled in the UK from the EU27 should have the right to remain. People who have legal led settled in the EU27 from the UK should have the right to remain. Anything else is rather hard to condone.

The UK has offered this. The EU27 won't match the offer for their own political reasons.

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Whilst I find the outcome rather amusing as someone who doesn't want Brexit, I also think the Lords are wrong here. Labour should have fought for these concessions in the Commons but decided not to do so.

 

It is a real shame that the EU and the UK have not been able to reach a pre-Article 50 agreement that guarantees the rights of both UK nationals abroad and EU nationals here, but there we go. This is different o when the Lords have stepped in before, as sometimes they've felt the need to do so as they felt government was ignoring parliament and riding roughshod as they have a majority. This isn't the case this time, Labour supported the bill and I think the Lords are wrong, even if the potential outcome pleases me.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2017 at 09:42 ----------

 

Wrong decision by House Of Lords. Doesn't make sense at all to guarantee EU people living here before negotiations start. What happens if EU people are allowed to stay in the UK and then the EU don't allow UK people to stay in the EU?

 

To be fair, I think it's the wrong decision by the EU and the UK combined to not offer those bilateral agreements at this stage. I understand, but am sadden, why the UK doesn't feel it can offer guarantees without reciprocal agreements, I just really do wish that both sides would have been able to look above money for a few moments and consider the immense damage that can be done to peoples lives who in many cases have had NO say in this whatsoever. Perhaps the UK can fast track citizenship for EU nationals who qualify under the 5 years residency laws etc?

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Whilst I find the outcome rather amusing as someone who doesn't want Brexit, I also think the Lords are wrong here. Labour should have fought for these concessions in the Commons but decided not to do so.

 

It is a real shame that the EU and the UK have not been able to reach a pre-Article 50 agreement that guarantees the rights of both UK nationals abroad and EU nationals here, but there we go. This is different o when the Lords have stepped in before, as sometimes they've felt the need to do so as they felt government was ignoring parliament and riding roughshod as they have a majority. This isn't the case this time, Labour supported the bill and I think the Lords are wrong, even if the potential outcome pleases me.

 

 

I think that's the exact problem. The EU will not negotiate a single comma of the post-Brexit arrangements until Lisbon 50 is activated and possibly also until the matter of their fantasy bill is settled.

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I think that's the exact problem. The EU will not negotiate a single comma of the post-Brexit arrangements until Lisbon 50 is activated and possibly also until the matter of their fantasy bill is settled.

 

You mean the bill that we signed up to in the first place? Bit like a mortgage that one isn't it? You take an agreement for a number of years and even if you burn your house down you still owe it. Funny that.

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