Will Your Business be better In Or Out Of The EU

The 'infamous' government advice leaflet has landed today... So from a strictly business point of view, will your company be better off in or out of the EU and why? For anyone who hasn't seen it yet the website is here https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk

 

(The SF general discuss thread is here https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1405170)

 

---------- Post added 13-04-2016 at 14:19 ----------

 

EU vote hits Sheffield City Region growth:

http://www.thestar.co.uk/business/eu-vote-hits-sheffield-city-region-growth-1-7847762

Strictly from a business perspective, my business is better off in. This is because we have secured European funding for our 3D Print technology http://www.picsima.com. There is further funding and support which we can also access too.

 

I could give a personal view, but you have made your question very specific to keep it to business

Thanks Steve, will be interesting to see how the debate developments

My company buys and sells around the world, with about 1/4 of sales into the EU. I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference. Exiting the EU might add to the paperwork at the docks for our haulage companies, but reduce it in our office.

I have been retired many years now and like Steve my business received funding from the EU for development. I am also old enough to remember life before we joined and how difficult traveling around Europe with a car load of scientific equipment could be.

The substantial harmonising of IP laws and procedures achieved to date across EU Member States, including the EU, means that currently, it has never been easier and cheaper for UK businesses to obtain registered IP rights across EU Member States, lastly on March 23 with further changes to the European trademark and design registration system expanding the scope of enforcement and relief for IP owners and reducing filing and registration fees.

 

Brexiting means the UK would get kicked out of that system, no ifs or buts (the system is not open to EEA/EFTA members, so there is no possibility of "Brexiting but keeping in by agreement") and there would be a big question about what then happens to the UK 'share' of existing European trademarks and designs. Maybe that would be parted out from EU rights as backdated UK rights. There are no official plans about it, that I'm aware of. Meaning more costs to IP rights owners (procedural aspects/follow-up).

 

New European trademarks and designs applications would in any case cease to apply to the UK, meaning distinct UK trademarks and designs would be required. Meaning more costs to IP rights owners (EU + UK rights required, not 'just' EU (incl. UK) anymore).

 

UK firms would in any case lose their right of audience at the EUIPO, meaning non-EU (now including UK) IP rights owners would have to use EU (French, German... now excluding UK) IP firms instead for professional representation. Loss of profitable work for UK IP firms, more costs regardless for UK IP rights owners.

 

In patent matters, the 'European' patent system is still the misnomer which it always was (it is entirely unrelated to the EU in any way, shape or form: that system is entirely based on the European Patent Convention ('EPC') which is an international treaty signed by EU and non-EU countries, no trace of the EU anywhere in or near its statutes, rules, regs, bodies and case law). That won't change with a Brexit.

 

But, and this is a big but, in most lay people's minds (and particularly foreign non-EU ones), it is (wrongly) associated with the EU whence, following a Brexit, then US, Japanese, Chinese, Aussie, Kiwi <etc.> applicants for European patents are far more likely to retain French and German European patent practitioners than British ones, who -though still entitled to do the work just the same- will be perceived as 'out of the system' due to not being in the EU anymore.

 

The UK will also lose the implantation of half of the forthcoming Unified Patent Court ('UPC') and the jobs and EPO and EU funding for it,that was agreed to be located in London last year. The UPC has been in the making for 40-odd years and it is the only 'link' (and a very small/partial one at that) between the European patent system and the EU: it is a single Court established by treaty between the EU and the non-EU member states of the European patent system, and designed to litigate patent matters across (most "that matters", but not all of-) the EU in one place (with the London/Paris split based on technical subject-matter: biotech in London, mech eng/electric eng/<other> in Paris), rather than the long-dating, still current and eye-wateringly expensive country-by-country litigation system.

 

Paris will keep their half, London's will in all likelihood be relocated to Germany, and smart money would say in Munich where the European Patent Office is based, unless it goes to The Hague in the Netherlands where the EPO has it second largest implantation and which already has a plethora of high-level legal practitioners due to the long-standing presence of the International Tribunal and the International Arbitration Centre.

 

In all of the above, as a UK firm of IP practitioners, we would win some (UK rights replacing EP/EU rights) and lose more (EP/EU work). The same applies to the vast majority of the IP profession in the UK.

 

We would definitely lose more than we gain: the EP patent work is still the most profitable by far, and see above re. expected transfer of workload to France (a little) and Germany (mostly); and clients have now long been filing mostly EU rights due to the cost-benefit ratio (and they'd likely continue, but have EU [French/German] attorneys do that for them, since we would lose our right of audience at the EUIPO), and we'd likely never actually get our right of audience at the UPC and so not be able to get hold of that highly profitable litigation work.

 

Personally, due to some of my qualifications (EU and non-UK), I'd still keep my personal right of audience at the EUIPO and possibly also at the UPC, so quids in for me any which way.

 

But, and again this is a big but, personally still, if Brexit then I plan to relocate to Luxembourg or Strasbourg. I will still be able to service UK and Irish clients from there, but would keep the EU/EP work as before and benefit from the anticipated transfer of workload. In business terms, the UK firm I currently work for would lose my productivity and profitability (6 figures) on top of the EU/EP work expected to go to the Continent. I'm not alone on that 'planned' boat, either.

 

No hard feelings, reading Brexiters, it's business, not personal (...though a bit of Schadenfreude may prove hard to resist, after all the fair warnings )

Edited April 19, 2016 by L00b

I recall exporting to Slovakia back in the mid 1990's and the paperwork was a bloody nightmare ...

 

Everything had to be written out in triplicate , then checked and stamped at the local chamber of commerce (for a fee obviously).

 

If small one thing was wrong , the shipment got delayed / stuck.

 

Now I ship all over Europe (and beyond frankly) with hardly any paperwork involved.

An occasional commercial invoice for places outside the EU but nothing more.

 

The monthly intrastat and EC VAT sales reporting is a pain but only takes a few minutes online.

 

The thought of putting up borders again (and it wont just be us , if we leave , the Italians and French might follow which will kill the EU project) fills me with dread.

 

And the borders wont just be for EU import / export , we will be essentially re-writing ALL our trade agreements globally.

 

(I realise Slovakia at the time was outside the EU but if we leave - we will be outside the EU so feel my point is valid)

I recall exporting to Slovakia back in the mid 1990's and the paperwork was a bloody nightmare ...

 

Everything had to be written out in triplicate , then checked and stamped at the local chamber of commerce (for a fee obviously).

 

If small one thing was wrong , the shipment got delayed / stuck.

 

Now I ship all over Europe (and beyond frankly) with hardly any paperwork involved.

An occasional commercial invoice for places outside the EU but nothing more.

 

The monthly intrastat and EC VAT sales reporting is a pain but only takes a few minutes online.

 

The thought of putting up borders again (and it wont just be us , if we leave , the Italians and French might follow which will kill the EU project) fills me with dread.

 

And the borders wont just be for EU import / export , we will be essentially re-writing ALL our trade agreements globally.

 

(I realise Slovakia at the time was outside the EU but if we leave - we will be outside the EU so feel my point is valid)

 

The problem with selling in Slovakia was because it was Slovakia, and not because we were or weren't in the EU. It was like selling to Russia, which we do and is still a nightmare (particularly proving that goods don't originate from Turkey!)

 

How difficult is it selling to Norway, or Australia, South Africa, or the USA? Not very.

 

I don't imagine for a moment that our customers and suppliers will treat us any differently irrespective of whether we are in the EU or not.

The problem with selling in Slovakia was because it was Slovakia, and not because we were or weren't in the EU. It was like selling to Russia, which we do and is still a nightmare (particularly proving that goods don't originate from Turkey!)

 

How difficult is it selling to Norway, or Australia, South Africa, or the USA? Not very.

 

I don't imagine for a moment that our customers and suppliers will treat us any differently irrespective of whether we are in the EU or not.

 

I have sold to Slovakia (and other now EU countries which were problematic in the past e.g. Poland) since they joined the EU and have sold goods several times to Russia with zero issues or any onerous paperwork needed.

 

Actually selling to the USA brings up far more barriers (and Australia can be tricky as you need to be very careful you have the correct papers in place showing any packaging made of wood has been treated).

 

Its got nothing to do with how the customers/suppliers want to trade with us (or vice-versa).

I am sure we all want to carry on trading in the event of Brexit

 

Its all to do with the rules in place.

 

As we stand , the system works.

 

With Brexit , who knows ? And I am not prepared to take that risk.

Selling to the USA and Australia brings up more barriers than Russia? Seriously?

 

Anyway requirements for wood packaging and fumigation are more a result of geography rather than being in the EU, so Portugal are not so casual about what wood we use when exporting there.

 

There seems to be some assumption that Brexit will lead to all trade agreements being scrapped and starting again from scratch, but in reality we are where we are and things would just evolve from here.

 

I'm concerned about what L00b says about his business, and about what some people have said about banking, but for me importing/exporting goods will just carry on regardless.

I'm concerned about what L00b says about his business, and about what some people have said about banking, but for me importing/exporting goods will just carry on regardless.

Without wanting to go off-topic and turn this thread into yet another Brexit debate...considering the prominence of the financial sector within the UK's GDP and its sheer importance to the UK's tax revenue and national economy: that is what you, and every other UK resident, British or not, should be most concerned about.

 

Not many people have talked about the recent merger of the London Stock Exchange with Deutsche Boerse. There's plenty of easily-guessed method to their madness, even though they're busy PR'ing to the contrary before the referendum.

 

By all means I'm quite happy to let Brexiters take the above as scaremongering, conspiracy, cynicism <whatever>...I just wouldn't be surprised by an HQ-and-jobs move to Frankfurt within a few months, maybe up to a year, after a Brexit vote. In the least. Much easier to do the deed after the ink has dried on the paper, than whilst negotiation are going on about what actually gets to be put on the paper: just like in that old Natwest advert with the fat banker..."what you gonna do about it?"

Edited April 19, 2016 by L00b

From today's Financial times

 

What Brexit means for trade: http://on.ft.com/24wwaqK