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23-10-2016, 13:54   #41
unbeliever
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Originally Posted by andyofborg View Post
that may be nice in a theoretical sense but the reality of life is that some decisions in one parliament which will have an effect long into the future.
An effect to be certain. But that's quite different from locking in a policy.
 
23-10-2016, 14:05   #42
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An effect to be certain. But that's quite different from locking in a policy.
not really, all governments are constantly criticised for being too short term and not focusing on longer term solutions to our problems.
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23-10-2016, 14:05   #43
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Originally Posted by LeMaquis View Post
Free movement of people was part of the original Treaty of Rome. This was agreed to by the people of the UK in 1975 when they voted to remain in the then EEC. So the EU could hardly be ignoring the people of the UK when the people of the UK voted for it.

---------- Post added 23-10-2016 at 13:19 ----------



Do you know how long it would take any government to overturn all policy? Well the answer is at lot longer than the 5 years of any government.
your right but that was when there were 9 members 6 before the we signed the Treaty of Rome, all of similar economic status.
 
23-10-2016, 14:09   #44
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not really, all governments are constantly criticised for being too short term and not focusing on longer term solutions to our problems.
Sure. But a long term decision can be reversible. Just most of them probably shouldn't be. Doesn't make it wise or righteous to remove the people from long-term decision making.

There's a pragmatic advantage in taking long term decision making out of the hands of politics and handing it over to a democracy. But there's a massive down-side in removing or at least drastically reducing democratic accountability.
You might think it a good trade. I do not.
 
23-10-2016, 17:58   #45
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Originally Posted by cgksheff View Post
Aren't Canada negotiating access to the Single Market?


... without free movement?
No, they are negotiating a free trade agreement. Quite different.
 
23-10-2016, 18:09   #46
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No, they are negotiating a free trade agreement. Quite different.
What's the difference? I genuinely don't know.
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23-10-2016, 19:18   #47
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What's the difference? I genuinely don't know.
This is one of the key-issues of the Brexit debate, the Remain side never managed to clarify this either. A single market is where regulations governing product standards are equal to all those that trade within it. Free trade just means dropping trade-barriers and in the case of CETA/TTIP agreeing on some common laws to smooth trade beyond trade barriers.

The UK has a single market, you, as a Sheffielder, are free to work in Scotland, sell your wares in Scotland and implement British law in Scotland - single market. If the Scots stopped you working in Scotland and implementing British law in Scotland you would be going towards a free trade agreement instead.

It is pretty complex, after all, Scotland in the devolution has already gained some lawmaking capabilities related to when certain wares are allowed to be sold and when not, but in essence the UK has a single market. Currently that single market extends all over Europe. Post-Brexit it won't as things stand now, it will just be a free trade agreement.

What does that mean? British goods won't be considered equal to EU goods - ie. a British IT service provider can be thrown out of an EU bid on the grounds that the service provider is not in the EU. British workers won't be able to travel to Europe without the right paper work, nor will British goods. Now the first bit sounds Hosannah to many Brexiteers, but the second bit is hugely underestimated - in essence it means that Exporters to the EU *the majority of UK export goes to the EU* still have to implement EU law to be able to sell on European markets, yet get no say whatsoever on what that EU law is.
 
23-10-2016, 19:43   #48
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Originally Posted by tzijlstra View Post
This is one of the key-issues of the Brexit debate, the Remain side never managed to clarify this either. A single market is where regulations governing product standards are equal to all those that trade within it. Free trade just means dropping trade-barriers and in the case of CETA/TTIP agreeing on some common laws to smooth trade beyond trade barriers.

The UK has a single market, you, as a Sheffielder, are free to work in Scotland, sell your wares in Scotland and implement British law in Scotland - single market. If the Scots stopped you working in Scotland and implementing British law in Scotland you would be going towards a free trade agreement instead.

It is pretty complex, after all, Scotland in the devolution has already gained some lawmaking capabilities related to when certain wares are allowed to be sold and when not, but in essence the UK has a single market. Currently that single market extends all over Europe. Post-Brexit it won't as things stand now, it will just be a free trade agreement.

What does that mean? British goods won't be considered equal to EU goods - ie. a British IT service provider can be thrown out of an EU bid on the grounds that the service provider is not in the EU. British workers won't be able to travel to Europe without the right paper work, nor will British goods. Now the first bit sounds Hosannah to many Brexiteers, but the second bit is hugely underestimated - in essence it means that Exporters to the EU *the majority of UK export goes to the EU* still have to implement EU law to be able to sell on European markets, yet get no say whatsoever on what that EU law is.

That's a pretty good summary. Except that the majority of UK export does not, as I understand it, go to the EU and hasn't for a few years now.

The "single market" is would probably be better called the EU internal market.
In principle UK businesses will now have second class status in the EU internal market, it's a matter of a great deal of conjecture and debate as to what difference that will make.
 
23-10-2016, 20:37   #49
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Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
That's a pretty good summary. Except that the majority of UK export does not, as I understand it, go to the EU and hasn't for a few years now.

The "single market" is would probably be better called the EU internal market.
In principle UK businesses will now have second class status in the EU internal market, it's a matter of a great deal of conjecture and debate as to what difference that will make.
First point - the EU is the UKs biggest trade partner by far.

Second point - there is a debate, in or out. The out guys are winning for some bizarre reason, the UK is set to leave the single market and become an external trade partner. Just like those IT service firms I mentioned there are thousands of other trades that are going to be considered second class to internal EU suppliers at the stroke of a pen. The reason the market isn't diving of a cliff yet - businessmen and advisors are putting pressure on the government for a reason, leaving the single market is a single punch to the temple for the UK export economy. There is no if or but, that is what is on the table.

What I always wonder about your point of view in this debate, if you had realised all the facts before the vote would you have let your obsession with the energy-agenda lead you to the same decision? Surely, as a scientist in the local area, you are aware that the University of Sheffield has implemented yet another round of voluntary redundancy and a recruitment stop? They aren't alone.

It is going to haunt you for a long time and your career will be hindered. Is that a price worth paying for a, in my opinion, petty-project that isn't even correctly interpreted as you don't seem to have an understanding of all the facts?
 
23-10-2016, 20:56   #50
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Originally Posted by tzijlstra View Post
First point - the EU is the UKs biggest trade partner by far.

Second point - there is a debate, in or out. The out guys are winning for some bizarre reason, the UK is set to leave the single market and become an external trade partner. Just like those IT service firms I mentioned there are thousands of other trades that are going to be considered second class to internal EU suppliers at the stroke of a pen. The reason the market isn't diving of a cliff yet - businessmen and advisors are putting pressure on the government for a reason, leaving the single market is a single punch to the temple for the UK export economy. There is no if or but, that is what is on the table.

What I always wonder about your point of view in this debate, if you had realised all the facts before the vote would you have let your obsession with the energy-agenda lead you to the same decision? Surely, as a scientist in the local area, you are aware that the University of Sheffield has implemented yet another round of voluntary redundancy and a recruitment stop? They aren't alone.

It is going to haunt you for a long time and your career will be hindered. Is that a price worth paying for a, in my opinion, petty-project that isn't even correctly interpreted as you don't seem to have an understanding of all the facts?
I have bigger concerns than my own status and career progression. I have explained these at great length.

There is a clear distinction between being the biggest trading partner and being the majority trading partner. This is not a huge correction and I don't disagree with the bulk of your previous post otherwise.
 
23-10-2016, 21:08   #51
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Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
I have bigger concerns than my own status and career progression. I have explained these at great length.

There is a clear distinction between being the biggest trading partner and being the majority trading partner. This is not a huge correction and I don't disagree with the bulk of your previous post otherwise.
It is both the biggest and the majority, 55%+ for EEA exports - 50%+ for EU exports, Over 60% for imports for both.

Brexit is playing with fire for international trade, not just for the UK, but also for its biggest trading partners in the EU, the Dutch are the third biggest Export destination and 4th biggest Import source (only just after China). The US, which I presume you are referring to, are reliant on the UK being a gateway into Europe, particularly for high-tech manufacturing and pharmaceutical.
 
23-10-2016, 21:24   #52
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Originally Posted by tzijlstra View Post
It is both the biggest and the majority, 55%+ for EEA exports - 50%+ for EU exports, Over 60% for imports for both.

Brexit is playing with fire for international trade, not just for the UK, but also for its biggest trading partners in the EU, the Dutch are the third biggest Export destination and 4th biggest Import source (only just after China). The US, which I presume you are referring to, are reliant on the UK being a gateway into Europe, particularly for high-tech manufacturing and pharmaceutical.

This is not my information, although it's not that far off so maybe it doesn't matter too much.
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statisti...n-EU_Data.aspx

Economics are important to be sure. But short term economic stability is not the only factor in political decision making. It should not be and it probably could not be.
Disrupting a stagnating market often brings great benefits.
 
23-10-2016, 22:29   #53
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...Disrupting a stagnating market often brings great benefits.
Can you provide examples?
 
23-10-2016, 22:37   #54
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Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
This is not my information, although it's not that far off so maybe it doesn't matter too much.
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statisti...n-EU_Data.aspx

Economics are important to be sure. But short term economic stability is not the only factor in political decision making. It should not be and it probably could not be.
Disrupting a stagnating market often brings great benefits.
It isn't short term, the project you are dismissing has been with us since the 1980s. That is well beyond the regular economic cycle. This will have a long term impact.

Not to mention that the perceived benefits as on display in the previous threads are pipe-dreams, immigration will only come down if the economy does tank (more and more likely), 'sovereignty' is just going to lead to bigger political swings in this country and the perceived collapse of the EU is as far away now as it was before the financial crisis of 2008. (Dutch source re. faith in the European Project)
 
23-10-2016, 22:40   #55
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Disrupting a stagnating market often brings great benefits.
What a curious phrase.

Which market are we disrupting?

How do you classify the disruption?

Is it the single market?

Are you suggesting trade will increase greatly with Europe ?

You say often brings great benefits can you illustrate the often point from the examples you are relying on?

Isnt there also the possibility that such disruption could make things worse?
 
23-10-2016, 23:35   #56
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Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
Disrupting a stagnating market often brings great benefits.
You are going to need to back that up in some way.

What disruption do you envisage? And what do you think the benefits will be? Some real world examples would be good.
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24-10-2016, 06:00   #57
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Originally Posted by tzijlstra View Post
It isn't short term, the project you are dismissing has been with us since the 1980s. That is well beyond the regular economic cycle. This will have a long term impact.

Not to mention that the perceived benefits as on display in the previous threads are pipe-dreams, immigration will only come down if the economy does tank (more and more likely), 'sovereignty' is just going to lead to bigger political swings in this country and the perceived collapse of the EU is as far away now as it was before the financial crisis of 2008. (Dutch source re. faith in the European Project)
Millions of people disagree with you or don't care and ignoring the wishes of millions of people will eventually lead to disaster.
 
24-10-2016, 06:52   #58
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Originally Posted by Petminder View Post
Millions of people disagree with you or don't care and ignoring the wishes of millions of people will eventually lead to disaster.
Millions of people were not aware of all the facts or certainly did not understand what they were voting on - and even now fail to acknowledge what they voted on. What are you going to do when the economy crashes? Don't you think that will lead to disaster?
 
24-10-2016, 06:54   #59
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Off the top of my head, since everybody seems so keen...

The introduction of the internet was very disruptive to the communications market, and to the retail market and almost everything else.
The introduction of the train, and later the bus, were very disruptive to the transport market.

The EU is, I think, the worlds only declining trade bloc. Maybe it need shaking up a little.
 
24-10-2016, 07:29   #60
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Originally Posted by tzijlstra View Post
Millions of people were not aware of all the facts or certainly did not understand what they were voting on - and even now fail to acknowledge what they voted on. What are you going to do when the economy crashes? Don't you think that will lead to disaster?


Your opinion on whether we knew what were voting for is unimportant, the consequences of ignoring the wishes of the people would be far worse than the consequences of implementing their wishes.
 
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