National service

I wonder if this has any relevance to your time in national service in BAOR. I was part of REME light aid detachment Quebec barracks Osnabruk 1952/53

 

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Sure was , But a bit later than you, July '54 to March '56. BHQ Tp 32 Bty.

Block 9, the last one in the row before the Locating Bty accommodation. You must have been there almost from the start........ I've found Quebec was built post war on an old Balkan Army POW camp. !6 LAA Regt. RA were the first unit in, i'm told, & that was in 1952. I managed to get in touch with 20 odd of the old BHQ Tp and half dozen met up and went back, first to Osnabruck, then later to 16 AD Regt RA in Woolwich. That was around 1998, I think. & we still keep in touch. Too late to do the visit again, as Quebec was handed over to the town & demolished last year. Looking back we'd enjoyed a lot of NS ( having forgotten all the irritations !) And if we'd closed our eyes and just listened to the conversation, you'd have thought it was the same old crowd who'd sniggered or moaned 40 years before. Time is a great healer !!!!!!!!

 

---------- Post added 23-09-2014 at 17:40 ----------

 

Cartav,. Have a look at the video, there's one or two featuring the .303 on YouTube. Note how the shooter keeps his thumb over the bolt. The rifle in question was one of the finest ever devised, in my own opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interesting TexaS ! And informative and conflicting with other data I have.

Don't know if it's the same video but the one I logged onto has some Yank banging of 10 rounds in 6.5 seconds !!!!! Hardly aimed stuff as he can't keep the piece under control.......... Nothing I've seen as being Brit army SOP though, neither rate of fire or squeezing trigger with little finger or something. I did find a ref to a possible engagement with SMLE out to 2800 yds, max, but this is not aimed stuff, just s..t in the air at massed infantry in ranks or cavalry. Going back a long time ! 2800 yd range quoted matches other refs for the Vickers MG in WW1. Whilst 2800 is a planning figure, bullets don't all travel the same distance and could drop anywhere in an elliptical beaten zone 8 yards wide & 215 yards long. It's suggested that, now, rifle fire is likely to be opened up on targets between 300 & 600 yds max. And at that max. the shooter would have to be clued up to hit a man sized target. A side wind, for instance, could throw a 0.303 round 3 feet off line and there'd be variations in ammunition and the grouping capacity of each weapon..

I wonder if this has any relevance to your time in national service in BAOR. I was part of REME light aid detachment Quebec barracks Osnabruk 1952/53

 

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Sure was , But a bit later than you, July '54 to March '56. BHQ Tp 32 Bty.

Block 9, the last one in the row before the Locating Bty accommodation. You must have been there almost from the start........ I've found Quebec was built post war on an old Balkan Army POW camp. !6 LAA Regt. RA were the first unit in, i'm told, & that was in 1952. I managed to get in touch with 20 odd of the old BHQ Tp and half dozen met up and went back, first to Osnabruck, then later to 16 AD Regt RA in Woolwich. That was around 1998, I think. & we still keep in touch. Too late to do the visit again, as Quebec was handed over to the town & demolished last year. Looking back we'd enjoyed a lot of NS ( having forgotten all the irritations !) And if we'd closed our eyes and just listened to the conversation, you'd have thought it was the same old crowd who'd sniggered or moaned 40 years before. Time is a great healer !!!!!!!!

 

My memory is a bit iffy these days but I do remember that after being conscripted I couldn't wait to get out, many a time since then I have looked back and thought it was no where near as bad as I imagined at the time. It made me smile a bit when you mentioned gunnery practice the REME mob went with the AA regiment to the Isle of Sylt for target practice twice and out of the workshops it was like a holiday for us.

I bet your trip to Osnabruck brought back some nice memories

 

All the best

AK

Cartav, I think you are right about the rate of fire I mentioned in my original post............................ [/QUOTe]

 

 

Know what Texas ? I guess we are both right !!!!! The videos of fast shooting will be accurate as examples of un-aimed trickery, but the methods of operating would have small arms instructors pulling their hair out if they were used in controlled, competitive conditions where accuracy is as important as speed. Wicki tells that the accepted Brit Army record was set up in the 1930s and is 37 rounds per minute.

 

With regard to range of an SMLE, the sight settings vary with when & where the weapon was made. Examples introduced early 1900s had been made to address deficiencies with the Lee Metford which came to light in long range engagements in the Boer War. With that 2800 yd figure for the distance a 0.303 round might travel, a 3000 yd setting on the sights would be realistic. Later it changed........ My son has a deactivated Mark 3 dated 1937 with the V-notched backsight in front of breech. This is graduated in 25 yd settings up to a max. of 2000 yds.

 

The No.4 rifle of WW2 & NS was made in US, Canada and some at Maltby UK amongst other places. Flip up aperture backsights were 1300 yd max, but some US production simplified things to incorporate a two groove rifling and a cheaper flip up backsight with only 200 & 400 yd ( I think ! ) apertures.

After reading thro' all the info' on the SMLE I guess the model I was familiar with would be the No4. I remember it had the spike bayonet and a bloody nuisance that was especially in the 'fix bayonets' drill movement.

The record for speed shooting was interesting, 37 rounds per minute. Aimed or not you wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of that lot!

My RA training never introduced us to bayonets, never handled one but I'm told there were some in the armoury. Always thought it would have been better to be in the front rank if they were going through those "slope arms" movements.

And live ammunition, apart from range days, only came my way once. Around Christmas of 1955 there was a Kraut imitating Dick Turpin on the trunk roads, the Beast of the Autobahn they called him. He was armed and mobile, he played games with the police and wrote to newspapers about his successes. Being Christmas the Army thought the mail might be targeted and 16 LAA RA decided to put an armed guard on the QL 3-tonner that travelled each day to Munster, I landed the duty once . NCO in the cab, squaddy in the back, both with a No..4 Enfield. The NCO had two chargers of 5 rounds, the orders said that if fired on he could load his rifle, then dismount and give the second charger to the lad in the back. Sounded a bit dodgy, I pointed out it would have been impossible to use a rifle from the cab, and strolling round to get to the back was an even worse proposition. I suggested Stens with two loaded mags would have been a more sensible arrangement. The RSM was furious that his orders were being questioned.

" Stens ?" he roared back " Stens is dangerous ! Somebody could get hurt if you had Stens!!!!"

I got a laugh out of that, Cartav, I could just hear him on about the Sten. At 2 TR Catterick, as linemen, we got a couple of days training with the Sten. We were showed how to disassemble and back again, keeping it clean etc; and then onto the range. The range consisted of man sized targets and a some mock buildings. We got two magazines, of 9mm, about 15 rounds in each. We were to fire on semi-automatic and full automatic. I think I got about 10 rounds on target out of 30, that in semi automatic mode. I suppose if you had one and had a lot of practice you could make a job of it, but one afternoon? The instructor emphasised that great care had to be taken in handling the weapon. But it must've been affective under battle conditions.

I mentioned the bayonet really in passing because in all the drill we did I think the order 'Fix bayonets' only occurred a couple of times. The big hang up was getting the bayonet affixed on the rifle. On each occasion at least half a dozen in the squad wouldn't have got the thing on properly and on going back to attention, the bayonet just fell to the ground. I've always seen the funny side of things and for me it was just too much, I always got the bollockings even if I'd been lucky and got the bayonet to stay on.

I got a laugh out of that, Cartav, I could just hear him on about the Sten. At 2 TR Catterick, as linemen, we got a couple of days training with the Sten...........

Thanks for that Texas ! Inevitably you've reminded me of something else....

After 14 days in khaki, the 54.08 intake at 68 Trg. Regt. RA Oswestry had been kitted out, were almost hairless and could be trusted not to drop knives, forks & spoons in any of the bubbling tanks marked "Wash", "Rinse" & "sterilise" which were sited beside the exit door from the cookhouse.

All had an interview with the PSO ( Personnel Selection Officer ). With the blindfold and pin which were the tools of his trade, each of the intake was now aware of how he might be employed for the remaining 102 weeks in the Army. But first came trade training. Sigs & drivers would go to Rhyl, ack ack & radar were bound for Tonfanau, a bleak location on the Welsh coast, field gunners stayed in Oswestry. Driver trainees rejoiced, the rest shrugged their shoulders, accepted their lot, for there was F A they could do about it anyway. Except McLean. He was down to remain in Oswestry, marked out to stay in 68 Trg Regt, probably to become a reception NCO, a Drill Pig. He was baffled, confused. In civvy street he had been with GPO Telephones, his mates had nearly always ended up in Royal Sigs for their National Service, he'd expected the same. A second interview with the PSO followed.

The reason for McLean's posting was simple. All proimsing sportsmen who found themselves in 68 Regt were retained, given chance to pursue their sports. Nominally they'd be Drill Pigs, actually they'd be a privileged bunch who'd win cups for the regiment. McLean remained baffled, he had never shone at any competitive sport. It became clear that MclLean's prior job of Lineman had been misunderstood. To the PSO he was a Linesman, an assistant soccer referee, obviously a man with sporting credentials. We never found out what happened, we'd dispersed before the situation was resolved.

Why was it all the hardcases were Scots? Jim Austen mentions a Jock McPhate, his description is almost a cliche. We had one in 3 GHQ, 'Spanky' Preston by name, a terrible man. Always a threat, and everybody steered well clear. He came from Glasgow too and even the Glaswegians in our troop kept away. Apart from all the usual mayhem, which I dont really want to relate, he finished up in hospital and they had to strap him down. When he got out it seems he was going to the compound, so he knocked the driver of an ambulance, unsconcious, and drove off. We heard that he'd been picked up in Cairo by the Military Police via the Egyptian Police. He was badly beaten apparently. A total nutter.

But what of the other characters? We had this kid 'Woggy' Fox, he was so dark he used to get propositioned by Egyptian funny people. It upset him no end.

And we had an 'Anglo' by the name of Sid Murphy. I mean I ask you, an anglo Indian called Sydney Murphy. He was a great guy though. Can you visualize him speaking with the hindi accent and the head going side to side, like they do ' What time is it?' My stomach thinks my throat is cut.'

And a guy named Gerry Booroff, Londoner, from Willesden. Butter wouldn't melt in this guys mouth. We had a nutcase Officer,name of Rogers, who dreamt up the idea of a Regimental boxing team to take on the mighty Ordinance Corps. Gerry found himself on boxing training.

He turned out the best of the bunch, he won his bout, the only win of the tournament, I might add, and was stalked by 'Spanky' Preston for weeks. Gerry had to sleep with a Stella bottle every night.

Hi Texas, I found this post by accident and have just read it out over the phone to Gerry Booroff who is my husbands uncle. He was so chuffed and remembers Spanky Preston the same way you do. He was very interested to know who you were so if you wish to private message me please do

Hi Texas, I found this post by accident and have just read it out over the phone to Gerry Booroff who is my husbands uncle. He was so chuffed and remembers Spanky Preston the same way you do. He was very interested to know who you were so if you wish to private message me please do

Hi, I would've put this in a private message normally, but my message boxes filled up a while ago so I don't bother trying anymore.

I was surprised and pleased to hear Gerry is still around, I hope he's in good health and all. Have you read all of the National Service thread? There are a few characters and anecdotes that Gerry might remember. I was trying to remember where I first got to know him, I thought it might have been in basic training at Vimy Lines, Catterick, but I'm not sure. His intake group was 51/14, mine was 51/13, but I did my basic with the 14's.

Certainly we were in the same lines in Egypt, In 1 Squadron,3GHQ. We arrived at the same time.

He was in the same tent as myself and had to put up with the same bull**** all newcomers always had to put up with. Ask him if he remembers a kid called Ashby, a very self opinionated Brummie. Someone used to call him 'Asinine' Ashby, I suppose because he was an ass. And his mate Alcott, who fancied himself as some kind of opera singer, especially Mario Lanza (who was very popular at the time). He would come into our tent to talk to Ashby, strike a pose, and sing (sotto voce), some sort of operatic aria. He was weird. There was a Lance Corporal, in charge of the tent, called Langley. He came from Biggleswade. And there was a Cipher Corporal called Urquhart, he came from Arran, the western Isles of Scotland. I eventually got moved into 2 Squadron with Transmitters so I didn't see a lot of Gerry after that. He would probably remember me as 'Yorky'.

The last time I saw him was in London, it must've been 1965 or so. I was at the top end of Whitehall just crossing the road, the lights changed and there was Gerry. We only had time to show recognition, then he was gone. Give him my best wishes and tell him to keep his guard up, there ain't many of us left.