Are you bothered about losing your right to live/work in Europe?

I would advise you against making direct insults on this forum. If the mods see it they will react strongly.

 

Look back over my posts on this matter. Or don't and just call me racist without any rational though or concern for your devaluation of that word.

 

I have supported immigration throughout this matter and made my case based on the value of national sovereignty and democratic accountability.

As you would know if you wanted to argue on facts and reason rather than just showing up and insulting people for daring to disagree with you.

I have read many of your posts on this subject and you, just like many others who supported Brexit become dismissive once you feel your point of view is not being swallowed. Maybe it is a symptom of yourself being so willing to swallow lies and racist rhetoric, Im unsure, but as I have said already, I have yet to meet a single Brexiteer who can give a coherent argument in favour of leaving the EU without resorting to either racist stereotypes of regurgitating already debunked media lies.

Oh and please do not tell me what I can and cannot post on this forum. If you feel my comments are in breach of the terms of use, you can report the post to the mods who are there to police the site and not you.

I have read many of your posts on this subject and you, just like many others who supported Brexit become dismissive once you feel your point of view is not being swallowed. Maybe it is a symptom of yourself being so willing to swallow lies and racist rhetoric, Im unsure, but as I have said already, I have yet to meet a single Brexiteer who can give a coherent argument in favour of leaving the EU without resorting to either racist stereotypes of regurgitating already debunked media lies.

 

Oh and please do not tell me what I can and cannot post on this forum. If you feel my comments are in breach of the terms of use, you can report the post to the mods who are there to police the site and not you.

I tend to avoid reporting people without first trying to resolve disputes directly. If you're not interested in resolving matters in that way, I shall not attempt it again with you.

You've clearly not read my posts on this matter. As you again mischaracterise them. As for being "dismissive" I take no advice on debate etiquette from somebody who throws the R word around so recklessly.

What argument for leaving has been, as you put it, "debunked"?

You know this idea of European citizenship only dates back to 1993.

Freely so, as a fellow European citizen empowered to do so. No job (alright, an unpaid placement lined up at Aeromed in Dino, complete fluke), no contacts, not much in the way of formal educational attainments (and none to which a Brit employer could relate howsoever), and very substantially less than the current visa-grade funds minima. And spoken English just about good enough to order a beer lager (I copped on with that one quick ), but not much else.

A beaten up BX, a case and a laptop, enough pocket change to spend a few B&B nights and not starve, some savings to live until placement end, that was it. You'd see me in the streets like that nowadays, you'd insta-badge me "another one o'dem migrants" on sight.

Now, yes, as you say, it wasn't that long ago.

But in that time, I've since married (locally, met her that year in 1993 as it happens), had a kid, changed (EU) country twice or thrice (and come back), done a degree (SHU, to become more employable in UK, EU paid for it), changed jobs a few times, qualified as a legal professional in 3 jurisdictions (1 supranational, 2 EU, of which UK- and I'm the only or the second French to qualify in UK 'the long way round' with sitting all UK professional exams in English, no dispensations whatsoever), owned a few homes and cars (and sold them and moved up), <etc.>

In that time, I've lived Europe, not just debated it or moaned about it as some abstract entity or concept beyond little me.

It's still there of course, but now, 23-24 years on, the wall has gone up.

To now. High rate taxpayer, company director, local investor, involved in local clubs and activities and kid's school, benefactor of a couple local charities. But feeling pretty much unwanted all the same, after some 12 months of anti-EU rethoric, the real (confirmed by today's speech) prospect of permanently lost service business, and gang-pressed into a negotiation pawn to boot by May & co. And I haven't touched ont he personals (I'm sure the bank may have a word or two to say about my sustainability as a mortgage credit risk, what with my immigration status now in the balance...City employers have now already taken to asking EU candidates to sign affidavits at interview time, engaging their personal liability to guarantee that they will still be able to reside and work in the UK if they get offered the position: how can they do that, ya f**** tools? oh well, can't apply for the job then, sorry!)

I'm sorry, but I have trouble seeing this as more than an inconvenience

Someone was posting not so long ago, that it feels like humanity is regressing at the moment. Socially at least, I think he or she is right.

Take Gene Cernan, the last man to walk on the moon in 1972, who died yesterday, and I was having these very thoughts: fast forward 45 years, and how often have we been back there? Where are our lunar colonies? More distant that ever: nothing's been about human endeavour and betterment for so long now, that people have forgotten the very notion.

You know, that's the very year I first came to this country.

 

Freely so, as a fellow European citizen empowered to do so. No job (alright, an unpaid placement lined up at Aeromed in Dino, complete fluke), no contacts, not much in the way of formal educational attainments (and none to which a Brit employer could relate howsoever), and very substantially less than the current visa-grade funds minima.

 

A beaten up BX, a case and a laptop, enough pocket change to spend a few B&B nights and not starve, some savings to live until placement end, that was it. You'd see me in the streets like that nowadays, you'd insta-badge me "another one o'dem migrants" on sight.

 

Now, yes, as you say, it wasn't that long ago.

 

But in that time, I've since married (locally, met her that year in 1993 as it happens), had a kid, changed (EU) country twice or thrice (and come back), done a degree (SHU, to become more employable in UK, EU paid for it), changed jobs a few times, qualified as a legal professional in 3 jurisdictions (1 supranational, 2 EU, of which UK- and I'm the only or the second French to qualify in UK 'the long way round' with sitting all UK professional exams in English, no dispensations whatsoever), owned a few homes and cars (and sold them and moved up), <etc.>

 

To now.

 

In that time, I've lived Europe, not just debated it or moaned about it as some abstract entity or concept beyond little me.

 

It's still there of course, but now, 23-24 years on, the wall has gone up.

I'm equally sorry, I'm still having trouble finding peace about the regressive character of the current politico-social developments.

 

Someone was posting not so long ago, that it feels like humanity is regressing at the moment. Socially at least, I think he or she is right.

 

Take Gene Cernan, the last man to walk on the moon in 1972, who died yesterday, and I was having these very thoughts: fast forward 45 years, and how often have we been back there? Where are our lunar colonies? More distant that ever: nothing's been about human endeavour and betterment for so long now, that people have forgotten the very notion.

I hope and expect that future L00b's will have similar experiences. I really do.

I don't see why we have to be EU members for things to continue to work as you describe. I see value in the UK government having the power to stop L00bII from doing as you did, but I don't think they should exercise it.

I see non-EU citizens doing the same thing, so whilst I recognise that paperwork and delays may deter people from doing as you did, I hope and expect that the paperwork and thereby the deterrent effect will be minimal.

Mmmm... whereas I have been to France and worked in IT - no qualifications needed - I know people who do hydrological modelling - no qualifications needed, and same again for engineering where the qualification is recognised EU wide...

so...?

Let's hope that's not what respect for your opponents looks like.

Let's hope that's not what respect for your opponents looks like.

Okay my bad. That was rude.

The post I was replying to was just so out there that I couldn't help myself.

You need qyualifications for some jobs. This is meant to be a surprise?

That requirement doesn't mean that Europe isn't open. These requirements are placed by employers. There is no restrictions placed by the national government.

In short - you are making a strawman argument that wont stand.

Mmmm... whereas I have been to France and worked in IT - no qualifications needed - I know people who do hydrological modelling - no qualifications needed, and same again for engineering where the qualification is recognised EU wide...

 

so...?

Mine too. And beyond the EU of course.

I've heard this before though. A lot of skilled people have this trouble, where as those with degree level qualifications do not.

A lot of "chartered" type qualifications are reciprocal or universal across the EU. That has value I think.

But effective freedom to ply one's trade across the EU has yet to be effectively extended to all the citizenry.

A ski/snowboard/mountain bike instructor moving to france will find their qualifications are not recognised.

same with a builder or a plasterer.

Despite the longstanding existence of clear legal (statutory + byelaws) provisions for it.

Swings and roundabout: professional protectionism has always existed and been kept alive and well by vested interests in each EU country. Including the UK.

Same as you, these are examples from people I personally know (not only, but also, including myself, as it happens).

Maybe someone else was better suited to the job.

At least we have the right to live, work and get the local qualification if we want to.

I would not have responded to you in the same way as I know you understand what rights we are likely to lose and what we shall retain under the new arrangements.

If you look at my posts from june you will see that I did concede gracefully when I thought my side had lost. There was no wailing.

 

I would also add that it's not "citizenship" in the traditional/national sense and I don't anticipate that there will be substantial barriers for people wanting to move around Europe post-Brexit as long as they have valid reasons.

Ahh, so you won`t be able to just live, or possibly even just visit, anywhere in Europe "just because you want to ?" That not being a valid reason ?

Do you anticipate it being as hard to move to, say, France, as it currently is to move to Australia ?