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Who's at fault here in this car crash

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View Poll Results: Who was at fault for this crash?
White car 69 39.88%
Black car 91 52.60%
Other answer 13 7.51%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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19-05-2017, 21:09   #401
kidley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *_ash_* View Post
Was that quoted at anyone kidley?
yes it was posted to a post directly above mine saying, it was the white car that crossed the line and turned into the black car. i think it may have been a post by dipper but it has been deleted.
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19-05-2017, 21:17   #402
*_ash_*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidley View Post
yes it was posted to a post directly above mine saying, it was the white car that crossed the line and turned into the black car. i think it may have been a post by dipper but it has been deleted.
oh ok. ta


edit: just checking the poll and realised I haven't voted yet It's currently 61black 60white. I hope none of the 60 don't work for my car insurance company
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Last edited by *_ash_*; 19-05-2017 at 21:20.
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19-05-2017, 21:35   #403
spikeachu
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I don't see why people are having such difficulty with this.

There are 3 lanes marked at the entry to the roundabout and there are 3 lanes going under the viaduct with corresponding destinations. As you would expect given the road markings on the entry to the roundabout.

The markings in between the entry point and the point where you go under the viaduct are for the benefit of vehicles arriving from Shepcote lane and beyond.

All 3 lanes at this entry point have the right to go under the viaduct - including the lane the white car was in and remained in.

The black car begins in a lane for the Bawtry/M1S exit and ends in a lane for the Rotherham exit.

The white car begins in a lane for the Rotherham exit and ends in a lane for the Rotherham exit.

Why is it so difficult for some people to see how this accident occurred and that blame lies entirely with the driver of the black car?
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19-05-2017, 22:00   #404
kidley
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this has got me thinking
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.41.../data=!3m1!1e3
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19-05-2017, 22:07   #405
Mayfly182
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The black car is at fault.
The results of the poll are terrifying.
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19-05-2017, 22:15   #406
RootsBooster
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I've been away from SF (and the recreational part of the internet) for several months, it's a little worrying and slightly saddening that so many people seem to have missed the clear lane markings and are blaming the white car.
Regardless of how vague or confusing the roundabout dashed lines may be, the lane markings prior to entry clearly show that the white car can turn left or stay in lane to continue forward, while the black car's lane clearly shows that it can only go straight ahead (stay in 2nd lane).
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19-05-2017, 22:32   #407
woah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RootsBooster View Post
I've been away from SF (and the recreational part of the internet) for several months, it's a little worrying and slightly saddening that so many people seem to have missed the clear lane markings and are blaming the white car.
Regardless of how vague or confusing the roundabout dashed lines may be, the lane markings prior to entry clearly show that the white car can turn left or stay in lane to continue forward, while the black car's lane clearly shows that it can only go straight ahead (stay in 2nd lane).
Agreed - what's odd is that those markings on the roundabout aren't just confusing, they're completely contradictory to the road markings on the approach. They definitely indicate that the left hand lane is designed for turning left only and not for going straight ahead.

Before 2012 the road markings on the roundabout were different, and did indicate that the left hand lane allowed the driver to go straight ahead. On that basis I think it was an intentional change in 2012 and somehow the road markings on the approach have never been updated to reflect this.

I think there's shared blame, the white car was correct to follow the road markings on the approach but should have also seen the road markings on the roundabout were different and followed the lane as directed on the roundabout. The black car made the opposite (perhaps worse) mistake in following the roundabout markings but not placing themselves in the correct lane on the approach.
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19-05-2017, 22:35   #408
Huffty_500
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Everyone going on about the lane markings are simply acting like sheep, followers. The white car should have and could have easily anticipated the black car was going under the viaduct.

Right the way from learning to drive upto professional drivers, defensive driving is taught not attacking, not banzai moves at speed. People all acting like theyve never been in the wrong lane give over. Just because the black car was doesnt mean the white car wasnt in control of the situation and could have avoided it.
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19-05-2017, 22:43   #409
spikeachu
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There's nothing wrong with the road markings. Thousands of cars traverse the roundabout correctly everyday without incident. The markings people are referring to are for the benefit of people entering the roundabout at a previous junction where both left and centre lanes can access the viaduct.

Anyone who wants to apportion any blame to the driver of the white car is entitled to their wrong opinion - just avoid using that roundabout eh?
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19-05-2017, 22:48   #410
*_ash_*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidley View Post
No, I think probably someone has pointed this out earlier, but I've not read it

I can see what you are looking at here. The black car would have been in the correct lane if coming around the roundabout, but they didn't.

This what I was saying in the earlier post to you, that the traffic lights separate this particular flow of traffic.

---------- Post added 19-05-2017 at 22:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeachu View Post
There's nothing wrong with the road markings. Thousands of cars traverse the roundabout correctly everyday without incident. The markings people are referring to are for the benefit of people entering the roundabout at a previous junction where both left and centre lanes can access the viaduct.
There is. In the approach. It is crap.

When leaving Sainsbury's south roundabout there are 2 lanes.

Do you think I'm in the wrong if I predict that the right lane is ok for Bawtry road? (3rd exit)

The first time we see a road marking (if not covered in standing traffic) is just before the left lane splits into two (there aren't any signs on the side to say what lane goes where at any point).

-

I think that's reasonable assumption since this would match most roundabout approaches.

Who on here who lives in Sheffield will be honest (apart from reg users of it) knew before this thread that of the 2 lanes, you need to be in the left of the two, to exit any of the first 4 exits, but the right lane just M1S (exit 4) or further around?
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13640 170115 0237(p) 13772 140315 2137(f) 13812 070415 2359(f)
Work out your IQ here: 100-n (when n = (total number of times following terms used in debate: 'rich richer, poor poorer','banker's bonuses','food banks') + 5 for using 'Divide and Conquer')

Last edited by *_ash_*; 19-05-2017 at 23:02. Reason: typos and clarity
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19-05-2017, 23:04   #411
spikeachu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *_ash_* View Post

There is. In the approach.

When leaving Sainsbury south roudabout there are 2 lanes.

Do you think I'm in the wrong if I predict that the right lane is for Bawtry road? (3rd exit)

The first time we see a road marking is just before the left lane splits into two (there aren't any signs on the side to say what lane goes where at any point).

-

I think that's reasonable assumption since this would match most roundabout approaches.

Who on here who lives in Sheffield (apart from reg users of it) knew before this thread that of the 2 lanes, the left one you can exit any of the first 4 exits, but the right lane just M1S (exit 4) or further around?
I was referring on the markings on the roundabout itself, which is the ones most people seem to be taking issue with and why people are suggesting that the white car should have turned onto the viaduct. I will concede that you have a 50/50 on Bawtry road until 50 yards before the entrance to the roundabout.

It doesn't really affect the incident in question, but even so, if you get the 50/50 wrong you are in the inside lane and have the option of going all the way around the roundabout or following normal safety process for changing lane on the roundabout. Yes, it's poor but it shouldn't be an accident causer.
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19-05-2017, 23:05   #412
Chez2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busdriver1 View Post
To be fair, the white car should not really be in the left lane to exit from the second exit no matter what the lane markings say. Basic common sense.
I drive round there a lot and the left lane used to be left turn only. Nobody used to take any notice and there has always been problems there. I can't remember when the marking changed to say left lane could go left or straight on. They have been like this for quite some years though.

If you were going on you wouldn't have expected the white car to keep so far to the left, almost starting to turn in the left lane on the viaduct. I know you have to have your wits about you when in that lane going either left or straight on.

Its much better now. It was awful before the traffic lights were put in. I had an 850 mini when I started driving in 1983. It was much harder to pull out there in rush hour traffic before there were traffic lights.

Edit - can anyone see the traffic lights on that clip? I can't see them. It looks like the black car was already on the roundabout so one of them must be in the wrong going through on red or both on amber.

Last edited by Chez2; 19-05-2017 at 23:07.
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19-05-2017, 23:10   #413
*_ash_*
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I edited my post for clarity, so not sure at what point you quote it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeachu View Post
I was referring on the markings on the roundabout itself, which is the ones most people seem to be taking issue with and why people are suggesting that the white car should have turned onto the viaduct. I will concede that you have a 50/50 on Bawtry road until 50 yards before the entrance to the roundabout.

It doesn't really affect the incident in question, but even so, if you get the 50/50 wrong you are in the inside lane and have the option of going all the way around the roundabout or following normal safety process for changing lane on the roundabout. Yes, it's poor but it shouldn't be an accident causer.
Yes I know. My main issue is with the approach which causes confusion. The markings on the road aren't good though. As I said in an earlier post, they've corrected that confusing lane approach on the other side. It just needs this side sorting. There should be a gantry in the early 2 lane part to give people time to get into the correct lane.

(saying that, if I was taking M1N, I would never get in the lane that the black one was, and another reason why clear their fault)
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19-05-2017, 23:19   #414
Chez2
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*ash* have you tried getting on and off at all the different exits and that roundabout. I have as a driver over the last thirty four years. There was nothing wrong with the lane the driver took off the roundabout to go on the viaduct. You can enter the viaduct on both lanes.

The traffic lights should have stopped them being able to hit each other.
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19-05-2017, 23:20   #415
spikeachu
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If you want a challenge, try the Parson Cross Asda roundabout.

Which road is straight on? Both lanes say you can go straight on but both take you to a different exit.

https://goo.gl/maps/Znq2hX6BDLP2
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Last edited by spikeachu; 19-05-2017 at 23:37.
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20-05-2017, 00:27   #416
*_ash_*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez2 View Post
*ash* have you tried getting on and off at all the different exits and that roundabout. I have as a driver over the last thirty four years. There was nothing wrong with the lane the driver took off the roundabout to go on the viaduct. You can enter the viaduct on both lanes.

The traffic lights should have stopped them being able to hit each other.
The traffic lights weren't involved in this case as they both entered from the same approach.

If you've been driving on that for 34 years then you will no doubt have seen the changes on the approach from Templebro has changed heading to Sheffield?

-

Why do you think they changed that?

That's a rhetorical question btw Chez, so I'll save you the time posting , it was because it was poorly designed, and eventually someone saw it.

-

I pointed out faults in Meadowhead and Moore Street too in here and both have been changed since - though the Meadowhead problem I could have sorted with a pot of paint rather than spending 6 million pounds moving the whole thing 8 feet to the left, and leaving it not much better now

This either leads me to believe that the council read this, or that I have an unusual infatuation with roundabout markings!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeachu View Post
If you want a challenge, try the Parson Cross Asda roundabout.

Which road is straight on? Both lanes say you can go straight on but both take you to a different exit.

https://goo.gl/maps/Znq2hX6BDLP2
Yes, good example of someone who should be fired for drawing that up. The only reason this isn't dangerous is because it's only small and everyone knows the lanes markings are rubbish. I use this one several times a day as it's in my work area and tend to protect myself and my car by straddling these lanes all the way around especially if going to Asda from Halifax Road.

(edit the new Furnival Gate roundabout was probably designed by the same person as the Asda one, as they have the same issue)
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13640 170115 0237(p) 13772 140315 2137(f) 13812 070415 2359(f)
Work out your IQ here: 100-n (when n = (total number of times following terms used in debate: 'rich richer, poor poorer','banker's bonuses','food banks') + 5 for using 'Divide and Conquer')

Last edited by *_ash_*; 20-05-2017 at 00:31.
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20-05-2017, 05:27   #417
afaceri
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It`s easy ... car at fault: white car
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20-05-2017, 10:13   #418
giraffelegs
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I don't drive but I can clearly see that the black car is in the lane which says straight ahead and the white car is in the lane which says left or straight ahead,therefore the black car was at fault it should have been in the left hand lane to turn left
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20-05-2017, 10:20   #419
Broakham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afaceri View Post
It`s easy ... car at fault: white car
It can't be that easy, you got it wrong.
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20-05-2017, 12:05   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarPig View Post
Once the black car is on the roundabout then the lane separation markings do suggest that he can go left under the viaduct. But if he had paid attention to the lane markings on his approach to the roundabout he would know that he can't turn left at all.




No, the white car didn't change lanes at all, he was in the correct lane for going straight on.

Again it is worrying that half of the voters on this thread think the white car was at fault????


There are lots of roundabouts that have inadequate lane markings once you are on the roundabout, that contradict the signage on the road on the approach. The old BnQ roundabout in Rotherham is oe example, and so is Park Sq roundabout when joining from Victoria Quays.
I don't know who is responsible for designing the lane markings on Sheffield roundabouts but I think they probably need retraining. Sheffield is far far worse for confusing lane markings than anywhere else I've driven.
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