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EU Referendum - How will you vote?

Do you think that the UK should remain a member of the EU?  

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  1. 1. Do you think that the UK should remain a member of the EU?

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      169
    • NO
      361


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My argument is that we are signed up to it because it is a condition of EU membership.
The UK signed up to the ECHR in 1951.

 

Right at the start (the UK was one of its main architects).

 

A whole 22 years before it signed up to the EU.

 

I guess you can draw your own conclusions about your argument?

 

:)

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The UK signed up to the ECHR in 1951.

 

Right at the start (the UK was one of its main architects).

 

A whole 22 years before it signed up to the EU.

 

I guess you can draw your own conclusions about your argument?

 

:)

 

Zamo, exit pursued by a bear. [Exit stage right].

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Zamo, exit pursued by a bear. [Exit stage right].

 

But of a red herring this ECHR thing. I can't see the UK withdrawing in my lifetime whatever the referendum result.

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But of a red herring this ECHR thing. I can't see the UK withdrawing in my lifetime whatever the referendum result.

 

And round and round and round we go,where it endeth,no one knows.

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The UK signed up to the ECHR in 1951.

 

Right at the start (the UK was one of its main architects).

 

A whole 22 years before it signed up to the EU.

 

I guess you can draw your own conclusions about your argument?

 

:)

 

We did sign in 1951 but for several years the government has toyed with the idea of leaving the convention because it has become so deeply unpopular with the public due to evolving interpretations by the ECHR (court), which overrule those of our own supreme court. Why haven't we left? Because the advice the government received is that it is effectively a condition of EU membership... all members being required to have signed up to it or agreeing to ratify it as soon as possible after joining.

 

The ECHR (court) is separate to the EU but all EU member states are required to sign up to the convention on which they they rule. Membership of the EU and the subordination (re matters relating to the ECHR) of sovereign nation supreme courts to the ECHR (court) go hand in hand.

 

---------- Post added 05-05-2016 at 07:37 ----------

 

But of a red herring this ECHR thing. I can't see the UK withdrawing in my lifetime whatever the referendum result.

 

We wouldn't leave without replacing it with our own version, which our own courts would rule on.

 

I don't think the ECHR (court) have achieved the right balance in their interpretations (a view probably shared by the majority in this country) and as things stand we can't hold our government to account because change (to the law and therefore the rulings) is out of their hands.

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The EU seems to have the last word on this as well, while we are still in,

 

"Reality Check verdict: If the UK wanted to stay in the EU but leave the ECHR, the European Commission would have to decide whether that meant the UK had too little respect for human rights to stay in the Union. Nobody has tried it before and lawyers disagree about what the Commission's conclusion would be."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36149798

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We did sign in 1951
So the UK isn't signed up to it "because it is a condition of EU membership". Thanks for confirming.

but for several years the government has toyed with the idea of leaving the convention because it has become so deeply unpopular with the public due to evolving interpretations by the ECHR (court), which overrule those of our own supreme court. Why haven't we left? Because the advice the government received is that it is effectively a condition of EU membership... all members being required to have signed up to it or agreeing to ratify it as soon as possible after joining.
Give me a heads-up when the UK, still in the EU or out, is actually making moves to exit the ECHR, rather than politicking away.

 

In the meantime, much ado about nothing, and an argument in the context of a Brexit discussion so redundant that it doesn't even deserve a P45.

 

Your goalpost-shifting (...so much it's looking like cable tossing) notwithstanding.

The ECHR (court) is separate to the EU but all EU member states are required to sign up to the convention on which they they rule. Membership of the EU and the subordination (re matters relating to the ECHR) of sovereign nation supreme courts to the ECHR (court) go hand in hand.
Nope, ECHR membership and EU membership are still completely apart and distinct, however you try and twist it.

 

What I explained about the UK applies to all other ECHR signatories, EU members and not, just the same.

 

If the EU disappeared tomorrow, the ECHR (Convention and Court) would still stand.

 

All the same, it's interesting to see a pro-Brexit poster arguing that supranational non-EU jurisdiction is somehow reprehensible, when most Brexiters faced with the (real) prospect of tariffs and non-tariff barriers post-Brexit run back to the WTO (which is not a jurisdiction).

 

Just like my earlier explanations about the role and function of the ECJ (wavy-handed away as you did earlier), it shows your/their understanding of international law and practice, I guess. In that context, I'm not surprised that very many Brexiters consistently fail to appreciate the international dimension of the consequences to the referendum outcome. Unsurprisingly, turns the debate into a dialogue of deafmutes.

We wouldn't leave without replacing it with our own version, which our own courts would rule on.
We have had a Human Rights Act since 1988, no need to replace anything.

I don't think the ECHR (court) have achieved the right balance in their interpretations (a view probably shared by the majority in this country) and as things stand we can't hold our government to account because change (to the law and therefore the rulings) is out of their hands.
Still more misinformation and misrepresentation.

 

I'd suggest that you look into the interrelationship of the ECHR (supranational) and the HRA 1988 (national). If you can be @rsed and are not just scrambling around for the sake of being argumentative, that is.

 

I'm not going to bother explaining it further, in view of your consistent wavy-handing of my earlier explanations (factual and provided objectively and in good faith, for the sake of informing the debate) as I'd just be wasting my time.

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The ECHR thing is definitely a red herring. The referendum is not about our membership of it.

 

On other matters though I have to admit I'm wavering. The gusto with which Cameron has supported TTIP this week makes me nervous. It's the same very business-like approach the Tories take with other unpopular policies. It's the approach they use when they try to avoid and undermine scrutiny.

 

The approach to TTIP is the focus now. For us I want the EU to be a primarily trade body. If TTIP is the future then I'm not sure we want to be fully part of it.

 

I'm now 50:50 leave:stay

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The ECHR thing is definitely a red herring. The referendum is not about our membership of it.

 

On other matters though I have to admit I'm wavering. The gusto with which Cameron has supported TTIP this week makes me nervous. It's the same very business-like approach the Tories take with other unpopular policies. It's the approach they use when they try to avoid and undermine scrutiny.

 

The approach to TTIP is the focus now. For us I want the EU to be a primarily trade body. If TTIP is the future then I'm not sure we want to be fully part of it.

 

I'm now 50:50 leave:stay

 

Isn't the TTP thing under serious threat now because various European countries are waking up to the threat it poses to their sovereignty?

 

People are casting a cynical eye over it and it may die a death.

 

How more likely would a British Govt, unencumbered by European concerns, rush to embrace TTIP? I'd rather trust a coalition of European Governments and their populations than Cameron.

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Isn't the TTP thing under serious threat now because various European countries are waking up to the threat it poses to their sovereignty?

 

People are casting a cynical eye over it and it may die a death.

 

How more likely would a British Govt, unencumbered by European concerns, rush to embrace TTIP? I'd rather trust a coalition of European Governments and their populations than Cameron.

 

Very true, I'd trust the EU to stand up against the multi-nationals over our national government.

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Isn't the TTP thing under serious threat now because various European countries are waking up to the threat it poses to their sovereignty?

 

People are casting a cynical eye over it and it may die a death.

 

How more likely would a British Govt, unencumbered by European concerns, rush to embrace TTIP? I'd rather trust a coalition of European Governments and their populations than Cameron.

 

Yes that's another way of looking at it. If the other EU countries scupper TTIP then the EU is where I'd want us to be.

 

Like I said it's making me very nervous. Cameron's demeanour has all the hallmarks of a Tory bang this thing in at all costs mission. That generally means whatever it is they're up to isn't good.

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How more likely would a British Govt, unencumbered by European concerns, rush to embrace TTIP? I'd rather trust a coalition of European Governments and their populations than Cameron.

 

Very true, I'd trust the EU to stand up against the multi-nationals over our national government.

 

Then you're mad. You can at least get rid of our national governments, or pressure them through the media to change policy.

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