Fund the NHS adequately

What on earth are you talking about. Do you serious think that the NHS in its so called heyday did not have managers?

 

They may well not have been called that by job title but the organisation was filled was Directors, Administrators, Matrons, Heads of xxxx, Chiefs of xxxx.

 

It was also not the flabby oversubscribed mess it is now with dozens and dozens of additional minority community specialist services, non-essential healthcare centres, government initiative programmes, support services and partnership projects which the organisation has to deal with now.

 

Lets not get all romantic about this. Just like people who bang on about the "glory days" of British Rail. There was none. Its was just as badly run, overfunded, overprotected and taken for granted as it is now.

The huge increase in administrative staff developed after Margaret Thatcher decided to make the NHS 'competitive' and set up the internal market, so that rather than being a cooperative enterprise, one NHS trust was set up against another, buying and selling services.

This is what the NHS managers spend their time doing. If it is now a 'flabby, oversubscribed mess, then you don't need any more proof that Thatcher's plans did not work, and neither do its many managers.

The huge increase in administrative staff developed after Margaret Thatcher decided to make the NHS 'competitive' and set up the internal market, so that rather than being a cooperative enterprise, one NHS trust was set up against another, buying and selling services.

 

This is what the NHS managers spend their time doing. If it is now a 'flabby, oversubscribed mess, then you don't need any more proof that Thatcher's plans did not work, and neither do its many managers.

If only Labour could have reversed the trend when they took power in 1997:

The Labour Party opposed all the changes until they got into power. Then, other than abolishing GP Fund Holding, they embraced the new order like a hungry python with a pie.

 

Blair took competition to heights undreamed of by the Tories, involving the independent sector and wasting £millions on inefficient contracts.

http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/blogs/tom-goodfellow/what-was-thatchers-legacy-for-the-nhs

The rest of that article, written by a doctor is well worth a read:

But to return to the start of it all, I am fairly neutral about Griffiths. The NHS needs to be managed properly and in many cases I think we are under rather than over managed. My own radiology department is a highly complex £20 million p.a. business yet we run on just a handful of fairly junior managers.

 

My colleagues and I know exactly what to do in order to transform our business into a modern thriving service delivering high quality timely clinical imaging and intervention. But our managers and clinical director have neither the ability nor the authority to make the necessary strategic decisions to initiate change which is what Griffiths wanted. All we can do is stand at the edge of the playing field, waving our arms and shouting “please listen to us”, but fairly confident that no body will! I emphasise that this is not a critique of our trust executive who are as much strangled by system as we are.

I hate to discuss anything without the appropriate knowledge so I can only put an opinion regarding this thread about the NHS. But I think if all of the comments on this thread was to to be looked at and then considered,I am certain that there is a good amount of validity in most comments , and there are probably more equally valid ideas that have not been mentioned.Now in my life I have known nurses ,doctors,managers and and others shall I say in admin ( this covers everyone else.So regardless of political persuasion,I see problems that do not seem to be covered by any comment made on here.I talk frequently to my neighbour who is a long standing Staff nurse ,then there is my better half who has been at the NHS all her working life and after having a chat to both ,in my opinion the problems go a lot deeper than the usual funding ,training ,etc.

Nepotism, despots, bullying, contractual inneficiencies,are just a few instances that I have picked up on and there are many others.On a personal note I want the NHS to be what it was intended for and to flourish.

Last year we had a referendum,and I really think it time that we had one for the future of the NHS.If the answer was no ,I daresay that there is some bod on here saying what country our new NHS model should be based upon.If it was yes then it will certainly mean that everyone buys into this and do whatever is necessary for it to be fit for purpose.By the same token any government of the day that was to undertake this monumental task of re building this project must be well aware that it needs construction from the top to bottom and to be devoid of any political party

The huge increase in administrative staff developed after Margaret Thatcher decided to make the NHS 'competitive' and set up the internal market, so that rather than being a cooperative enterprise, one NHS trust was set up against another, buying and selling services.

 

This is what the NHS managers spend their time doing. If it is now a 'flabby, oversubscribed mess, then you don't need any more proof that Thatcher's plans did not work, and neither do its many managers.

The problem with managers is not that the NHS doesn't need managers, it's that they give administrative assistants posh titles who then instead of actually doing a job and helping other staff, then think their job is to go around creating work for other people. It's a problem of massive proportions all over the public and private sector. There are many more people with the title of 'manager' than there are people who actually manage.

On the other hand, my mother was a manager of a community NHS wheelchair (posture and mobility) service. She was actually a practicing clinical specialist (occupational therapist) who was also responsible for organising premises, supply & maintenance contacts, managing clinical, clerical, technical staff etc as well as seeing patients. She was on the lowest NHS management band. It's fair to say she had a lot to manage. There was supposed to be one senior manager (overseeing community services; OT, physio, nursing etc), but that position was so difficult that they couldn't get anyone to fill it for more than a few months throughout the 10+ years my mum was managing the service. At later points she was managing neighbouring authorities' services, in addition, for no more pay. She was reporting directly to the chief executive of the trust. No middle managers to speak of at all.

The problem with managers is not that the NHS doesn't need managers, it's that they give administrative assistants posh titles who then instead of actually doing a job and helping other staff, then think their job is to go around creating work for other people. It's a problem of massive proportions all over the public and private sector. There are many more people with the title of 'manager' than there are people who actually manage.

 

On the other hand, my mother was a manager of a community NHS wheelchair (posture and mobility) service. She was actually a practicing clinical specialist (occupational therapist) who was also responsible for organising premises, supply & maintenance contacts, managing clinical, clerical, technical staff etc as well as seeing patients. She was on the lowest NHS management band. It's fair to say she had a lot to manage. There was supposed to be one senior manager (overseeing community services; OT, physio, nursing etc), but that position was so difficult that they couldn't get anyone to fill it for more than a few months throughout the 10+ years my mum was managing the service. At later points she was managing neighbouring authorities' services, in addition, for no more pay. She was reporting directly to the chief executive of the trust. No middle managers to speak of at all.

I agree.

As for your mother's situation, it's a lot more common than you would think, and it really annoys me to death. These managers that do next to nothing paid 6 figure salaries, while people who know the job inside out, work dam hard and do it really well, get next to nothing. It's true of so many industries.

How have we allowed this to happen? And what can be done to improve the situation? Please please can we start to shed staff from the top, rather than the bottom? In many cases they would hardly be missed, and the savings would be far greater. Of course, they aren't going to sack themselves (or their friends,) so we need an outside body to do it.

Until this starts to happen we're pretty much doomed. No wonder productivity is so low.

It seems to be more of a problem in Britain than elsewhere. Is it?

Like pay bosses 166 Million in bonuses, while frontline staff face pay cuts and are facing leaving, bloody ridicularse

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527

Like pay bosses 166 Million in bonuses, while frontline staff face pay cuts and are facing leaving, bloody ridicularse

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527

A disgrace which will go unchallenged.

I agree.

 

As for your mother's situation, it's a lot more common than you would think, and it really annoys me to death. These managers that do next to nothing paid 6 figure salaries, while people who know the job inside out, work dam hard and do it really well, get next to nothing. It's true of so many industries.

 

How have we allowed this to happen? And what can be done to improve the situation? Please please can we start to shed staff from the top, rather than the bottom? In many cases they would hardly be missed, and the savings would be far greater. Of course, they aren't going to sack themselves (or their friends,) so we need an outside body to do it.

 

Until this starts to happen we're pretty much doomed. No wonder productivity is so low.

 

It seems to be more of a problem in Britain than elsewhere. Is it?

Well, you're bound to think it's worse here than anywhere else as you have such a low opinion of this country.

We want people to go to university and marginalise those who don't. So they have to be managers once they come out - and as has been rightly pointed out - half can't manage. People at the top aren't going to sack themselves. Outside body to over see all of it? What, like the government? Behave.

In other news the lib dems came out on Monday with the bold idea of coming out with a specific tax to fund the NHS (which technically NI should pay for) which was hidden well inside the papers. Given that NI would need to be at least trebled to fund the NHS and social care, should we do it?

Like pay bosses 166 Million in bonuses, while frontline staff face pay cuts and are facing leaving, bloody ridicularse

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527

VERY old news, mel, but I've no doubt you checked that prior to posting? Of course you did(n't)

VERY old news, mel, but I've no doubt you checked that prior to posting? Of course you did(n't)

But complain all we like about the NHS, Foriegners...etc etc has it changed? are we still shoveling millions and billions down the wrong chutes? is it not part of the problem of why the NHS is in dire straits (no not the band) NOW?

Well, you're bound to think it's worse here than anywhere else as you have such a low opinion of this country.

 

We want people to go to university and marginalise those who don't. So they have to be managers once they come out - and as has been rightly pointed out - half can't manage. People at the top aren't going to sack themselves. Outside body to over see all of it? What, like the government? Behave.

 

In other news the lib dems came out on Monday with the bold idea of coming out with a specific tax to fund the NHS (which technically NI should pay for) which was hidden well inside the papers. Given that NI would need to be at least trebled to fund the NHS and social care, should we do it?

I do not have a low opinion of this country, I love it. But a problem can't be fixed until it is at least acknowledged. Short termism is also rife in political circles because there's a good chance they won't be around in 5 years to see a job through. We need more cross party long term planning.

I treasure the NHS, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. It won't survive unlesss it undergoes rigorous investigations into how it can be improved and developed.

I treasure the NHS, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. It won't survive unlesss it undergoes rigorous investigations into how it can be improved and developed.

the rich syphoning off most of the money wont allow it to survive