Have the left got it wrong?

Labour seem(?) as if they're soft on welfare spending.

The Conservatives seem(?) as if they're soft on tax avoidance.

As voters we must choose, but my guess is that most voters don't want to see anybody getting a free ride. We want to see a fair system that supports those in genuine need and where nobody is free to avoid their responsibility to pay fair taxes.

I will be voting Labour, but that doesn't mean I agree with all their policies.

I'm kinda pleased that the National Debt is seen as a serious issue, and not one dismissed as lightly as writer Will Hutton does regularly.

I disagree, because you're omitting the global financial context, and this is crucial omission at this time - see further below.

 

That:

is biased hindsight.

 

Insofar as the UK's national debt is concerned, the core issue post-2008 has been, and remains, the enduring and historically low interest rates: the left has long argued that we should spend-spend-spend in a Keynesian orgy of infrastructural stimulus, the right has opted for slowing and steadily curbing the deficit.

 

If the interplay of global financial markets starts to ratchet interest rates up (and this outcome is getting ever more likely and closer in time), guess which countries are going to thank their lucky stars that they have at least started making a dent in their VISA statement, the UK's first amongst them?

It's not biased but it is hindsight. That's the good thing about looking back and assessing what went wrong and what went right.

But let's say if you would allow yourself the benefit of hindsight to accurately assess the situation, you'd see that Osborne has applied the greatest fiscal stimulus ever in a parliament, has doubled the national debt and still left us with a £80bn a year deficit.

Osborne is arguably the most Keynesian chancellor ever - he simply has not stopped spend, spend, spending. Don't try and argue they are balancing the books. They aren't and by every measure he set himself in 2010 Osborne has failed.

Its the way they expect the poor to pay the debt of thats the problem.

In what way do they expect "the poor" to "pay off the debt"? How much tax do you think "the poor" pay?

In what way do they expect "the poor" to "pay off the debt"? How much tax do you think "the poor" pay?

The poor and the lower- to middle- classes are paying for it in terms of cuts to services and / or increased costs such higher fees for a University education and a higher retirement age.

Do you want to work until you're seventy?

No, me neither.

Do you want to work until you're seventy?

 

No, me neither.

Hmmm ... I'm still working out how I feel about this. The fact of the matter is I've changed jobs too many times and have a crap pension entitlement. I'm envious of the friends I have who have worked in the public sector and have retired in their late 50's. I used to work with somebody who retired at 55 and was still running marathons. In good health he'll probably be retired for more years than he worked.

I'm of a similar age and my projected pension is less than £5000 per year (much less).

I've earned a decent salary throughout my working life and have paid a lot of tax, but I'm a very long way behind public sector workers in terms of pension entitlement.

So, despite being very much on the left politically, I'm not averse to seeing reductions in the budget deficit first and the national debt second. If that means raising the age of retirement for public sector workers, well, I know that won't be popular among my friends (and my partner), but I feel that we'll be working towards some semblance of fairness.

I have no doubt I'll need to work until I'm 70 or more.

Hmmm ... I'm still working out how I feel about this. The fact of the matter is I've changed jobs too many times and have a crap pension entitlement. I'm envious of the friends I have who have worked in the public sector and have retired in their late 50's. I used to work with somebody who retired at 55 and was still running marathons. In good health he'll probably be retired for more years than he worked.

 

I'm of a similar age and my projected pension is less than £5000 per year (much less).

 

I've earned a decent salary throughout my working life and have paid a lot of tax, but I'm a very long way behind public sector workers in terms of pension entitlement.

 

So, despite being very much on the left politically, I'm not averse to seeing reductions in the budget deficit first and the national debt second. If that means raising the age of retirement for public sector workers, well, I know that won't be popular among my friends (and my partner), but I feel that we'll be working towards some semblance of fairness.

 

I have no doubt I'll need to work until I'm 70 or more.

Trouble is people age at different rates. So quite a few will not be physically capable of working until they're 70. And that's not because they've not taken care of themselves, it's simply genetics. Things start to go wrong as you get older, and there's nothing you can do about it. What are they going to do?

There is also going to be a massive problem in future with people who haven't had regular employment, or been low waged and haven't been able to save for a pension. With no property to sell either, they are going to be seriously struggling. Will the state even be there to help them?

I'm still working out my position on this. Where people need to retire early due to ill health, well that's one thing, but to retire as a matter of course because you've served 30 or 35 years well that's something else. I have a brother who's a policeman. He's 5 years younger than me but will probably retire 10 years earlier than me. He's already talking about it.

I'm a socialist at heart but isn't socialism about fairness? I feel as if I'm paying my taxes for others to retire early. And as far as I know, younger people are going to get an even rougher deal when it comes to pensions.

The state must be strong but so must each one of us. I feel a little re-balancing is required.

I'm a socialist at heart but isn't socialism about fairness? I feel as if I'm paying my taxes for others to retire early. And as far as I know, younger people are going to get an even rougher deal when it comes to pensions.

 

But how much have you paid into your pensions?

Many public sector workers pay 10% or thereabouts, and that figure is added to by their employer. Do you do the same. Does your employer?

Most public sector pension schemes are self financing anyway, especially if they are viewed over a 40 or 50 year time frame.

Quantitative easing has eaten plenty of your taxes. That supports those who already have plenty. Aim your fire there, not at nurses' pensions.

The left criticise the right for "austerity", for reducing the budget deficit with the intention of working towards budget surplus and bringing down the national debt.

 

Will Hutton in The Observer comments that [reducing the national debt] "is an obsession motivated by ideological animus against public services and public provision."

 

He also says "Britain's national debt is comfortably affordable today - even moderate by historical standards. To present it as economic enemy number one is just wrong."

 

I'm on the left politically, but isn't this short term thinking?

 

The more we spend, the more it gives us the illusion we are rich in the short run. However, the act of spending more than we earn will impoverish and therefore disempower us.

 

Surely socialists want a powerful state that doesn't answer to the capitalists?

 

Who wants the state to be in debt to the money lenders?

I doubt you are, your just playing devils advocate?

The poor and the lower- to middle- classes are paying for it in terms of cuts to services and / or increased costs such higher fees for a University education and a higher retirement age.

 

Do you want to work until you're seventy?

 

No, me neither.

Agree with your first part Joker - it's always the poorer off that pay!

Work till 70? Well I worked till 75 but that was my choice as I enjoyed what I did.

:)

---------- Post added 01-04-2015 at 09:51 ----------

Things start to go wrong as you get older, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Too true Anna! I had to stop work at 75 due to ill health! Things start to malfunction/drop off/go wrong etc!!!

Oh and NO lovely private pension at the end of it, or final salary pension!

:)

NO lovely private pension at the end of it

That was your choice though. You could have saved for your own lovely private pension, out of your earnings.