English Culture -

noseyrosie · 13-03-2004, 00:15

"There's a lot of celebration of English culture (as in traditional, i n the sense that St George's day should represent) everywhere, it's just sad that mainstream culture has rejected it in favour of football hooliganism and clubbing. Anyway, I'm going to start a thread on it now!"

I just posted that on another thread. Anyway I was wondering what you all thought about this? i'm actively involved in traditional music and dance in Sheffield as well as across the country, and I am amazed at the lack of tolerance, and rejection, of the history of our country. Other countries (name me just about any other European country, among others) embrace their traditional music, song, dance, etc, and the English just reject it and even mock it. Anyway...comments?

Grissom · 13-03-2004, 01:44

Are we having a forum Maypole dance ?

Terry Wogan has much to answer for

Baldyshef · 13-03-2004, 02:25

Weve been taught to be ashamed of our culture and to express any interest in it is akin to some kind of evil racist nationalism.

max · 13-03-2004, 11:03

Quote:

Originally posted by noseyrosie
"There's a lot of celebration of English culture (as in traditional, i n the sense that St George's day should represent) everywhere, it's just sad that mainstream culture has rejected it in favour of football hooliganism and clubbing. Anyway, I'm going to start a thread on it now!"

I just posted that on another thread. Anyway I was wondering what you all thought about this? i'm actively involved in traditional music and dance in Sheffield as well as across the country, and I am amazed at the lack of tolerance, and rejection, of the history of our country. Other countries (name me just about any other European country, among others) embrace their traditional music, song, dance, etc, and the English just reject it and even mock it. Anyway...comments?

I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

Mo · 13-03-2004, 11:12

This is one that always puzzles me.

On one hand we are actively encouraged to embrace racial and cultural integration to the extent that in the process we risk our own customs being watered down or lost. Any positive attempt to promote our own culture will be met by cries of 'racist' and therefore seen as uncool.

Whereas, other races entering our country are actively encouraged to cling on to their culture at all costs, so much so in my opinion that it inhibits real integtration.

Moon Maiden · 13-03-2004, 11:18

I have complained about this before. It is damned annoying that our kids can learn about everyone elses culture but their own.

Then we get people saying that the UK has no culture of it's own, that we are a mongrel nation. The fact is we have assimilated everything we have ever come in contact with and made it ours - we are the borg resistence is futile! *ahem* sorry.

There is a large proportion of the population that love British heritage and all things English - we just have to be quiet about it should political correct police arrest or sue us for being intolerant towards every bugger else.

Moon

gizmo · 13-03-2004, 13:37

Quote:

Originally posted by max
I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

The Enid Blyton books were altered to suit the sensetivities of other races,these are books that generations grew up reading.

The gollywogs taken off the golden shred jars,did anyone actually manage to collect the full set of instrument players.

When my kids come home from school with things they have made to represent religious festivals from other countries and races,i am pleased they are learning such things. This is then cancelled out by the refusal of the parents of the kids from other races/religions to allow them to take part in ours(easter/christmas etc)

we are being forced to accept others beliefs and way of life with open arms while having our own identity watered down.

try hoisting the george cross in your garden and see how long it is before someone finds it racially offensive and makes you take it down.
i freely accept everyones right to be who or what they want to be,
as long as the small print to them doing so doesnt include a clause preventing me from doing the same in case it offends them

saxon51 · 13-03-2004, 13:52

We've been here before with the British Red Cross issue. Something about them not being allowed to sell Christmas cards in their shops, and an inclination the remove the red cross logo altogether cos it is OFFENSIVE to non Christians.

Imagine therefore a Christian in a Muslim country having the audacity to complain that the CRESCENT is offending them, and could it be removed please?

Then again, is it these other cultures who are trying to enforce our loss of identity, or do-gooding Christians who are doing it in the mistaken belief that this is what the Muslims want?

noseyrosie · 13-03-2004, 18:01

Quote:

Originally posted by max
I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

For example, I just found this: that I wrote a few years ago (so forgive the juvenility of the writing style) for a local folk music magazine. It came from the heart, and I really still believe the same thing. Ok, so you may laugh at folk music (not YOU, but you in the general sense) and dance, but to laugh at it is to laugh at your own ancestors.

I have never, ever been accused of being racist in terms of keep the traditions alive, and (for me, anyway) that is certainly not the issue. The issue is that British folk music is not taught in schools whereas, for example, Italian classical and American jazz are. I'm not condoning the teaching of music from other cultures, in fact I play Swedish, French, American appalachian, Bulgarian(the list goes on)music myself. I'm just eternally mystified by the complete (for want of a better word, believe me!) ignorance in Britain...no, strike that, ENGLAND, of the traditons that their own ancestors created.

But, you know, if they'd rather listen to 'DJ Faceless feat. Random Blonde', let them.

PS- I really hope noone takes any of this in the wrong way, I just get really stressed about this!

Moon Maiden · 13-03-2004, 19:44

A lady came into my shop today who does folk dancing - Mr Fox on Langsett??

Very nice lady wonderful conversation and I have foudn a whole new area of Sheffield Folk scene I didn't even know existed!

Anyways - conversation has led to me considering hoisting a large English flag above me shop door for St. Georges Day - 23rd April!!!!

Moon

saxon51 · 13-03-2004, 19:48

Careful not to offend now MM!!!

billycotton · 13-03-2004, 22:31

We are not allowed to celebrate our history it's not politicaly allowed anymore.
Please dont offend our masters by loving your culture and country it's just not aceptable anymore.

little spiky · 13-03-2004, 23:10

I'm involved with the proposed Sheffield Folk Festival (due to happen later this year hopefully!) and as part of that I want to try and collect together some of Sheffield's traditions, in song, stories and dance. I don't know quite how I'm going to do it yet, but I know that there's a wealth of tradition out there, and there's a lot to be found in and around Sheffield and South Yorkshire because we seem to be good at stuff like that, despite the fact that we all try and pretend that we're not! Just think of all the songs you used to sing at school, or that your parents, or grandparents used to sing to you, or games you used to play, old stories that people have told you - its all part of our heritage, and I think we should shouting louder about it before the memories disappear completely!
Spiky

p.s. if anyone's got any thoughts concerning Sheffield traditions, knows any old local songs, stories about music and dancing etc. in Shefifeld, can you let me know, please!!!! Ta!

little spiky · 13-03-2004, 23:15

p.p.s. one thing that made me really happy last year was hearing about the carolling tradition that they still uphold at the north side of the city - out towards Stocksbridge - where for a couple of weeks before Christmas lots of people, mostly men, get together in various pubs and practice traditional christmas songs, and then on Christmas Day/Boxing Day they go from farm to farm round the area as a group, stopping at each one for a sherry and a sing. Fantastic!!! Long may it last. (-:

t020 · 14-03-2004, 00:24

It's true that we have many cultures thrust upon us which we are expected to embrace and learn about or else be labelled ignorant racists, while at the same time the people from other cultures do little to learn about the culture of England. It is also true that openly displaying pride in our country is seen as racist nationalism. I don't blame the people from other cultures as I don't think they give a damn if they see Christmas cards or English people being proud of England... I blame the PC brigade.... the very ones who will flame me down for this post. The do-gooder, busy bodies who are ruining this country.

tslogf74 · 14-03-2004, 09:46

A lot of good points made here. The Union Flag - symbol of Britain or the BNP?

There's a lot about our history that we shouldn't be proud of, but probably a lot we should too.

Thanks Moon for reminding me what day St George's Day is. I'll be celebrating St Pat's on Wednesday (any excuse!) but had forgotten that we have a patron saint of our own country.

Phanerothyme · 14-03-2004, 11:01

Quote:

Originally posted by max
I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

Didn't you know Max - it is now illegal to express Englishness in any form due to the 'incitement to racial haterd' laws

To be honest, I think that the English, more so than the British, have successfully exported their culture and beliefs to about 3 quarters of the world, and their language to all of it.

England's gift to the world is English - a fantastically versatile and well stocked language with a looseness of syntax and grammar that enables it to be learnt within about 20 minutes to a sufficient degree to be understood.

Ironically enough, English is the lingua franca of the world.

And this substrate of English language means that ideas and expressions of Englishness and English culture can permeate the globe through anglophone channels in a matter of minutes. Music - news media - literature - digital content - art, all English and all over the planet.
The Americans have done much to pay for this.

So when we look to other cultures, languages and so on, it is to look outside the sea of Englishness in which the world swims. Despite the mounting prima facie evidence, England is still a country of the open minded and the xenophilic (forgive the neologism, but its a logical reflection of xenophobic) with a strong internationalist outlook and hence a much stronger interest in exoculture than a nation struggling to establish itself. It is a measure of how secure the English are in their identity that they do not feel the need to constantly reinforce it with ritual and tradition IMO.

saxon51 · 14-03-2004, 11:04

Well said Phan..............I think

tslogf74 · 14-03-2004, 11:06

Wow! I agree with the bits of that I understood :~). Thanks.

Rich · 14-03-2004, 13:37

Quote:

Originally posted by t020
It's true that we have many cultures thrust upon us which we are expected to embrace and learn about or else be labelled ignorant racists, while at the same time the people from other cultures do little to learn about the culture of England. It is also true that openly displaying pride in our country is seen as racist nationalism. I don't blame the people from other cultures as I don't think they give a damn if they see Christmas cards or English people being proud of England... I blame the PC brigade.... the very ones who will flame me down for this post. The do-gooder, busy bodies who are ruining this country.

And people who don't live in Eccleshall