Some food for thought there.
I don't want to feel backed into a corner by this guy on the "maybe" he'll use me.
I have contacts and databases that I know will be of great value to him so I would hope that he's be open to negotiation but it doesn't seem this way.
I have a couple of days next week where as of yet I have no work so I might think about negotiating a minimal amount and proving that I am worth the money.
I am doing some free stuff for another guy but he is building my website for me so this I don't mind at all - an he is passing my details on to all his contacts.
Hmmmm, it's a tricky one, I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.
It's business trickery and a common one - don't fall for it. These type feed off people who they know are trying to win their long term custom and will more than likely milk you.
If they have poor cash flow then that says they cannot afford to sub out that work and should do it themselves. It also means they are not yet viable and therefore there is a clear sign they are not going to be in a position to pay you for some time to come. If they are having problems, they will take what freebies they can get. That's my opinion.
If they do not value you, walk away. Either they need what you sell, or they don't it's that simple. My customers are people who want to pay me. My customers are happy to pay me the whole amount for my website design upfront. Fine if they cannot afford to or have their own policies for different terms, but everyone wants me to pay them up front when I buy something, so likewise I do the same. If it's someone I know very well and its a small amount, maybe they can pay after the work is done, but either you trust that person or you don't. Either you want that person to do work for you, or you don't.
I would advise that you concentrate on giving your 'freebies' as discounts off your normal prices to several people, rather than one chunk of free time to one person.
Or say, if you buy 5 hrs, you get 5hrs free (or however you sell your service).
You need to have confidence in yourself in order for others to have confidence in you as a supplier, so stick to your guns.
A business friend of mine has this phrase for his potential customers 'BIOFO' - Buy it of **** off! A bit harsh, but you get my meaning. Don't let tyre kickers and spongers drag you down.
I am sending you a PM so I dont go off topic here about your website.
Bespoke Website Design (up to 12 pages) from £795 + VAT full optimised including 12 months hosting, 12 months site maintenance and 3 month's SEO all included. This offer is available until 10/12/2009.
I have done a training session for free before to get me in somewhere or just to give me an opportunity to try something new. Last time they paid me anyway and I got more work out of it.
Sounds like they are trying it on. Is there nothing you could trade with them?
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The halmark of a truly free man is to not believe in anything (Tom Robbins).
the 'work for free now as a foot in the door with our company' promise, very rarely translates into real paid work. I would advise that you proceed with extreme caution. Once you have set a precident, they will most likely exploit your willingness as much as they can, then move onto the next person who wants a foot in the door.
I have worked for free in the past, but always on my own terms. For example, CD covers and flyers for mate's bands or for something that I have an interest in.
If it is something that you really think would be beneficial, then I would suggest you work out a written contract with them that defines exactly what you will do, your set hours per week and a timescale that introduces payment. If they refuse to do this, then don't do the work. You would be much better off using the time to court paying clients.
Even then, I still think that they should pay you something, even a discounted rate. Everyone works to pay their bills and once my mortgage lender and utility supplyers offer me free services, then I may consider working for free!
In my experience, it is always the customers that pay the least, that demand the most!
If there is a clear win-win in doing a freebie, that's a different case. I do free internet marketing courses but only for not-for-profit type organisations and it has a value to me. Not least, that I really enjoy it and the testimonials are invaluable too.
I know the Lord said Give and you shall receive, but i'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to a business scenario!
Bespoke Website Design (up to 12 pages) from £795 + VAT full optimised including 12 months hosting, 12 months site maintenance and 3 month's SEO all included. This offer is available until 10/12/2009.
What I would be doing for free is offering my secretarial / PA / Sales services for an agreed number of hours - in the hope that if successful he would contract me for a long term contract.
With regards to the trade off with them - he is offering me an office at his premises which is great however I don't need it, the whole idea of doing what I do is to be based from home.
Having had a really good think about it, I'm going to offer hima heavily discounted rate for the first week - if he really wants to use me and thinks it's worth while, then he will pay.
I can spend my time touting for paying business if I don't get the work!
I do my good dead sponsoring a charity footy team, perhaps its time to start being a bit more ruthless?
Slightly off topic, as you don't sound like you're an intern, but some of the stories on this website about the perils of working for free make for interesting reading: Interns Anonymous
What I would be doing for free is offering my secretarial / PA / Sales services for an agreed number of hours - in the hope that if successful he would contract me for a long term contract.
With regards to the trade off with them - he is offering me an office at his premises which is great however I don't need it, the whole idea of doing what I do is to be based from home.
Having had a really good think about it, I'm going to offer hima heavily discounted rate for the first week - if he really wants to use me and thinks it's worth while, then he will pay.
I can spend my time touting for paying business if I don't get the work!
I do my good dead sponsoring a charity footy team, perhaps its time to start being a bit more ruthless?
If you particularly want to put your own time into working and gaining no financial benefit, why not do voluntary work for a small local charity (one whose other staff don't take a salary either)? Not for a commercial enterprise whereby the boss is saving/pocketing £x/hour for every unpaid hour you work.
If he REALLY wanted to give you a trial, he could take you on for a (properly paid) period, and 'let you go' after the first hour/day/week if he wasn't impressed so he wouldn't actually be risking much at all.
Trua, I can't blame the guy, I'd try the same. I do spend a lot of time organinsing events for Hope City FC so that side of things - I feel like I am doing my bit. This was more about getting an established customer base and good word of mouth.
Having just had a quick look at the internship website, I can get a grasp of how they feel but I suppose the reward for me is that Elite Admin is MY business so I get out what I put in.
Having read through the whole thread, and seen what you do, I'm inclined to believe you're not going to benefit by working for free for this company. What do you do that nobody else does? If you had a unique product which people may need a bit of convincing to use, then I could see the benefit in working for free to put the idea across, but if you're offering secretarial/admin services, he can just move onto the next newbie in the field who'll work for nothing when he's had his freebie from you
don't forget, the offer of a desk in his office is something you can easily be persuaded to abandon once he's had what he wants from you
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I think the main reason he wants to use me is because of the contacts I have within the house building and construction industry - that's invaluable. This thread has helped me make the decision that if he really does want me - and the contacts I have - he will pay.
I'm meeting him tomorrow so I will explain this to him then, it's just difficult as a new young business to not try and use each opportunity but maybe sometimes you have to pass on these?
Thanks for all your input, it's good to know and get the experience of others that have perhaps had the same dilemas!
Indizine - thanks for the input into the offers ideas, I'm having some put on my website for Credit Control services as this is a part of my job that I really enjoy.
Some food for thought there.
I don't want to feel backed into a corner by this guy on the "maybe" he'll use me.
I have contacts and databases that I know will be of great value to him so I would hope that he's be open to negotiation but it doesn't seem this way.
I have a couple of days next week where as of yet I have no work so I might think about negotiating a minimal amount and proving that I am worth the money.
I am doing some free stuff for another guy but he is building my website for me so this I don't mind at all - an he is passing my details on to all his contacts.
Hmmmm, it's a tricky one, I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.
I wouldn't do it. If you have information that is of value to him, then he will need to pay you, or someone else for the service.
In my experience, some companies are happy to say we can't afford to pay you yet, then spend the money on something else. You have worked hard for your information; why should you give your services for nothing?
stick to your guns and maybe he will end up paying you to do the work. If not, it's not a mutually valuable relationship is it?
People are very ruthless when it comes to business, especially right now, more so in the building trade.
Yes, I know nothing about this person or the company to make such judgement but I've seen it happened many times before to know better not to give anything away certaintly not for nothing.
They stand to gain everything and you stand to lose everything.
You are disposable once they have their paws on that list.
Who approached who here?
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I got the disk full message when downloading http://*.*
When you point 1 finger at someone else, you're pointing 3 at yourself. Think about that when you want to blame someone.
I know I've been employed in the past for 'information' not relating to the job, but for my contacts and knowledge of the rail industry. That person was fair enough to pay me for the actual job I was doing at the time though!
I would work for free under certain circumstances - eg I would expect to be able to offer a previous client I have a good relationship with a couple of days work in his office in return for experience with software I know they have which would be beneficial for me to have to gain further contracts elsewhere
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Prizes kindly donated by Next, John Lewis, Lush, Ancol, Burns and Buyagift.com
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Just thought I would quickly update this thread.
I just had a meeting with the company in question. It went ok and I explained that I too needed a healthy cash flow and that I couldn't work for free.
They were very nice about it and I can't blame them for trying however I don't think I'll be getting much work out of them for a while!
Reading between the lines they wanted a PA, wanted to pay nothing and the contacts and knowledge I had was a bonus to them.
I am putting a proposal to them on a comission only basis and maybe this will work for me, but who knows!
For now I think I'll stick to selling my own service and not get paid for it - rather than anyone elses!
Thanks for all your input, it helped me to make a more informed decision and question the route my business was taking.
