Also, it should be noted that, as a Leeds fan, my position is that Wednesday are better than Leeds, which is why they're a division higher!
I don't really understand all this hate business.
Real footie fans should not hate other teams, admittedly as an Everton fan I will take the mickey out of the red (removed) but that is all in fun.
The beautiful game does not really need all this hate. It is plainly daft, and you seem to be the most sensible contributer to this thread.
I suppose I will get jumped on now, but there you go.
Last edited by Malky; 02-11-2009 at 16:26.
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They don't seem to understand that they are already where they belong - in the third tier as befitting a small club which, apart from a couple of years under Revie in the 1970s (when they won all their trophies by cheating anyway) and a one season wonder in the 1990s, has never amounted to much.
They don't seem to understand that they are already where they belong - in the third tier as befitting a small club which, apart from a couple of years under Revie in the 1970s (when they won all their trophies by cheating anyway) and a one season wonder in the 1990s, has never amounted to much.
Fact: Leeds are one of a tiny minority of teams to have actually been proven in a court of law to have LOST a trophy through being cheated against. The referee admitted taking bribes from the opposition and rigging the match, and was subsequently jailed. European Cup Winners Cup final.
Wild allegation based on nothing but jealous bias: Leeds won all their trophies by cheating anyway.
I know we're a small club, and we're where we belong, through years of failure, and that after the past few years of results we are entitled to be no higher than we are, but there is a difference between structured debate and turning up and spouting mindless lies as though it will gain you credibility. It won't. It only proves your ignorance.
Fact: Leeds are one of a tiny minority of teams to have actually been proven in a court of law to have LOST a trophy through being cheated against. The referee admitted taking bribes from the opposition and rigging the match, and was subsequently jailed. European Cup Winners Cup final.
Wild allegation based on nothing but jealous bias: Leeds won all their trophies by cheating anyway.
I know we're a small club, and we're where we belong, through years of failure, and that after the past few years of results we are entitled to be no higher than we are, but there is a difference between structured debate and turning up and spouting mindless lies as though it will gain you credibility. It won't. It only proves your ignorance.
Hmm, Sophia7777's comment seems eerily similar to mine earlier in this thread.
However, I stand by my comment earlier in this thread; the Leeds United of the 1970s under Don Revie did indeed win all their trophies by cheating. And that's not my words Carol, those are the words of Brian Clough, when he took over at Leeds and tried to turn them into honest and fair professional (and the fact he only lasted 44 days tells you all you need to know about the cheating mentaility at Leeds). And I don't think anyone on this thread can claim to be more of an expert on football than Brian Clough.
Think about all the dishonesty and gamesmanship that goes on in football today; diving, off the ball fouls, intimidating of referees, players kicking, punching or stamping on opponents when the ref's not looking. All of these were introduced to the English game by the Leeds United of the 1970s.
As for your claim that Leeds were cheated out of the Cup Winners Cup, surely if what you say is true then the result would have been overturned and the game awarded to Leeds. As it wasn’t we must assume that the result was deemed to be fair and just; I’m afraid being a football fan sometimes means accepting that you’ve been beaten fair and square by a better team and to whine about being cheated out of a result just makes you look childish and pathetic.
Finally if all this were in the past, people might be prepared to let it lie, but even in the present day Leeds’ cheating goes on. A couple of years ago Leeds United were £35million in debt and on the verge of going bust, under a company run by Ken Bates and his cronies. The club was subsequently sold to another company – coincidentally also run by Ken Bates and his cronies – and the debt miraculously disappeared! Now Leeds are spending thousands in transfer fees and wages while creditors, local companies and charities have not been paid back the millions they were owed. Thus if Leeds win promotion this season, they will have done it by cheating yet again. Some things never change…….
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Hmm, Sophia7777's comment seems eerily similar to mine earlier in this thread.
However, I stand by my comment earlier in this thread; the Leeds United of the 1970s under Don Revie did indeed win all their trophies by cheating. And that's not my words Carol, those are the words of Brian Clough, when he took over at Leeds and tried to turn them into honest and fair professional (and the fact he only lasted 44 days tells you all you need to know about the cheating mentaility at Leeds). And I don't think anyone on this thread can claim to be more of an expert on football than Brian Clough.
Think about all the dishonesty and gamesmanship that goes on in football today; diving, off the ball fouls, intimidating of referees, players kicking, punching or stamping on opponents when the ref's not looking. All of these were introduced to the English game by the Leeds United of the 1970s.
As for your claim that Leeds were cheated out of the Cup Winners Cup, surely if what you say is true then the result would have been overturned and the game awarded to Leeds. As it wasn’t we must assume that the result was deemed to be fair and just; I’m afraid being a football fan sometimes means accepting that you’ve been beaten fair and square by a better team and to whine about being cheated out of a result just makes you look childish and pathetic.
Finally if all this were in the past, people might be prepared to let it lie, but even in the present day Leeds’ cheating goes on. A couple of years ago Leeds United were £35million in debt and on the verge of going bust, under a company run by Ken Bates and his cronies. The club was subsequently sold to another company – coincidentally also run by Ken Bates and his cronies – and the debt miraculously disappeared! Now Leeds are spending thousands in transfer fees and wages while creditors, local companies and charities have not been paid back the millions they were owed. Thus if Leeds win promotion this season, they will have done it by cheating yet again. Some things never change…….
Football results are never, ever overturned. Are you suggesting for a second that that result was fair, despite what happened subsequently? If so, evidently you are beyond reason or logic, such is the hatred you feel.
Yes, we played some aggressive, ungentlemanly and morally questionable football. But we never did anything like bribe a referee, nor did any of our players ever bet on us to lose (just in case some Wednesday fans are trying to take the moral high ground - you can't win).
As for the Bates saga, yes, he's a dodgy geezer, and yes, he's exploiting every loophole in the book. And morally of course it's questionable, and must be very frustrating to other clubs who may come off worse as a result. But you can't tell me that if your club were on the brink of disappearance that you wouldn't long for a dodgy chap to pull a few strings and make everything ok again. He did what was necessary to keep my club in existance, so I love him. I completely understand why everyone else (especially the irrational Leeds haters) can't stand the guy, but if your club (are you the Hereford boy? I forget) were in a state of peril and he turned up I guarantee you'd want to have his evil bearded babies.
I know from personal experience what a hostile and vile club they are but everywhere I go other clubs fans from all divisions always say how much they all hate Leeds Utd.
Could they possibly be the most disliked and hated club in Great Britain ???
Yes. Wherever you go in England, the amount of bile directed towards L**ds really is breathtaking!
Sheffield United were not popular during the Warnock years but I do think people are mellowing towards them now he's gone.
And maybe I'm biased, having lived round so many Hammers, but I don't think West Ham are actually as unpopular as some on this thread make them out to be. Millwall on the other hand are a totally different story!
Last edited by Stoatwobbler; 03-11-2009 at 14:58.
Reason: typo
Football results are never, ever overturned. Are you suggesting for a second that that result was fair, despite what happened subsequently?
Are you sure? It's extremely common for a result to be overturned if one of the sides are proved to have fielded an ineligible player; I believe it happened in the Chesterfield vs Droylsden FA Cup tie last season. If results can be overturned for a relatively minor offence like that, I feel sure that the Leeds game could also have been. Even if, as you claim, one of the match officials took a bribe, it doesn't mean that if there had been no bribe, Leeds would have won. A referee cannot physically score a goal; the opposition would have had to score one, which they clearly did fairly and squarely.
And yes, I am "the Hereford boy". As I never tire of pointing out, my little team with crowds less than a tenth of yours knocked you out of the FA Cup in 2007. And last season, despite losing 30 of our 46 games, we still managed to take 3 points off you that helped prevent you gaining automatic promotion and led to a second successive play off defeat to a club much smaller than yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zomoniac
But you can't tell me that if your club were on the brink of disappearance that you wouldn't long for a dodgy chap to pull a few strings and make everything ok again. He did what was necessary to keep my club in existance, so I love him. I completely understand why everyone else (especially the irrational Leeds haters) can't stand the guy, but if your club (are you the Hereford boy? I forget) were in a state of peril and he turned up I guarantee you'd want to have his evil bearded babies.
My club has survived dark days in the Conference when crowds dropped below 1,000 and we had to sell players at ludicrously low fees just to stay afloat. Local people pulled together organising fund-raising events, rising the club's profile and helping us gain live appearances on the BBC for FA Cup ties, the fees for which ultimately led to our survivial and return to the league. Many other clubs have been in similar dire straits but have survived by fair means. It stinks that Leeds United didn't play by the rules and cheated not just on the pitch but financially as well.
Ken Bates has no loyalty to Leeds - the only reason he came to you was because he tried to buy Wednesday but was turned away on moral grounds.
The fact you are proud that he defrauded creditors (including charities such as St John's Ambulance) when saving Leeds from extinction suggests that, like most Leeds fans, your morals are in the gutter.
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Are you sure? It's extremely common for a result to be overturned if one of the sides are proved to have fielded an ineligible player; I believe it happened in the Chesterfield vs Droylsden FA Cup tie last season. If results can be overturned for a relatively minor offence like that, I feel sure that the Leeds game could also have been. Even if, as you claim, one of the match officials took a bribe, it doesn't mean that if there had been no bribe, Leeds would have won. A referee cannot physically score a goal; the opposition would have had to score one, which they clearly did fairly and squarely.
And yes, I am "the Hereford boy". As I never tire of pointing out, my little team with crowds less than a tenth of yours knocked you out of the FA Cup in 2007. And last season, despite losing 30 of our 46 games, we still managed to take 3 points off you that helped prevent you gaining automatic promotion and led to a second successive play off defeat to a club much smaller than yours.
Ken Bates tried to buy Wednesday but was turned away on moral grounds.
The fact you are proud that he defrauded creditors (including charities such as St John's Ambulance) when saving Leeds from extinction suggests that, like most Leeds fans, your morals are in the gutter.
UEFA and the FA are different beasts, as you well know. UEFA's bias against all English clubs (I do not claim Leeds to be alone in mistreatment) is plain to see. If last year's Chelsea Barca semi had been an FA Cup game, that referee would've been demoted three divisions. Instead, he was responsible for Chelsea's ejection from the tournament, and has been called back for the Champions League this year and been nominated as a World Cup referee.
I presume naturally you also think it perfectly acceptable that when Leeds scored a clearly legitimate goal in the European Cup final, the referee gave the goal and was walking back to the centre circle when Bayern captain Beckenbaur whispered something in his ear, and then with no reason the goal was then disallowed? Obviously that's fine, because it's Leeds. Had that happened to any other team you'd be able to see reason, that the referee should had to have given a reason, and failure to do so should have seen both him and Beckenbaur disciplined. But reason seems beyond you.
I was at the 2007 FA Cup game. It amused me greatly as you had John McCombe playing for you at the time, as he was my best friend at school, and he did a superb job of marking Beckford out of the game. We were poor, we lost because you played better than us. And therein lies the difference between me and everyone else on this thread. When we lose, with good reason, I hold my hands up and concede in good spirit. That we have a bigger stadium than you is irrelevant. You came to ER, played some decent football, and won the match. Whereas you, and the rest of this thread, would claim if we won a game 78-0 that the only reason we didn't lose was because Ken Bates was hiding on the roof sniping the opposition with tranquiliser darts. It seems as soon as the word Leeds is mentioned on this forum everyone suddenly loses the power of rational and logical thought, and lights the torch and gets out the pitchfork without any good reason, just because it's the done thing around here.
I can say to you that Ronnie Radford's goal against Newcastle was awesome, and worthy of the upset it created, without saying that it was only scored through cheating. Your utter refusal to concede that maybe, just maybe, Leeds might have once played some half-decent, legal football, for 30 seconds, one afternoon in 1954, renders you completely irrational, so I'm not sure why I'm even still here, it's like trying to reason with a brick wall.
Ken Bates has no loyalty to Leeds - the only reason he came to you was because he tried to buy Wednesday but was turned away on moral grounds.
Bates was rejected by Wednesday because they're a bloody CO-Op and he's not local.
Oh, and keep being bitter Rathbone, while the Leeds United hierachy count the pennies from their home game bovril sales, which probably amount to more than your whole sides home ticket sales.
First paragraph of this article makes me laugh....
HEREFORD United look set for a massive cash bonus after being paired with Yorkshire giants Leeds United in the first round of the FA Cup.
UEFA and the FA are different beasts, as you well know. UEFA's bias against all English clubs (I do not claim Leeds to be alone in mistreatment) is plain to see. If last year's Chelsea Barca semi had been an FA Cup game, that referee would've been demoted three divisions. Instead, he was responsible for Chelsea's ejection from the tournament, and has been called back for the Champions League this year and been nominated as a World Cup referee.
I presume naturally you also think it perfectly acceptable that when Leeds scored a clearly legitimate goal in the European Cup final, the referee gave the goal and was walking back to the centre circle when Bayern captain Beckenbaur whispered something in his ear, and then with no reason the goal was then disallowed? Obviously that's fine, because it's Leeds. Had that happened to any other team you'd be able to see reason, that the referee should had to have given a reason, and failure to do so should have seen both him and Beckenbaur disciplined. But reason seems beyond you.
I was at the 2007 FA Cup game. It amused me greatly as you had John McCombe playing for you at the time, as he was my best friend at school, and he did a superb job of marking Beckford out of the game. We were poor, we lost because you played better than us. And therein lies the difference between me and everyone else on this thread. When we lose, with good reason, I hold my hands up and concede in good spirit. That we have a bigger stadium than you is irrelevant. You came to ER, played some decent football, and won the match. Whereas you, and the rest of this thread, would claim if we won a game 78-0 that the only reason we didn't lose was because Ken Bates was hiding on the roof sniping the opposition with tranquiliser darts. It seems as soon as the word Leeds is mentioned on this forum everyone suddenly loses the power of rational and logical thought, and lights the torch and gets out the pitchfork without any good reason, just because it's the done thing around here.
I can say to you that Ronnie Radford's goal against Newcastle was awesome, and worthy of the upset it created, without saying that it was only scored through cheating. Your utter refusal to concede that maybe, just maybe, Leeds might have once played some half-decent, legal football, for 30 seconds, one afternoon in 1954, renders you completely irrational, so I'm not sure why I'm even still here, it's like trying to reason with a brick wall.
Oh dear. Having failed to get your point across with logic and rationality you're now reverting to self-pity and the "no-one likes us, we don't care" routine.
Now I'm guessing you're too young to remember the Leeds of the 1970s and have learned the history from a (biased) family member, for it seems you've made a bit of an error. The game which Leeds fans claim they were cheated out of by a corrupt referee was actually the 1973 UEFA Cup Final vs AC Milan. The European Cup Final vs Bayern Munich was a totally different game which took place in 1975, and there was no corruption, just a convincing 2-0 win for the Germans. The disallowed goal you refer to was not "for no reason", it was for an offisde, for which the linesman had flagged. Beckenbauer simply asked the refereee to consult his linesman which was entirely fair and within the rules of the game. Indeed the major controversy was (surprise surprise) the behaviour of the Leeds fans. According to an eyewitness report "...... They pelted the Bayern penalty area with beer cans and bottles throughout the closlng minutes of the match. They shamed the name of British sport by forcing riot police to move in and clear them from the scene.
They even forced the Bayern team to abandon a lap of honour with the trophy, the prlze that they retained"
I suppose you'll claim that game was fixed as well, as presumably was every game Leeds have lost before or since.
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Bates was rejected by Wednesday because they're a bloody CO-Op and he's not local.
Oh, and keep being bitter Rathbone, while the Leeds United hierachy count the pennies from their home game bovril sales, which probably amount to more than your whole sides home ticket sales.
First paragraph of this article makes me laugh....
HEREFORD United look set for a massive cash bonus after being paired with Yorkshire giants Leeds United in the first round of the FA Cup.
Yeah, hilarious. It was even funnier when they won.
What exactly is your point? That a club with past successes and a massive stadium in a huge city has a higher turnover than a little local club? So what?
If you're expecting a default agreement from me because we happen to support the same team, you're sadly mistaken. The "my club's richer than your club so nerrr" argument is pathetic and irrelevant. Especially given that by default Hereford have had more money than us for much of the last 8 years by virtue of not being countless millions in the red.
I actually think it's cool that Basil supports Hereford. If everyone in the country supported Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City just because they spent big despite no geographical allegiance (oh wait...) football would be very, very dull.
I may be the only Leeds fan in the world with this view, but I've actually really enjoyed our little spell of failure. Whilst I obviously miss the glamour and prestige of the Premiership and European football, there's something very pleasant about going to an away game at one of these tiny stadia, huddled up close to the fans in a little wooden stand. There's a sense of personality, community and spirit that is completely missing from the top levels of football. Everyone is much more friendly, and you can chat to the opposing fans and it's all very pleasant (after the first few minutes at least, if you go up to someone wearing a Leeds shirt their first assumption is you're their to set fire to them or similar). An away game for us in League 1 feels like a fun adventure, a nice outing and the experience is so much nicer than sell-out 40k games at Elland Road, turn up, queue for an hour with the masses, file into seats like sheep, watch the game and then make a mad dash at the end to minimise the epic traffic disruption. If we do get promoted, which is looking very likely, I'll be sorry to leave the little teams behind.
Anyway, I've been distracted from my real point. It is comments like yours, with an emphasis on fanbase, stadia and past successes over a realistic view of what the situation is right now, ie a team in a third successive season in the third tier, that give people like Basil a justification to stereotype all Leeds fans as arrogant and deluded. We are not morally superior to Hereford. We've won more historically, and at the moment are a better side, but neither of those are good reasons to attack someone for supporting a little team. The supporters of the little teams are if anything more admirable than those taking the easy route of latching onto a top league side. Four seasons ago Hereford were playing non-league football. Last year, they were in the same division as Leeds after two promotions in three years. That is quite some achievement, and a damn sight more than we've achieved in the last two years.
So gloat all you like. I shall remain humble until we have something current, actually happening now, to gloat about.
Oh dear. Having failed to get your point across with logic and rationality you're now reverting to self-pity and the "no-one likes us, we don't care" routine.
Now I'm guessing you're too young to remember the Leeds of the 1970s and have learned the history from a (biased) family member, for it seems you've made a bit of an error. The game which Leeds fans claim they were cheated out of by a corrupt referee was actually the 1973 UEFA Cup Final vs AC Milan. The European Cup Final vs Bayern Munich was a totally different game which took place in 1975, and there was no corruption, just a convincing 2-0 win for the Germans. The disallowed goal you refer to was not "for no reason", it was for an offisde, for which the linesman had flagged. Beckenbauer simply asked the refereee to consult his linesman which was entirely fair and within the rules of the game. Indeed the major controversy was (surprise surprise) the behaviour of the Leeds fans. According to an eyewitness report "...... They pelted the Bayern penalty area with beer cans and bottles throughout the closlng minutes of the match. They shamed the name of British sport by forcing riot police to move in and clear them from the scene.
They even forced the Bayern team to abandon a lap of honour with the trophy, the prlze that they retained"
I suppose you'll claim that game was fixed as well, as presumably was every game Leeds have lost before or since.
My history is perfectly sound. If you read my posts properly you will see that the jailed referee incident refers to the 1973 Cup Winners Cup final (not UEFA as you suggest). If Milan could've won the match easily enough, why did they feel the need to pay the referee off.
As for the other match, ignoring the fact for a minute that the most blatant penalty and red card ever were ignored in the first half, you are right to say that it was given offside, I've just gone and watched it and he does indeed consult the linesman after Beckenbaur's little nudge, however the flag never went up, and the linesman didn't appear to react at the goal at all, and didn't seem to indicate offside until the referee went and spoke to him. Said referee, Michel Kitabdjian, was banned from football after match-fixing incidents in other competitions. Nothing has ever been proven about that game, nor do I intend to make an allegation I can't back up, but suffice to say his character is questionable to say the least. That said, irrespective of what happened, whilst I can sympathise with the frustration felt I do not for a second claim to excuse the behaviour of our fans. It was disgraceful, the ban we received was entirely justified.
But all this is irrelevant. Maybe Milan would've won anyway. Perhaps if the Leeds penalty against Bayern had been given we'd have gone 1-0 up early on, they'd had time to readjust and raise their game and win 5-1 without any controversy. What is relevant is your implication that when a team loses a game in which the opposition has paid off the referee, which is later proven and said referee jailed, their fans have no right to feel a little bit hard done by. Your anti-Leeds bias seems to carry with it far more delusions than that of any Leeds fan, and this coming from the first person to criticise any Leeds fan suggesting that we "belong in Europe".
Yeah, hilarious. It was even funnier when they won.
What exactly is your point? That a club with past successes and a massive stadium in a huge city has a higher turnover than a little local club? So what?
If you're expecting a default agreement from me because we happen to support the same team, you're sadly mistaken. The "my club's richer than your club so nerrr" argument is pathetic and irrelevant. Especially given that by default Hereford have had more money than us for much of the last 8 years by virtue of not being countless millions in the red.
I actually think it's cool that Basil supports Hereford. If everyone in the country supported Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City just because they spent big despite no geographical allegiance (oh wait...) football would be very, very dull.
I may be the only Leeds fan in the world with this view, but I've actually really enjoyed our little spell of failure. Whilst I obviously miss the glamour and prestige of the Premiership and European football, there's something very pleasant about going to an away game at one of these tiny stadia, huddled up close to the fans in a little wooden stand. There's a sense of personality, community and spirit that is completely missing from the top levels of football. Everyone is much more friendly, and you can chat to the opposing fans and it's all very pleasant (after the first few minutes at least, if you go up to someone wearing a Leeds shirt their first assumption is you're their to set fire to them or similar). An away game for us in League 1 feels like a fun adventure, a nice outing and the experience is so much nicer than sell-out 40k games at Elland Road, turn up, queue for an hour with the masses, file into seats like sheep, watch the game and then make a mad dash at the end to minimise the epic traffic disruption. If we do get promoted, which is looking very likely, I'll be sorry to leave the little teams behind.
Anyway, I've been distracted from my real point. It is comments like yours, with an emphasis on fanbase, stadia and past successes over a realistic view of what the situation is right now, ie a team in a third successive season in the third tier, that give people like Basil a justification to stereotype all Leeds fans as arrogant and deluded. We are not morally superior to Hereford. We've won more historically, and at the moment are a better side, but neither of those are good reasons to attack someone for supporting a little team. The supporters of the little teams are if anything more admirable than those taking the easy route of latching onto a top league side. Four seasons ago Hereford were playing non-league football. Last year, they were in the same division as Leeds after two promotions in three years. That is quite some achievement, and a damn sight more than we've achieved in the last two years.
So gloat all you like. I shall remain humble until we have something current, actually happening now, to gloat about.
*Yawn* I bet you are the king of footy banter amongst all your mates. It's about braggadocio and having a laugh with it, not writing essays about how you "respect" other teams.
As a Leeds fan I get caned all the time for who I support, so you won't hear me being such a suck-arse like you in threads like this.
Anyone who has given Leeds hammer in this thread can smoke me, and you can join the queue now Mr Sensible.
*Yawn* I bet you are the king of footy banter amongst all your mates. It's about braggadocio and having a laugh with it, not writing essays about how you "respect" other teams.
Zomoniac can be rather wordy to say the least, simple and to the point is usually the best way to go after all its only a footy forum.
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*Yawn* I bet you are the king of footy banter amongst all your mates. It's about braggadocio and having a laugh with it, not writing essays about how you "respect" other teams.
As a Leeds fan I get caned all the time for who I support, so you won't hear me being such a suck-arse like you in threads like this.
Anyone who has given Leeds hammer in this thread can smoke me, and you can join the queue now Mr Sensible.
As much as I would love to "smoke you" (what??), I am far from a suck-arse. I just feel there's a difference between "having a laugh" and "being a cock". There is bragging when you win and rubbing it in friends' faces when there team lose, and then there is providing wildly irrelevant statistics to prove a point that doesn't exist. Or did you really think that Basil either didn't know, or cared at all, that we make more on ticket sales than Hereford? I don't really see how it is of any relevance to anything, and just sounded arrogant for the hell of it. If you have a point to make, great, make it, but you don't.
As much as I would love to "smoke you" (what??), I am far from a suck-arse. I just feel there's a difference between "having a laugh" and "being a cock". There is bragging when you win and rubbing it in friends' faces when there team lose, and then there is providing wildly irrelevant statistics to prove a point that doesn't exist. Or did you really think that Basil either didn't know, or cared at all, that we make more on ticket sales than Hereford? I don't really see how it is of any relevance to anything, and just sounded arrogant for the hell of it. If you have a point to make, great, make it, but you don't.
Its really sad when you `hate` something thats main function is to put a pigs bladder in an onion bag.
"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that." Bill Shankly
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