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Holocaust Denier Irving Freed

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I think it is right that places such as germany and Austria have such a law, although I am not entirely sure they should be able to apply it to a British Citizen. The Germans murdered millions of people and they shouldn't be allowed to forget that. If one of them decides to openly say that the Germans didn't commit these crimes, or that the camps were holiday camps, or similar nonsense then they should go to gaol.

 

Just the Germans? I don't understand why people still regard the holocaust as as something that only the Germans were guilty of.

 

Which nation exterminated the highest proportion of their Jewish population and did it faster than anyone else? Yes, those fun loving, beer drinking, dope smoking, orange wearing, everybodies best mate, the Dutch.

 

Given the actions of the French, the Dutch and the Norwegians, amongst others, how can we say that we wouldn't have done the same and that the law should apply elsewhere but not here?

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What have the Dutch got to do with David Irving being locked up? What he said is obviously untrue, he broke the law in Austria, and he was sent to gaol for his crime.

 

... as many of his ilk keep insisting... "when in Rome".

 

The irony is killing me.

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A reply I gave on a previous occasion (to Plain Talker):

 

You dispute that six million Jews were murdered, you are unfortunately correct, the figure is higher. Since the opening up of the Soviet archives historians have realised that the original estimates of unarmed civilians murdered by the Nazis have been under estimates and tragically the figures are much higher.

 

About 6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[9]

1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]

200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)

200,000–300,000 people with disabilities

80,000–200,000 Freemasons[11]

100,000 communists

10,000–25,000 homosexual men

2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[12]

 

9 "How many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust? How do we know? Do we have their names?," Yad Vashem (accessed June 8, 2005). A detailed breakdown of various estimates of the victims is available from the Online Library of the United States Holocaust Museum (accessed August 10, 2005)

10 Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era at the US Holocaust Museum

11 Freemasons for Dummies, by Christopher Hodapp, Wiley Publishing Inc., Indianapolis, 2005, p.85, sec. Hitler and the Nazi

12According to the United States Holocaust Museum .

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It helps to quote sources.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

 

Wiki is not a definitive source of factual information. You should follow up the references before accepting any statements.

 

 

(not a criticism ... just pointing out, like! :))

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It helps to quote sources.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

 

Wiki is not a definitive source of factual information. You should follow up the references before accepting any statements.

 

Concur.

 

I checked and quoted the the original sources Wicki used and the Holocaust Museum are a fairly reliable body.

 

These figures as stated are not accurate and as historians continue to work through many of the papers made available due to the dismantling of the Eastern block, the figures will be further revised. The opening up of these archives in recent years have caused some major revision on how we view the events of the thirties and forties...this is set to continue.

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You dispute that six million Jews were murdered, you are unfortunately correct, the figure is higher. Since the opening up of the Soviet archives historians have realised that the original estimates of unarmed civilians murdered by the Nazis have been under estimates and tragically the figures are much higher.

 

About 6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[9]

1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]

200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)

200,000–300,000 people with disabilities

80,000–200,000 Freemasons[11]

100,000 communists

10,000–25,000 homosexual men

2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[12]

 

9 "How many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust? How do we know? Do we have their names?," Yad Vashem (accessed June 8, 2005). A detailed breakdown of various estimates of the victims is available from the Online Library of the United States Holocaust Museum (accessed August 10, 2005)

10 Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era at the US Holocaust Museum

11 Freemasons for Dummies, by Christopher Hodapp, Wiley Publishing Inc., Indianapolis, 2005, p.85, sec. Hitler and the Nazi

12According to the United States Holocaust Museum .

 

Ex-Soviet sources themselves have to be treated with a great deal of caution. The Soviets tended to include in their estimates of deaths attributable to the Nazis many other deaths attributable to themselves - including for example Soviet citizens and military personnel swallowed up in Stalin's purges. At Nuremberg, they even attributed the deaths of the Polish officers killed in the Katyn massacre to the Nazis, whereas we now know that they were killed by Beria's secret police.

 

Incidentally, is it not ironic that there is a Holocaust museum in the US (in Washington) but no museum anywhere in the US which commemorates the genocide of the Native Americans.

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There is an important distinction between being taken seriously as a historian and being taken to court for your views on historical events.

 

The case I refer to is not the Austrian case, but the Lipstadt libel case, which he initiated (and lost - sucker!)

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The case I refer to is not the Austrian case, but the Lipstadt libel case, which he initiated (and lost - sucker!)

 

But on this thread we are discussing the court case and the legislation which resulted in Irving being jailed, not the Lipstadt case.

 

As for failed libel actions, there could well be a TV programme entitled 'When Libel Actions Go Wrong'. Oscar Wilde, Jonathon Atiken and Neil Hamilton would no doubt figure prominently, among many others.

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You dispute that six million Jews were murdered, you are unfortunately correct, the figure is higher. Since the opening up of the Soviet archives historians have realised that the original estimates of unarmed civilians murdered by the Nazis have been under estimates and tragically the figures are much higher.

I myself have only looked into issues concerning Auschwitz: which of course is only one of the Nazi camps, but it is regarded as the largest and most important. The Soviet archives to which you refer are not, in the case of Auschwitz at least, at all helpful to the case you are advancing. After the fall of Communism in 1989 a set of German 'Death Book' records, originally seized by the Russians, was handed over to the International Red Cross (IRC). After extrapolating for some missing periods the IRC estimated that around 135,000 prisoners died at Auschwitz. More on that in a moment, but let's just recap on a few Auschwitz numbers:

 

4 million - the number of deaths which, for several decades after WW2, were said to have occurred at Auschwitz

 

1.5 million - the figure given for the number of deaths following re-analysis and revision by the post-communist Polish authorities in 1995 (and inscribed on the plaques currently located at the Birkenau site)

 

1 million - the figure currently referred to on the Auschwitz museum official website

 

630,000 - the lower end of the range suggested by the leading Holocaustian scholar, Jean-Claude Pressac

 

135,000 - the number supported by original records, derived from Soviet archives.

 

So, for many years the world was led to believe that 4 million people were killed at Auschwitz. We now find that the records support 'only' 135,000 deaths. In fact, I'm fair-minded enough to appreciate that the 135,000 figure may not be the whole story. The discrepancy between this and the official museum (and Pressac's) figures may be attributable to unregistered prisoners being executed at the camp. So the true figure lies somewhere between 135,000 and 1 million.

 

What the foregoing shows, however, is the importance of historians being able openly to debate and argue over the facts and evidence. To add a contemporary note, one might add, as a sort of benchmark, that 655,000 people have recently lost their lives (according to a study published by 'The Lancet') in the pro-Israel war in Iraq.

 

With regard to Wikipedia, whilst it is a useful quick source of information on many topics, its entries need to be treated with caution on politically sensitive topics.

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Irving described all holocaust figures as a 'fairytale', which he later denied saying....fancy.

 

Remember it was Irving who sued the historian Lipstadt for calling him a 'holocaust denier'. The judge and jury agreed with Lipstadt and Irving through his own nazi arrogance became an official 'holocaust denier'.

 

When he was arrested in Austria, he wasnt on his way to a W.I. meeting, he was on his way to give a talk to a group of neo nazis, the authorities took the view of N.I.M.B.Y. and off to jail he went.

 

He did not offer the defence of, 'freedom of expression' at his trial, he did not conduct a robust defence of his 'personal freedom' but simply denied he ever said anything in the first place.

If he had stood up and told the truth, put down his marker for his beliefs then fair enough but he did not in the libel case nor did he in Austria.

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What have the Dutch got to do with David Irving being locked up? What he said is obviously untrue, he broke the law in Austria, and he was sent to gaol for his crime.

 

... as many of his ilk keep insisting... "when in Rome".

 

The irony is killing me.

 

Absolutely.

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I myself have only looked into issues concerning Auschwitz: which of course is only one of the Nazi camps, but it is regarded as the largest and most important. The Soviet archives to which you refer are not, in the case of Auschwitz at least, at all helpful to the case you are advancing. After the fall of Communism in 1989 a set of German 'Death Book' records, originally seized by the Russians, was handed over to the International Red Cross (IRC). After extrapolating for some missing periods the IRC estimated that around 135,000 prisoners died at Auschwitz. More on that in a moment, but let's just recap on a few Auschwitz numbers:

 

4 million - the number of deaths which, for several decades after WW2, were said to have occurred at Auschwitz

 

1.5 million - the figure given for the number of deaths following re-analysis and revision by the post-communist Polish authorities in 1995 (and inscribed on the plaques currently located at the Birkenau site)

 

1 million - the figure currently referred to on the Auschwitz museum official website

 

630,000 - the lower end of the range suggested by the leading Holocaustian scholar, Jean-Claude Pressac

 

135,000 - the number supported by original records, derived from Soviet archives.

 

So, for many years the world was led to believe that 4 million people were killed at Auschwitz. We now find that the records support 'only' 135,000 deaths. In fact, I'm fair-minded enough to appreciate that the 135,000 figure may not be the whole story. The discrepancy between this and the official museum (and Pressac's) figures may be attributable to unregistered prisoners being executed at the camp. So the true figure lies somewhere between 135,000 and 1 million.

 

What the foregoing shows, however, is the importance of historians being able openly to debate and argue over the facts and evidence. To add a contemporary note, one might add, as a sort of benchmark, that 655,000 people have recently lost their lives (according to a study published by 'The Lancet') in the pro-Israel war in Iraq.

 

With regard to Wikipedia, whilst it is a useful quick source of information on many topics, its entries need to be treated with caution on politically sensitive topics.

 

Encarta quotes Camp Commandant Rudolf Hoess (no umlauts I'm afraid) as stating a minimum of 2.5 million deaths at Auschwitz, never mind the other camps.

 

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562579/Auschwitz.html

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