What does everyone think about Blairs sudden U-turn over a referendum on Europe? Labour were against a referendum (despite claims to the contrary by a certain hardcore Labourite (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=96191#post96191) ) and the Tories were pressing for a referendum, and suddenly Blair has decided afterall that it can't be ruled out (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/19/neu19.xml). In doing this he has partly 'shot the fox' of the Tories. Having said that, an important issue like this definitely deserves a referendum, so its about time that Tony Blair has finally recognised this fact. Discuss...

He hasn't said it can't be ruled in - all he needs to do is say maybe till after the next election and it goes away for a couple more years. Looks like typical cynical politics to me unfortunately.

Originally posted by evildrneil
He hasn't said it can't be ruled in - all he needs to do is say maybe till after the next election and it goes away for a couple more years. Looks like typical cynical politics to me unfortunately.


What more can we expect from Bliar though?


PS. For the intellectually challenged, the above spelling error is entirely deliberate.

I wouldn't trust a fat cat greedy Tory as far as I could throw one.

The National Health Service and National Minimum Wage are just two things that would keep me supporting the Labour Party for the rest of my life.

The Tories sent working class children down coal mines and injured them in textile mills - They would still do that today if they could get away with it.

The Tories sent many of our ancestors to an early grave - for their own greed - and they should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Tony Blair is a great leader for our country.

Any guesses on what the referendum would read?

Something like the following wouldn't surprise me:


1) Do we enter the EU at my discretion?

2) Do we wait until the conditions have been fully met.

Your vote please. How's that for a stitch up? :hihi: :nod: ;)

Originally posted by Yorkie
I wouldn't trust a fat cat greedy Tory as far as I could throw one.

The National Health Service and National Minimum Wage are just two things that would keep me supporting the Labour Party for the rest of my life.

The Tories sent working class children down coal mines and injured them in textile mills - They would still do that today if they could get away with it.

The Tories sent many of our ancestors to an early grave - for their own greed - and they should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Tony Blair is a great leader for our country.


What millennium are you living in exactly? And am I not right in suggesting that it was the Tories under Thatcher that enabled a large expansion in the middle classes.

Originally posted by t020
What millennium are you living in exactly? And am I not right in suggesting that it was the Tories under Thatcher that enabled a large expansion in the middle classes.


I'm living in the third millennium.


The biggest gainers under Thatcher were already the wealthiest.


And Michael Howard is something of the night - i.e. not to be trusted.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I wouldn't trust a fat cat greedy Tory as far as I could throw one.


You can tell the difference between a Tory and a Labout politician at the moment?


The National Health Service and National Minimum Wage are just two things that would keep me supporting the Labour Party for the rest of my life.


Aren't the Labour Party currently doing a pretty good job of dismantling the NHS? I certainly wouldn't trust their guardianship of it any more than I would trust the Tories...


The Tories sent working class children down coal mines and injured them in textile mills - They would still do that today if they could get away with it.


They did? Really? When? Wasn't the mines act banning child labour passed by a conservative government in 1842?


The Tories sent many of our ancestors to an early grave - for their own greed - and they should be wiped off the face of the earth.


This sounds scarilly like unthinking extremist rhetoric.


Tony Blair is a great leader for our country.

I'm not sure that Blair could be classed as a great leader for this or any other county - populist corporate / US lapdog may be closer to the mark!

They are almost all liars and will do anything to get voted in and then what ever they like after.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I wouldn't trust a fat cat greedy Tory as far as I could throw one.

The National Health Service and National Minimum Wage are just two things that would keep me supporting the Labour Party for the rest of my life.

The Tories sent working class children down coal mines and injured them in textile mills - They would still do that today if they could get away with it.

The Tories sent many of our ancestors to an early grave - for their own greed - and they should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Tony Blair is a great leader for our country.

I agree with much of what you say, although the Tories have to put a mask of compassion on their policies these days to hide their true beliefs.

If unchecked, I suspect they would love to undo all the social advances the Labour Party and the unions have given the workers over the years.

I'd trust anyone more than I trust Blair to be honest.

Originally posted by evildrneil


I'm not sure that Blair could be classed as a great leader for this country.

I notice that you didn't challenge the fact that Michael Howard is something of the night and not to be trusted. That's because the statement was made by a leading Tory.

He would sell his mother to be Prime Minister.

He is also a Jew - I wonder how many Muslims will vote for him. I hope none.

Originally posted by mojoworking


If unchecked, I suspect they would love to undo all the social advances the Labour Party and the unions have given the workers over the years.


I agree - the Tories are a devious bunch, out to exploit the working class.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I agree - the Tories are a devious bunch, out to exploit the working class. I think that you will find that Labour have the longest and most glorious history of exploiting the working class. It's the illusion of slow progress whilst keeping them down. After all, you don't want your voters getting ideas above themselves... like voting for someone else!

In my view, Blair's U-turn has little to do with public opinion but more to do with bowing to pressure from the Murdoch press machine - especially when coming up to another General Election.

Originally posted by Tony
I think that you will find that Labour have the longest and most glorious history of exploiting the working class. It's the illusion of slow progress whilst keeping them down. After all, you don't want your voters getting ideas above themselves... like voting for someone else!

I'm sure we've all had plenty of time to think about that while we take our 4 weeks annual holiday after working our 8 hour day for our minimum weekly wage in our safe working environment.

Like I said .... Slow progress. Who was it that said "they might be working class morons, but they're OUR working class morons"?

Sooner or later we are going to have to realise that we are a part of Europe and that integration is a far better plan than isolation.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I notice that you didn't challenge the fact that Michael Howard is something of the night and not to be trusted. That's because the statement was made by a leading Tory.

He would sell his mother to be Prime Minister.

He is also a Jew - I wonder how many Muslims will vote for him. I hope none.

I wasn't replying to that post - and I notice you didn't challenge any of the statements I made - can I assume this means you agree with them?

Personally I wouldnt trust Michael Howard as far as I could comfortably spit him - however the same applies to Blair - and even more so to Blunkett who is an utter disaster.

Though lets be honest here, you would be hard pressed to find enough decent people from Labour and Conservatives parties put together to form a cabinet!

Oh and I have to say I found the Jew comment a bit distastefull...

Originally posted by Yorkie
I wouldn't trust a fat cat greedy Tory as far as I could throw one.

The National Health Service and National Minimum Wage are just two things that would keep me supporting the Labour Party for the rest of my life.

The Tories sent working class children down coal mines and injured them in textile mills - They would still do that today if they could get away with it.

The Tories sent many of our ancestors to an early grave - for their own greed - and they should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Tony Blair is a great leader for our country.

I'll put you down as an undecided then?

Originally posted by Yorkie
I notice that you didn't challenge the fact that Michael Howard is something of the night and not to be trusted. That's because the statement was made by a leading Tory.

He would sell his mother to be Prime Minister.

He is also a Jew - I wonder how many Muslims will vote for him. I hope none.

This sound suspiciously like anti-semetism to me. I thought Socialists are supposed to be against racism. Still you have a point, as many of the biggest racists around are Muslims. Compared to Muslim extremists the BNP are small time. Just think about how Muslim fundamentalists like the idea of killing as many westerners (ie white people) as they can. They also seem to have a problem with Jews, Hindus and just about anybody who isn't one of them.

Sorry, I know this is off the point about a Euro referendum.

Originally posted by Abdul
In my view, Blair's U-turn has little to do with public opinion but more to do with bowing to pressure from the Murdoch press machine - especially when coming up to another General Election.

Yes, that sounds about right. Politicians traditionally soften and waver on controverial issues and begin to avoid giving direct answers (talk gibberish almost) to potentially damaging questions as a general election looms.

It looks like Blair is trying to pull the same trick that Harold Wilson did in the two general elections of 1974, ie, making Europe a referendum issue rather than a potentially vote losing general election one.

In Wilson's case it was more to do with Labour Party splits and the desire to avoid them at election time. In Blair's case it seems he realises that Europe is an issue where the Conservative party is more in touch with public opinion than Labour.

Originally posted by slimsid2000
This sound suspiciously like anti-semetism to me. I thought Socialists are supposed to be against racism. Still you have a point, as many of the biggest racists around are Muslims. Compared to Muslim extremists the BNP are small time. Just think about how Muslim fundamentalists like the idea of killing as many westerners (ie white people) as they can. They also seem to have a problem with Jews, Hindus and just about anybody who isn't one of them.


That's a sensible post, coming from an Islamophobe :roll:

I saw Tony Blair launch the EU debate.

He is such a Great Leader.

On the other hand, Michael Howard is such a slimey opportunist.

Originally posted by slimsid2000
This sound suspiciously like anti-semetism to me. I thought Socialists are supposed to be against racism. Still you have a point, as many of the biggest racists around are Muslims. Compared to Muslim extremists the BNP are small time. Just think about how Muslim fundamentalists like the idea of killing as many westerners (ie white people) as they can. They also seem to have a problem with Jews, Hindus and just about anybody who isn't one of them.

I think that trying to find the biggest bigots around is a loser - racism, sexism, clanism and religion-ism are almost universal amoungst anyone either too lazy to think or who prefer to use idiology rather than grey matter.

Originally posted by evildrneil


I think that trying to find the biggest racists around is a loser.


I agree - keep Tories out.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I agree - keep Tories out.

I hate to have to point this out but you do seem to be falling into the using idiology over grey matter catagory...

I saw Tony Blair launch the EU debate.

He is such a Great Leader.


Tony Blair launched the EU debate?????? Your not actually trying to be serious now are you?

Originally posted by t020


What does everyone think about Blairs sudden U-turn over a referendum on Europe?


It just reminds me of the Tory love for Iain Duncan-Smith.

Two days later the Tories hung him.

I would never trust a Tory.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I saw Tony Blair launch the EU debate.

He is such a Great Leader.

On the other hand, Michael Howard is such a slimey opportunist.

They're ******* the pair of 'em.

Blair's a muppet, and as for Michael Howard... ***?! He can't even run his own ******* Party much less run a Country, look at all the in-fighting, bitching and sniping in the Conservative Party of late.

Apologies to the Mods for the slight use of not very nice language :D

Mod: I still removed the slight not nice language Rich - remember, family forum! Tony

Originally posted by evildrneil
Tony Blair launched the EU debate?????? Your not actually trying to be serious now are you?

Yes - and I also said that Michael Howard, best friend of Iain Duncan Smith, (who?) was a slimey opportunist.

Originally posted by Rich
They're ******* the pair of 'em.

Blair's a muppet, and as for Michael Howard... ***?! He can't even run his own *******Party much less run a Country, look at all the in-fighting, bitching and sniping in the Conservative Party of late.

Apologies to the Mods for the slight use of not very nice language :D


I agree - and I love the muppets. :D

Originally posted by Rich
They're merchant bankers the pair of 'em.

Blair's a muppet, and as for Michael Howard... WTF?! He can't even run his own friggin' Party much less run a Country, look at all the in-fighting, bitching and sniping in the Conservative Party of late.

Apologies to the Mods for the slight use of not very nice language :D


Howard has actually managed to control many of the various factions of the conservatives and brought them together into shape, hopefully ready for the next general election.

Yorkie - most of your comments are typical, chip on shoulder, working class socialite tosh, but bringing Howards religion into the debate was a cheap shot at best, and anti-semetic at worst.


PS. The silence from a certain hardcore Labour fanatic is almost deafening in this thread. Whatever happened to Labour being the "only party to offer a referendum"? Blairs only just bowed to pressure.

Originally posted by Yorkie
Yes - and I also said that Michael Howard, best friend of Iain Duncan Smith, (who?) was a slimey opportunist.

Ermmm Treaty of Rome 1957? Dont remember there being much input from Blair then?

Originally posted by t020


Howard has actually managed to control many of the various factions of the conservatives and brought them together into shape, hopefully ready for the next general election.



Just another Tory cover-up.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Ermmm Treaty of Rome 1957? Dont remember there being much input from Blair then?


As a 3 year old, I think he would have been excused. :D

Originally posted by t020


Yorkie - most of your comments are typical, chip on shoulder, working class socialite tosh.




Only to fat cat tories.

Originally posted by Yorkie
As a 3 year old, I think he would have been excused. :D

Seeing as that was the formation of the EU he is hardly likely to have kicked off debate about it then is he?

Originally posted by t020


Bringing Howards religion into the debate was a cheap shot at best, and anti-semetic at worst.





Some people don't like how Jews treat Muslims and because Michael Howard is a Jew, I said I would be surprised if many Muslims voted for him.

As for Iain Duncan-Smith, Michael Howard stabbed him in the back in his quest for power. I would never trust Michael Howard.

Neither would Anne Widdicombe. :D :D :D

Originally posted by evildrneil
Seeing as that was the formation of the EU he is hardly likely to have kicked off debate about it then is he?


You know I meant the debate today.

You sound like an opportunistic Tory.

Typical.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Oh and I have to say I found the Jew comment a bit distastefull...

If Yorkie had said "so and so is a Catholic, so the Protestants won't vote for him", would you have found that distasteful as well? I think not.

It's amazing how the use of the word "Jew" in even the most harmless context is now construed as anti-Semitic.

Is "Jew" now the latest word to have been hijacked by the PC brigade?

Originally posted by mojoworking


It's amazing how the use of the word "Jew" in even the most harmless context is now construed as anti-Semitic.


Yes LOL I used it deliberately to test the Tory response ! :D

I know (from inside information) that the conservatives are very concerned about him being Jewish and they want to keep it quiet. Don't forget that nobody voted for Michael Howard as leader, no MP, no party member, no member of the public - nobody. His leadership was fixed behind closed doors.

I really do think that Labour does more for ordinary people through hospitals, social services, schools and the minimum wage.

The Tories just want hospitals and education for those who can afford to pay for it privately and to hell with the rest because they feel that the workers don't need it or even deserve it.

The Tories would have never introduced the minimum wage - they predicted doom, gloom and business closures when it was announced by Labour. Well there was no doom and gloom and no massive job loses. It improved the living standards for thousands and thousands of low paid workers in a way that fat cat Tories just can't understand.

Workers spend their money to generate more business and employment. They don't stash bars of gold in safe deposit boxes like selfish fat cat Tories.

I trust Tony Blair with the tough decisions that he has to make. That job just cannot be easy but the lad does well.

You have made some very interesting points Yorkie, but there are some I must take issue with:

Originally posted by Yorkie
I know (from inside information) that the conservatives are very concerned about him being Jewish and they want to keep it quiet.

Have a look at this article in The Guardian, dated February 19 2004. Howard attacks BNP 'thugs' in Burnley (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/speeches/story/0,11126,1151623,00.html) where Howard mentions his Jewish ancestry. Personally, I'd never vote for Howard because I don't agree with Tory policies; nothing to do with his religion.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I really do think that Labour does more for ordinary people through hospitals, social services, schools and the minimum wage.

The Tories just want hospitals and education for those who can afford to pay for it privately and to hell with the rest because they feel that the workers don't need it or even deserve it.

I agree with your comments on the Tories here, but I don't think that Labour have improved things that much. Personally, Blair's latest project - Foundation Hospitals - makes my blood run cold. Does Blair want to do to the Health Service what he's done to schools? Measure everything on easily-massagable statistics that bear no relation to the quality of service received?

As for Social Services, Labour does seem to provide more...as proven by my Council Tax rise this year :roll:

I had the worst of both worlds - educated under a low-spending Tory government, and employed under a high- taxing Labour government!

Originally posted by Yorkie
I saw Tony Blair launch the EU debate.

He is such a Great Leader.

On the other hand, Michael Howard is such a slimey opportunist. Oh come on... You can spot enough of a difference to say that Howard is a "slimey opportunist" and Blair is a "Great Leader" (I noted the God-like capitals BTW)

Originally posted by Abdul
You have made some very interesting points Yorkie, but there are some I must take issue with:

Have a look at this article in The Guardian, dated February 19 2004 where Howard mentions his Jewish ancestry.

I suspect that Howard used his ancestry for political gain. He would also try to discredit anyone to avoid a Tory loss.

Does Blair want to do to the Health Service what he's done to schools?

I hope so. I have closely watched the progress of some Primary schools and they have made some fantastic advances. Oh yes, some teachers will squeal, because we can now measure their performance. Didn't you have any crap teachers at school who were just there to pick up their pay check and enjoy long holidays? They should be retrained or booted out.

As for Social Services, Labour does seem to provide more.

I believe that every household in the country should pay a fixed sum of say £520 per year to the Council. The shortfall should then be collected by Central Government through an increase in Income Tax. The Government would then pay the Councils a sum per head of population.

Originally posted by mojoworking
If Yorkie had said "so and so is a Catholic, so the Protestants won't vote for him", would you have found that distasteful as well? I think not.

It's amazing how the use of the word "Jew" in even the most harmless context is now construed as anti-Semitic.

Is "Jew" now the latest word to have been hijacked by the PC brigade?

In the context of his post yes - Go back and read it - diatribe agains Howard followed by the Jew comment - if a clear negative implication was not intended then it could have been MUCH better phrased!

This may seem odd but I found the comment about muslims not voting for a jew offensive as it impled that all muslims vote dependant on a person's religion. That, and not the reference to Michael Howard's jewishness, is the issue, imo.

Originally posted by Yorkie
You know I meant the debate today.

You sound like an opportunistic Tory.

Typical.

Don't complain if you dont write what you mean - the rest of your posts have consisted mainly of inaccurate information of foaming ideology (thats why I had to ask if you were being serious!) so I assumed you had simply got this one wrong as well - going on past experience it seemed the most reasonable judgement to make.

Oh and for the record I'm neither Tory nor Labour - though the two practically meet in the middle these days.

Originally posted by evildrneil
In the context of his post yes - Go back and read it - diatribe agains Howard followed by the Jew comment - if a clear negative implication was not intended then it could have been MUCH better phrased!

The diatribe has nothing to do with it. This is what Yorkie said:

"He is also a Jew - I wonder how many Muslims will vote for him. I hope none".

Substitute "Michael Howard" with "Gerry Adams" and "Jew/Muslim" with "Catholic/Protestant" and see if it's still offensive.

Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Black Catholic playing centre forward for Glasgow Rangers.

If you're seeing negative connotations every time the word "Jew" is used, then that only confirms my earlier comments re. the word being hijacked by the PC brigade

Originally posted by mojoworking
The diatribe has nothing to do with it. This is what Yorkie said:

"He is also a Jew - I wonder how many Muslims will vote for him. I hope none".

Substitute "Michael Howard" with "Gerry Adams" and "Jew/Muslim" with "Catholic/Protestant" and see if it's still offensive.

Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Black Catholic playing centre forward for Glasgow Rangers.

If you're seeing negative connotations every time the word "Jew" is used, then that only confirms my earlier comments re. the word being hijacked by the PC brigade

Ermmm as I said I saw negative connotations in THAT CONTEXT not every time (perhaps if I put it in caps you will read it this time) the religion per-se is immaterial - sentances do not live as entites by themselves but are coloured by the context they are used in and the context here was deffinately negative. I dont actually think any comment about any religion was particulaly appropriate there as I dont see it having a bearing on the debate (if you can call Yorkies comments that)

Originally posted by evildrneil
I dont actually think any comment about any religion was particulaly appropriate there as I dont see it having a bearing on the debate (if you can call Yorkies comments that)

In an ideal world religious comments shouldn't have any bearing, but in the real world they most definitely do.

Religious origin determines pretty much everything in the world these days, from the President Of The USA downwards

Originally posted by Yorkie
I wouldn't trust a fat cat greedy Tory as far as I could throw one.

The National Health Service and National Minimum Wage are just two things that would keep me supporting the Labour Party for the rest of my life.

The Tories sent working class children down coal mines and injured them in textile mills - They would still do that today if they could get away with it.

The Tories sent many of our ancestors to an early grave - for their own greed - and they should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Tony Blair is a great leader for our country.

You are right and I agree with you, the Tories are still the same treacherous, callous, selfish, indifferent, arrogant, bunch of self satisfied perverted freaks that that they have always been and if they ever got back into power they would sqeeze us again and again until the pips squeaked, I know, iv'e lived it, you have been warned!!!

Originally posted by mojoworking


Religious origin determines pretty much everything in the world these days, from the President Of The USA downwards


I agree.

Bush backs Israel because he can't survive without the Jew vote in America.

I think that Arabs in Palestine get a rough deal.

Originally posted by evildrneil



Oh and for the record I'm neither Tory nor Labour.


That's why you never win.


Are you a loser ?

Originally posted by max


This may seem odd but I found the comment about muslims not voting for a jew offensive.


I agree.


Your comments do seem odd.

Originally posted by halevan


You are right and I agree with you.


I agree with you too.


In fact I quite like you.


You have good taste. :D

For my money, there shouldn't be a referendum. Political decisions should be made by elected politicans. If we don't like the decisions they make, we vote them out come election time.

Also, I think the inevitable 'no' vote could prove to be very damaging. Blair's playing a dangerous game.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I have closely watched the progress of some Primary schools and they have made some fantastic advances. Oh yes, some teachers will squeal, because we can now measure their performance. Didn't you have any crap teachers at school who were just there to pick up their pay check and enjoy long holidays? They should be retrained or booted out.


Fair enough, but let's look again at the hospitals. Many hospitals are cancelling important operations in favour of simple ones which take less time (therefore more ops can be done), effectively massaging figures to make the hospital stats look good. It was on local radio in the past fortnight.

What's your opinion on that? Labour have had several years to turn things around, so you can't continue to blame the Tories for this.

Originally posted by Yorkie
I believe that every household in the country should pay a fixed sum of say £520 per year to the Council. The shortfall should then be collected by Central Government through an increase in Income Tax. The Government would then pay the Councils a sum per head of population.

Increase Income tax? You're joking right? Didn't Blair recently say he would not raise the higher level of income tax? Funny how Blair keeps his promises in that respect...

Originally posted by Yorkie
I hope so. I have closely watched the progress of some Primary schools and they have made some fantastic advances. Oh yes, some teachers will squeal, because we can now measure their performance.


Hang on a minute werent school league table and performance reviews brought in by a conservative govenment?


I believe that every household in the country should pay a fixed sum of say £520 per year to the Council. The shortfall should then be collected by Central Government through an increase in Income Tax. The Government would then pay the Councils a sum per head of population.

And doesn't this sound suspiciously like the Poll Tax?

Now I see whats going on - the tacit aproval of conservative schemes, the cartoonish, foaming diatribes, the avoiding facts and questions you don't want to answer - you really are a Tory trying to further discredit Blair!

Well don't try too hard - didn't anyone ever tell you its not nice to kick a man when he's down!

Originally posted by Abdul
In my view, Blair's U-turn has little to do with public opinion but more to do with bowing to pressure from the Murdoch press machine - especially when coming up to another General Election.

Those words are on the ball IMO. If Blair lost the support of the Sun....He's as sunk as a heavy anchor.
:clap: :clap: :nod:

Originally posted by Abdul


Fair enough, but let's look again at the hospitals. Many hospitals are cancelling important operations in favour of simple ones which take less time therefore more ops can be done.


What's your opinion on that?


You made a good point - more ops can be done.

That's public service. Safe under Labour. :D

Originally posted by Abdul



Increase Income tax? You're joking right? Didn't Blair recently say he would not raise the higher level of income tax? Funny how Blair keeps his promises in that respect.


Tony keeps his promises in all respects.

I would like to see Income Tax rise during Labour's third term.

If we want good social services they have to be paid for.

The Tory voting fat cats are in the best position to pay more.

Originally posted by Yorkie
You made a good point - more ops can be done.

That's public service. Safe under Labour. :D

No no no...the ops being performed are minor ones, to make the figures look good. Major, life saving, ones are being skipped.

Stats are being manipulated and lives are being put at risk to present the figures in a better light.

How does that sound?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Black Catholic playing centre forward for Glasgow Rangers.
Wow, you actually said that! Let's repeat it to check...

Originally posted by mojoworking
Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Black Catholic playing centre forward for Glasgow Rangers.
Yep... it's still racist claptrap - no matter how many times I read it.

Originally posted by Abdul
No no no...the ops being performed are minor ones, to make the figures look good. Major, life saving, ones are being skipped.

Stats are being manipulated and lives are being put at risk to present the figures in a better light.

How does that sound?


It isn't as simple as that. Please don't be fooled by Tory propaganda. Hospital Registrars simply do not put their job on the line by massaging figures. I can assure you of that.

Senior Surgical Teams are required for major ops. They sometimes discover complications during surgery and the op may be extended from 2 hours to 10 hours. Delays or cancellations cannot be avoided. We cannot abort in mid surgery because Mrs X has a 2pm appointment. Please understand this.

Junior Surgical Teams can knock out 10 ops per day and they, by the very nature of their work, are less likely to find complications that lead to delays.

It's wrong to slag off hospitals and their Staff like the Tory media does. The more hospitals do the more people expect. We should be more grateful.

Many people who enjoy life today may have been dead in similar circumstances, 25 years ago. :D

Originally posted by Yorkie
Tony keeps his promises in all respects.
Apart from the one about the referendum?

And these... (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=blairs+broken+promises) Any broken Blair promises people?

Originally posted by Yorkie
I would like to see Income Tax rise during Labour's third term.

If we want good social services they have to be paid for.

The Tory voting fat cats are in the best position to pay more.

Ah... you mean you want somebody else to pay more income tax, not actually YOU? You just want somebody else to pay for your improved services? Yea, I see the Socialist Worker (AKA non working students who haven't grown up yet) ideaology there.

You're a perfectly balanced individual... a chip on EACH shoulder!:loopy:

Originally posted by Tony


You're a perfectly balanced individual... a chip on EACH shoulder!:loopy:


As a so called moderator you should set an example and not abuse members. You have already driven people away that Geoff Bowen is aware of.

Originally posted by Tony
Ah... you mean you want somebody else to pay more income tax, not actually YOU? You just want somebody else to pay for your improved services? Yea, I see the Socialist Worker (AKA non working students who haven't grown up yet) ideaology there.


No, I can't see where he says he wants other people's tax to rise but not his.:loopy:

Believe it or not Tony there are a lot of people who would willingly pay more tax to see improved services. Yes, I'm prepared to see MY taxes rise too.

I don't speak on behalf of Geoff or SF in these threads, and I cannot think of a single example where I have abused my responsibility, but I hope there are a few occasions when I have helped people. Whether I have Moderator after my name or not, I am entitled to my opinion, as you are. This is an open forum, and within the rules anyone can say anything.

You are perfectly at liberty to counter it, and you do seem to have a chip on each shoulder. (There I said it again).

Anyway, back on topic... I am interested why you have so much venom towards "fat cat Tories" and why you laud the Great Leader Tony Blair so much against evidence to the contrary.

Why should others who work hard (maybe harder than you) have to pay for your increased wellbeing? (this is just a question you understand)

Tony, being firmly diplomatic. (ac. SusieP)

Originally posted by max
No, I can't see where he says he wants other people's tax to rise but not his.:loopy:
Here it is Max...
Originally posted by Yorkie
The Tory voting fat cats are in the best position to pay more.


Originally posted by max
Believe it or not Tony there are a lot of people who would willingly pay more tax to see improved services. Yes, I'm prepared to see MY taxes rise too.
I will let you into a secret Max - I'm one of them, shhhh :)... but ONLY after government and public services enter the real world where efficiency counts.

Originally posted by max


No, I can't see where he says he wants other people's tax to rise but not his.




Exactly - I didn't say that.

Even though Tory fat cats are in the best position to pay more, I would be quite willing to pay my share. :D

Originally posted by Tony
Wow, you actually said that! Let's repeat it to check...


Yep... it's still racist claptrap - no matter how many times I read it.

Ah yes, your favourite word Tony. Racist. Perhaps you'd care to explain exactly how it's racist.

Rangers are famous for not signing Catholics or Blacks, that's a fact.

Muslims don't exactly see eye to eye with Jews. That's another fact

Perhaps your PC sensibilities would have been less offended if I'd said: Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Sheffield Tory MP?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Perhaps your PC sensibilities would have been less offended if I'd said: Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Sheffield Tory MP? Nope... it's still racist claptrap.

PS, check a few of my other posts - I'm hardly PC in the way you mean it.

And this is waaaayyy off topic. Can we get back to it please?

Originally posted by Tony
Nope... it's still racist claptrap.

PS, check a few of my other posts - I'm hardly PC in the way you mean it.

I notice you didn't attempt to explain WHY it's "racist", though.

In case you don't quite understand how these things work, I was attempting to describe something that's rare, or not likely to happen very often, and comparing it with something else that's not likely to happen.

Call it a simile, a metaphor, or what you will, but racist it's not.

Got that?

It's racist because it is simply not true - it is a racial stereotype that you use to perpetuate your mistruth.

Originally posted by Yorkie
That's why you never win.


Are you a loser ?

...and just in case anyone was under the illusion that you are capable of any type of reasoned debate...

Originally posted by mojoworking



Ah yes, your favourite word Tony. Racist. Perhaps you'd care to explain exactly how it's racist.




I was confused too - I didn't think it was racist either.


Anyway - if Tony feels that we need a EU-turn then I am happy to be guided by His wisdom. He probably knows a short cut. :D


Anything would be better than a Tory pile up. :(

Originally posted by evildrneil


...and just in case anyone was under the illusion that you are capable of any type of reasoned debate...


You waste your vote so why bother debating.

Originally posted by Yorkie
You waste your vote so why bother debating.

I your case - because you can't - or at least I have yet to see any evidence of it - are you sure you aren't a politician?

Originally posted by evildrneil



are you sure you aren't a politician?




If I were I would avoid answering the question.

Hmm, I suppose that i don't have much faith in the general public. As someone has already stated, we vote for our parliament to make these decisions for us. The general public as a whole probably aren't well enough informed to vote on something that is so complex.

Originally posted by Andy78


Hmm, I suppose that i don't have much faith in the general public. As someone has already stated, we vote for our parliament to make these decisions for us. The general public as a whole probably aren't well enough informed to vote on something that is so complex.


I agree.

But the Tories were bitching about a referendum and bringing the country down with their opportunism so we will have a referendum and silence them Tories once and for all. :D

Tories have no policies so they scratch around in the dirt.

I will vote which ever way Tony wants me to vote.


The country comes first.

You're a peach! Did you get the personally signed card from him last Christmas. or just the party one?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Yorkie
I will vote which ever way Tony wants me to vote.


The country comes first.


Yorkie, you are insufferable. If that moron Blair asked you to drown yourself, would you? :shakes:

Originally posted by Yorkie
I will vote which ever way Tony wants me to vote.

I have to say thats one of the scariest things I've read on here!!!

Originally posted by Lickszz


Yorkie, you are insufferable. If that moron Blair asked you to drown yourself, would you? :shakes:


Tony is intelligent.


He'd probably ask me to drown you first.

Originally posted by evildrneil
I have to say thats one of the scariest things I've read on here!!!


You second.

In the words of the late, great Peter Cook referring to Edmund of the Yorkists...

"Ahhh.... cannon fodder !!"

:thumbsup: :loopy: :thumbsup:

In the words of the great, great Tony Blair, referring to Eighteen years of Tory carnage and social neglect . . .


''Things can only get better.''




. . . and they did.

Originally posted by Yorkie
Tony is intelligent.


He'd probably ask me to drown you first.


Blair is a conman, a glib conman. He has such a gift of the gab, he could, I reckon, sell a dodgey volume of encyclopedia to you Yorkie. And that is his only attribute. :hihi: ;)

Originally posted by Abdul


Increase Income tax? You're joking right? Didn't Blair recently say he would not raise the higher level of income tax? Funny how Blair keeps his promises in that respect...

He wouldn't dare. Those are potential tory voters who need to be safe guarded at all costs.

Originally posted by Tony
It's racist because it is simply not true - it is a racial stereotype that you use to perpetuate your mistruth.

Do you specialise in missing the point?

It's not off topic, because the first half of the simile is a quote from something another member wrote early on in this thread.

I added the second half as a rejoinder later.

You're having a very hard job disproving either statement because both are patently true

Originally posted by Tony
It's racist because it is simply not true - it is a racial stereotype that you use to perpetuate your mistruth.

i think Mojo has a point Tony, you do seem to have an unhealthy passion for the 'racist' chant in many of your posts.

notice you didn't provide any of your famous 'facts', to back up your argument, so I will do it for you. here are some of the black/Asian players who have played for Rangers:-

Mark Walters, Rod Wallace, Emerson, Basile Boli, Dale Gordon, Marcus Gayle, Russell Latapy, Rachid Namouchi, Alain Boumsong, and Marvin Andrews. apologies to those who i have forgotten.

Yorkie - I'd like to pose the same question that Tony asked you but you ignored. Why do you expect other people to pay for you? Why do you expect a free ride and act like society owes you?

Most of these 'fat cats' have worked hard and/or taken risks to get where they are and so deserve high incomes. Why should their success be punished by forcing them to subsidise the failure of others? Apart from the very vulnerable in society, ie. the elderly and the disabled, what possible right do people like you have to expect other people to pay for you? I know you're type. You were the type at school that sat dossing about and then expected the 'nerd' to lend you their homework so you could copy it up. You're born into this far left socialist ideology that success should be punished and failure should be rewarded. It comes across as being very small minded and I have images of you walking to your local 'Working Mans club' clutching proudly to a copy of the Socialist Worker/ Morning Star and donning a flat cap complete with whippet on a lead.

In summary - what makes you think that society owes you and should pay to provide your services?

Originally posted by Lickszz


Blair is a conman, a glib conman. He has such a gift of the gab, he could, I reckon, sell a dodgey volume of encyclopedia to you Yorkie. And that is his only attribute. :hihi: ;)


Tony has run your country well.


I agree - he is gifted.

Originally posted by Lickszz


He wouldn't dare. Those are potential tory voters who need to be safe guarded at all costs.


Tony can only rule with public consent - that's democrasy.

When tight fisted selfish Tories act greedily, it makes life difficult.

Originally posted by t020



I know you're type.


No you don't. Stop making false Tory claims.

People earning less than £52,000 pa should never vote Tory.

People earning over £52,000 pa should vote Labour.

Read history.

We should await Tony's instructions on the referendum. :D

I must admit, there is no doubt that the Tories have been the best opposition party in our lifetime.


Let's hope it stays that way. :D

Originally posted by t020
I know you're type.

Sorry to butt in here t020, but you're rising to the bait so much that your usual impeccable attention to detail, grammar etc has gone right out the window. Get a grip! :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
Sorry to butt in here t020, but you're rising to the bait so much that your usual impeccable attention to detail, grammar etc has gone right out the window. Get a grip! :)

I have to agree here - Yorkie is quite obviously a troll - no-one could really be that stupid and blinded by ideology

I agree with mojo and evil ...

Originally posted by mojoworking
Do you specialise in missing the point?

It's not off topic, because the first half of the simile is a quote from something another member wrote early on in this thread.

I added the second half as a rejoinder later.

You're having a very hard job disproving either statement because both are patently true

Hmmm. To be charitable - maybe we are at cross purposes, but I doubt it.

Here is what you orignally said...
"Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Black Catholic playing centre forward for Glasgow Rangers." You then said Show me a Muslim who would vote for a Jew and I'll show you a Sheffield Tory MP?
The simple truth is that Muslims vote for Jews, and vice-versa. Why do you assert otherwise? I am referring simply to your statement (paraphrasing here) that Muslim's don't vote for Jews. That is quite simply a broad generalisation that is patently totally untrue, and such statements perpetuate race, religious and social divides. That is why they are dangerous racist claptrap.

And Killian... you've lost me. I wasn't claiming that there are no black or asian players at Rangers - mojo was!!!

Attempting to isolate my views as being some sort of quick to judge, PC, lefty, or whatever, (a far right technique they enjoy seeing others adopt) does not take away from the fact that it is racist claptrap.

Originally posted by Tony
Hmmm. To be charitable - maybe we are at cross purposes, but I dount it.

I am referring simply to your statement (paraphrasing here) that Muslim's don't vote for Jews. That is quite simply a broad generalisation that is patently totally untrue, and such statements perpetuate race, religious and social divides. That is why they are dangerous racist claptrap.

Killian... you've lost me. I wasn't claiming that there were no black or asian players at Rangers.

Attempting to isolate my views as being some sort of quick to judge, PC, lefty, or whatever, (a far right technique they enjoy seeing others adopt) does not take away from the fact that it is racist claptrap.

How about this: due to long-standing hostility, Muslims PROBABLY wouldn't vote for a Jew?

Or: For many years, protestant owned and supported Rangers FC USED to have a policy of not signing Catholic players.

Is that better?

Caveating your previous statement doesn't make it any less untrue does it? You revised version is pointless.

Originally posted by Tony
Caveating your previous statement doesn't make it any less untrue does it? You revised version is pointless.


I was revising it in the hope it may sink in, but obviously not.

You can't say I didn't try.

It's still untrue. I don't need to let it sink in - I understood it perfectly first time, and the second and third. You might find this this point in this other thread (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=102236#post102236) has some resonance.

Originally posted by Tony
It's still untrue. I don't need to let it sink in - I understood it perfectly first time, and the second and third. You might find this this point in this other thread (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=102236#post102236) has some resonance.

Just so we're clear: are you saying that Rangers never had a policy of not signing Catholic players?

Now you're trolling.:nono:

But, to humour you... it's irrelevant. You're point (not mine) was that Muslims don't vote for Jews, which is untrue. :roll:

Football politics has nowt to do with it.:loopy:

Now go an do some valuable non-thinking manual work to keep us PC do-gooders in taxes. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Tony
Now you're trolling.:nono:

But, to humour you... it's irrelevant. You're point (not mine) was that Muslims don't vote for Jews, which is untrue. :roll:

Football politics has nowt to do with it.:loopy:

Now go an do some valuable non-thinking manual work to keep us PC do-gooders in taxes. :thumbsup:

But that wasn't MY point. It was Yorkie's. I was simply quoting it.

Don't understand your last statement. It's too cryptic for me.

will be interesting to see what develops and how the vote goes as Blair has said 'no means no' - no fudging, no devil in the detail for it to be reconsidered when certain 'tests' are met etc

'no means no' watch this space!

The Tories are using the referendum as political opportunism, whereas Tony has got the best for Britain in mind.

Tory muck raking is boring.

Originally posted by Yorkie
People earning less than £52,000 pa should never vote Tory.

People earning over £52,000 pa should vote Labour.

Read history.

We should await Tony's instructions on the referendum. :D


So people earning under £52k shouldn't vote Tory, and people voting over £52k should vote Labour?! :loopy: That doesn't make sense now, does it. Unless you're trying to say that no one should vote Tory. As far as I'm aware, political ideals aren't soley based upon annual salary, although traditionally Labour voters are the lower earning working classes.

Also Yorkie, you keep asserting you're love for "Tony" (first name terms, how cute). Ever heard the cliché "Blair is the best Tory Prime Minister the country has ever had"? If you were a real Labour-ite, you'd dislike Tony Blair for bringing the party further to the right under the slogan "New Labour". A real socialist wouldn't support Tony Blair, so not only do you spout ill thought out socialist pap, you do so in contradiction with your love for "your Tony".

Oh, and finally... could you answer the question that both myself and Tony have asked you but so far you have neglected to answer? I will try again until you do, so here goes..... What makes you think you have the right to be paid for by other people who have worked hard for their success? Why should failure be rewarded and success punished?

Originally posted by Tony
And Killian... you've lost me. I wasn't claiming that there are no black or asian players at Rangers - mojo was!!!



yes, i do know that. however you claimed what Mojo said was untrue (and not in your opinion) without offering any facts to back your statement up. i was simply providing them for you, seeing as you generally ask others to provide facts to back up their arguments. still, this is an interesting argument. maybe, with all your knowledge, you could provide some instances when moslems have voted for Jews. not that i don't believe you, just not aware of any instances myself, but i am prepared to learn otherwise.

and yes, Mojo is correct, Rangers did have an anti-Catholic policy right up until media pressure forced them into the token signing of Maurice Johnson in 1989. slightly off-topic, maybe, but still part of the previous argument i think.

Originally posted by t020


So people earning under £52k shouldn't vote Tory,

and people voting over £52k should vote Labour ?!

That doesn't make sense now, does it.

Unless you're trying to say that no one should vote Tory.


Blimey - for a Tory you're quick :D

Originally posted by Killian

and yes, Mojo is correct, Rangers did have an anti-Catholic policy right up until media pressure forced them into the token signing of Maurice Johnson in 1989. slightly off-topic, maybe, but still part of the previous argument i think.

Thanks for that Killian. Some people will try and argue black is, er, white in order to further their idealistic, wishy washy view of how they think the world SHOULD be.

Sadly, it's not like that and never will be, and no amount of intellectual bullying and right-on, PC posturing will make it so.

Originally posted by Killian
maybe, with all your knowledge, you could provide some instances when moslems have voted for Jews. not that i don't believe you, just not aware of any instances myself, but i am prepared to learn otherwise.

Louise Ellman, MP for Riverside constituency of Liverpool is a Jewish MP whom Muslims have voted for. I believe she has even been to the Mosque there too.

Of course, all this did not stop her from recently saying that the Muslim Association of Britain (which helped to organise the anti-war marches) supports terrorism.


Sorry...what was the point of this thread again...?

Originally posted by Abdul
Louise Ellman, MP for Riverside constituency of Liverpool is a Jewish MP whom Muslims have voted for. I believe she has even been to the Mosque there too.

Of course, all this did not stop her from recently saying that the Muslim Association of Britain (which helped to organise the anti-war marches) supports terrorism.


Sorry...what was the point of this thread again...?

I've long forgotten the point of this thread too, Abdul.

The example you mention is an interesting one. I think it's probably fair to say that, given the choice, Muslims would prefer not to vote for a Jew.

However, it's also true to say that ethnic minorities traditionally vote Labour and that's obviously what's happened in Liverpool.

Originally posted by Abdul


Sorry...what was the point of this thread again...?


It was an opportunistic Tory attempt to put down the great leader of our country, Tony Blair, by using the EU referendum as a red herring.

The Labour Party is a group of people dedicated to improving the lives of everybody.

The Conservative/Tory Party is a group of greedy opportunistic people dedicated to improving the lives of themselves.

Leading our country is a very difficult job, not many people could do it, Tony has done a great job, better than most honest people would have thought in 1997.

The Tories took 18 years to ruin our country. Nobody talks about ''The Glorious Conservative Nineties.'' If they were so good, they would still be in Government.

Trust me, Michael Howard is a sinister and devious charactor, ask Anne Widdicombe.

We should unite with Tony for a better country.

Originally posted by mojoworking
The example you mention is an interesting one. I think it's probably fair to say that, given the choice, Muslims would prefer not to vote for a Jew.

However, it's also true to say that ethnic minorities traditionally vote Labour and that's obviously what's happened in Liverpool.

True, but I'd like to think that many Muslims also voted for Ellman because she was a competent MP (certainly, that's the impression given when she spoke at the Mosque, and from what I heard about her when I lived in Liverpool many years ago).

A concern now is that Muslims will be more wary of voting for MPs who, for example, put the interests of Israel above the interest of their own constituents.

I believe there's also a sizable Muslim electorate who vote for Gerald Kaufman MP too (Gorton constituency, Manchester).

Originally posted by Yorkie
We should unite with Tony for a better country.
I was very flattered for a short while. :clap: :thumbsup: :D

Look, there's nothing right on, wishy washy or PC about disagreeing with your quite obviously bizzare assertion that Muslims don't vote for Jews. It is plainly ridiculous. :loopy:

Originally posted by Tony
Look, there's nothing right on, wishy washy or PC about disagreeing with your quite obviously bizzare assertion that Muslims don't vote for Jews. It is plainly ridiculous. :loopy:

You're a sad man Tony. You see racism and bigotry where none exists and are far too quick to condemn even the most innocent of remarks. I've watched you browbeat, bully and generally shout down those who are less articulate than you. If anyone dares stand up to you, then your coterie of like-minded, sycophantic chums can always be relied on to wade in and help you out.
I think you've spent too much time posturing on the forum and have forgotten what it's like out in the real world.

OK then ... lets do a bit more browbeating

... you're earlier statements are still nonsense - how's that for browbeating?

The problem with telling the truth is that it never changes, which is a bit of a problem for bigots, because they rely on telling lies - and that's impossible to maintain for any length of time.

AND!!!...Which real world is this then? I see bigitory all around me, and others attempting to excuse it. Is that not real? Why are you posturing to be so worthy and real world?

Originally posted by Tony


I was very flattered for a short while. :clap: :thumbsup: :D


Even you would be more sincere than Michael Howard.


. . . well . . . just :D

Originally posted by Tony: "AND!!!...Which real world is this then? I see bigitory all around me, and others attempting to excuse it. Is that not real? Why are you posturing to be so worthy and real world?"

Nurse! The screens! He's out of bed again!

Now who's browbeating? How about answering the question instead of resulting to childish jibes?

Originally posted by Tony
Now who's browbeating? How about answering the question instead of resulting to childish jibes?

You were obviously getting hysterical Tony, so I was trying to lighten the mood :)

Don't you worry about me mojo. :thumbsup: ...and the answer to the question is...?

Originally posted by Tony
Don't you worry about me mojo. :thumbsup: ...and the answer to the question is...?

You know those voices in your head telling you not to trust anyone? They're not really there.

Mojo, I don't get the same voices that you do - mine tell me to trust everyone first and let them prove themselves wrong if neccesary. :)

Anyway... the answer is?

There is no racism here Tony. You imagined it.

What was the question again?

Originally posted by Abdul


A concern now is that Muslims will be more wary of voting for MPs who, for example, put the interests of Israel above the interest of their own constituents.




That's understandable. I'm glad Tony Blair is always fair.

Originally posted by Yorkie
That's understandable. I'm glad Tony Blair is always fair.

Thud

Thud

Thud


Abdul, banging his head against the desk


Thanks to SusieP for the inspiration ;)

Originally posted by mojoworking
You see racism and bigotry where none exists and are far too quick to condemn even the most innocent of remarks.

i'm sorry, Tony, but this is the way you come across to me also. i live in the real world and i don't encounter racism and bigotry around every corner as you seem to do. most off your posts appear to end up on this subject. where the hell do you live for God's sake? you say you trust everyone, but that obviously doesn't extend to those on this Forum who you are quick to brand as racist at the first opportunity. i must say that apart from one stupid girl who posted racists remarks two or three weeks back and was rightly shot down in flames never to return, I haven't encountered any racism on this forum. perhaps I'm being naive and don't read into things as you do.

Originally posted by Abdul


Thud

Thud

Thud


Abdul, banging his head against the desk.






LOL.

Eee bye gum lad. :D Careful now. :D

Sorry Killian, but you seemingly accept things that should be intolerable with a shrug. You haven't been around long enough to have seen the time a few months back when we were infested by BNP morons. You would have been shocked at the sympathy they sometimes got - neatly summised as "send the buggers back!".

Mojo says that I'm "far too quick to condemn even the most innocent of remarks", but I'm struggling to think of an example. :confused:

ANYWAY.... enough of this. Can we get back on topic please?

probably not. i'd never heard of the BNP until i came on here. if there is such a thing in Devon then i've never come across it. oh, and we don't have chavs either.

what was the topic again???

Originally posted by Killian
probably not. i'd never heard of the BNP until i came on here. if there is such a thing in Devon then i've never come across it. oh, and we don't have chavs either.

what was the topic again???

Wow, Devon must be so perfect! Surely you have TVs down there though - I know its mainly farms and fields and lagging behind the rest of the planet, but surely you have a TV with which to watch the news and keep up to date with political stories, e.g. the BNP making big gains in places like Burnley?

Originally posted by t020
Wow, Devon must be so perfect! Surely you have TVs down there though - I know its mainly farms and fields and lagging behind the rest of the planet, but surely you have a TV with which to watch the news and keep up to date with political stories, e.g. the BNP making big gains in places like Burnley?

if lagging behind the rest of the planet means not having to be subjected to all this type of stuff then long may we lag behind. not everyone is obsessed with politics as you obviously are. why the hell would i want to know anything about Burnley? couldn't care less how many gains anybody makes there as I don't live anywhere near bloody Burnley.

Sorry, but your attempt to belittle Devon hasn't worked. i would rather live in this little backwater place with all its fields and farms than your sh**hole with all its apparent problems.

incidentally, we may lag behind but at least we are civilised down here. not much evidence of that in your part of the country, or are you jealous because Devon is much nicer than Ecclesall?

.


''Conservative and former Westminster City Council leader Dame Shirley Porter, who was disgraced over a plot to sell off under-priced council houses only to Tory supporters, has agreed to pay a £12 million settlement for her part in the Tory scandal.

Dame Shirley maintained her innocence, saying: "I did nothing wrong but I have decided to bring this case to an end.''



. . . What innocent person would pay a £12 million fine ? This proves that Tories are greedy cheats and rotten to the core. How much Tory scandal remains to be exposed ?

This is why I will trust and support Tony in his EU referendum. :D

And of course there have NEVER ben any dodgy dealings in the Labour party :rolleyes:

Originally posted by evildrneil


And of course there have NEVER ben any dodgy dealings in the Labour party :rolleyes:


Exactly - you took the words out of my mouth.

Originally posted by Killian

incidentally, we may lag behind but at least we are civilised down here. not much evidence of that in your part of the country, or are you jealous because Devon is much nicer than Ecclesall?

No, you just have kidnappings and murders (e.g. girl who went missing in Ilfracombe).

Ecclesall doesn't really have chavs either, and certainly no BNP councillors(!). It was the way you put "oh, and we don't have chavs either" that annoyed me as I found it patronising and an attempt to put down Sheffield.

Originally posted by t020
No, you just have kidnappings and murders (e.g. girl who went missing in Ilfracombe).

Ecclesall doesn't really have chavs either, and certainly no BNP councillors(!). It was the way you put "oh, and we don't have chavs either" that annoyed me as I found it patronising and an attempt to put down Sheffield.

it wasn't meant like that, you simply took it the wrong way. i meant we don't have chavs as opposed to the rest of the country, not Sheffield in particular. anyway, Ilfracombe is North Devon (and almost in Cornwall). Entirely different from South Devon where I come from, just as North and South Yorkshire are different, I expect, though quoting one solitary murder is slightly silly.

I wonder how the snob areas of Sheffield will vote on the referendum.

What are the snob areas of Sheffield these days ? :D

Originally posted by Yorkie
I wonder how the snob areas of Sheffield will vote on the referendum.

What are the snob areas of Sheffield these days ? :D

*cough* Eccleshall *cough* :D

Also Whirlow's quite posh and basically anywhere else up that way..... Hunter's Bar as well is quite well to do, contrary to the beliefs of Coronation Street writers, remember the uproar in the Star when the Harrises, supposedly from Hunters Bar, first debuted on the Street?

Note to the Mods: My mention of Eccleshall as a "snob" area is in no way intended as a wind up of t020, please accept my apologies if it appears to be so.

Originally posted by t020
No, you just have kidnappings and murders (e.g. girl who went missing in Ilfracombe).

Ecclesall doesn't really have chavs either, and certainly no BNP councillors(!). It was the way you put "oh, and we don't have chavs either" that annoyed me as I found it patronising and an attempt to put down Sheffield.

as an aside to my last post, t020, you were the one who had a go at Devon first in reply to a perfectly innocent remark by myself about not having heard of the BNP here in Devon. Does this mean it is perfectly ok for you to be patronising and slate off Devon and that I am not allowed a retaliatory reply? Do you have different rights to everyone else on here then??

Originally posted by Killian
as an aside to my last post, t020, you were the one who had a go at Devon first in reply to a perfectly innocent remark by myself about not having heard of the BNP here in Devon. Does this mean it is perfectly ok for you to be patronising and slate off Devon and that I am not allowed a retaliatory reply? Do you have different rights to everyone else on here then??


It was the way you put "oh, and we don't have chavs either" that annoyed me as I found it patronising and an attempt to put down Sheffield. I think you will you said this *before* my "slate off" of Devon. Scroll up and see. Anyway, less bickering now in the thread - keep the thread on topic. If you have anything else to say on the matter, feel free to PM me. :D

Originally posted by t020
Anyway, less bickering now in the thread - keep the thread on topic. If you have anything else to say on the matter, feel free to PM me. :D

Certainly, your modship.

Tony Blair rules by public consent.

The public wanted a referendum - The public got a referendum.

Michael Howard is devious - Remember the Jeremy Paxman interview.

18 years of Labour will be better than the 18 years of Tories was.

Originally posted by Yorkie
''Conservative and former Westminster City Council leader Dame Shirley Porter, who was disgraced over a plot to sell off under-priced council houses only to Tory supporters, has agreed to pay a £12 million settlement for her part in the Tory scandal.

Dame Shirley maintained her innocence, saying: "I did nothing wrong but I have decided to bring this case to an end.''


Every little helps ;)

Originally posted by Yorkie
Tony Blair rules by public consent.

The public wanted a referendum - The public got a referendum.

Michael Howard is devious - Remember the Jeremy Paxman interview.

18 years of Labour will be better than the 18 years of Tories was.


Blair was reluctant all along to offer a referendum on the EU constitution. Thanks to pressure from the opposition (and a general election next year), he has had a suddent change of heart. How big of him.

Originally posted by t020



Thanks to pressure from the opposition he has had a sudden change of heart.


That's what we want you, as opposition, to believe.

You oppose everything. You are very good opposition, long may you stay that way.

After 18 years of Tory greed, we expected a better country.

The public will never trust greedy Tories again.

Tony will guide us through the referendum when the time comes.

Originally posted by Yorkie
.


''Conservative and former Westminster City Council leader Dame Shirley Porter, who was disgraced over a plot to sell off under-priced council houses only to Tory supporters, has agreed to pay a £12 million settlement for her part in the Tory scandal.

Dame Shirley maintained her innocence, saying: "I did nothing wrong but I have decided to bring this case to an end.''



. . . What innocent person would pay a £12 million fine ? This proves that Tories are greedy cheats and rotten to the core. How much Tory scandal remains to be exposed ?

This is why I will trust and support Tony in his EU referendum. :D

Yorkie, what colour is your kettle?

Peter Mandelson committed a criminal offence when he made a false declaration concerning the mortgage application on his house in Notting Hill, in that he failed to declare the "loan" from Geoffrey Robinson.

Keith Vaz deliberately obstructed the Parliamentary Commissioner, made false declarations concerning his mothers' house in Leicester, and has been less than forthcoming concerning his "business" interests.

Regarding the two above it can only be speculation that influences from within the Cabinet Office meant that they weren't prosecuted.

Mandelson after all is a personal friend of the Prime Minister,

Vaz was the link between the arms dealing corrupt Hindujas and Blair, who was eager to keep his rich Muslim/Indian friends on board



In contrast, let's have a squint at Blair! He has a record that no other British Prime Minister ever had. Five wars in six years.

Then he stands in his own constituency and advocates that the terms of engagement be altered for one country to declare war on another. Who now?

All this time, Mugabe is killing and starving, yet he does nothing about that. Can anybody doubt the reason for some countries to hate Blair and the west?

Then there are GM crops! Over 95% of the population do not want them...he gives the go ahead.

The civil service is now a political machine. He is removing the crown from crown services. The proposed the office of Lord Chancellor is to go, after CENTURIES.

Thousands of asylum seekers pour in without sufficient checks.

And to cap it all, he reckons our kids are too fat. ON YER WAY STUPID WARMONGER BLAIR. King of the world!


Keith Vaz was being interviewed about joining Europe, for which he was very supportive and canvassing for.

When asked several times if that was the wish of his constituents in Leicester, he refused to answer.

Another Blair 'tool'.

Blair is in a hurry to get in the chair of the President and subsequently into the money trough.

Call me sceptical if you wish, I feel the issue is not Britain and the EU; it is the EU and Blair's personal future.

If he is ousted at the next election, from what base would he come from to the permanent EU President's position (a position he himself proposed)

He has also proposed that Mandelson be appointed vice president of the EU. Now I call that a cosy little arrangement.

Blair's main pre-occupation is to be the permanent President of Europe what ever the cost to Britain.

That's my assessment of the EU issue

Don't forget top up fees, Lickszzz. It seems to me that Yorkie doesn't actually know anything about the topic, other than he's been brought up to have a chip on his shoulder and be pro-Labour without even knowing what he's talking about.

Originally posted by Lickszz



That's my assessment of the EU issue


More boring Tory propaganda - with no Tory proposals.


Sheffield cannot trust Tories.

Originally posted by Yorkie
More boring Tory propaganda - with no Tory proposals.


Sheffield cannot trust Tories.

I'm afraid your trolling is getting dull Yorkie - at least give us some of your proper brain free ranting, trolling wild inaccuracies to keep us amused...

I just don't trust Michael Howard and that has nothing to do with his Jewish religion.

Some people believe that he would turn Britain into a Jewish state and a number one target for Muslim terrorists - but that is their opinion.

Tony has introduced a safety net for the low paid with the National Minimum Wage. Tony cares. Greedy Tories only care about greedy profits for their themselves.

I will back Tony all the way with the referendum. :D

Originally posted by t020


Don't forget top up fees, Lickszzz.


Oh yes - don't forget top up fees Lickszzz - you must remember to tax all the low paid workers in order to educate all the Tory rich kids at Oxford and Cambridge.

And don't forget to be a good Tory, try save some money by closing the places where those upstart working class kids try to get educated, like Sheffield.

Well the fact that Blair has decided to have a referendum does not mean anything other than the fact that he wants a third term in office to complete his work. Let him.

If the Tories get voted in, chaos will reign, the wealth that is in society will be transfered to the middle class, interest rates will rise, no ROCKET overnight, triggering a HUGE property slump the likes of which we have never seen, mass unemplyment, all wages pegged in the public sector, the possible re-introduction of a Poll Tax charge on EVERYONE!, no roads being built, the final collapse of the NHS, Howard gloating like the you know what he is and voting himself a huge pay rise to congratulate himself in restoring the Thatcherite policies of denying me you the right to keep the money that you earn in your houses and homes.
Need I say any more, so go ahead!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by bassplayer



If the Tories get voted in, chaos will reign.


I agree.


Those greedy Tories took 18 years to create paradise for the rich.


What did you get ?

Originally posted by bassplayer
denying me you the right to keep the money that you earn in your houses and homes.


Tories believe in low taxation so under Conservative rule you'd be keeping more of your earned money in your home and less of it going to the taxman to fund a highly inefficient public sector. Since Labour got into power, people have seen more and more of their salary going straight out to the taxman, not through rises in income tax (which even Teflon Tony wouldn't be able to pass), but by introducing 60 new stealth taxes. Top up fees are a future example as they are a tax on learning. Labour are throwing money into the blackhole that is the NHS and yielding very little in the form of improved service to the patient, despite how they try to dress up the statistics.

Originally posted by t020


Tories believe in low taxation so under Conservative rule you'd be keeping more of your earned money.


Typical greedy selfish Tory policy. Opportunity knocks.

The low paid benefit by 10 or 22 pence in the pound with tax cuts whilst the greedy Tory fat cats benefit by 40 pence in the pound.

In the meantime, hospitals and schools are starved of cash until Labour is called in to fix the mess, which takes years.

The Tory policy on pensioners is - if they can't pay let them die.

The Tory policy on education is - the lower class don't need it.

The Tories are great opposition - keep it that way.

Originally posted by Yorkie

The low paid benefit by 10 or 22 pence in the pound with tax cuts whilst the greedy Tory fat cats benefit by 40 pence in the pound.



Yes - i.e. people earning more pay more tax, both in terms of percentage of gross income and in actual amounts per year. How is this greedy?

The rest of your post isn't worth replying to and just comes over as pathetic.

The N.H.S. is safe in Tory hands . . .


. . . but they mean the National Hunting Society that shred foxes.


18 years of Tory greed - then Tony comes to fix the need.

Originally posted by Yorkie

18 years of Tory greed - then Tony comes to fix the need.


How has he fixed anything? By saddling students with thousands of pounds worth of debt, soon to rise to tens of thousands when his new tax on learning (aka top up fees) comes in? By overseeing a house price boom that has put many houses out of reach for first time buyers and those on low incomes, and surely a crash and very high negative equity to follow? By leading the country to war under an umbrella of lies and deception? By wasting billions of pounds of tax payers money, pouring it straight down the blackhole of the NHS without reaping any kind of noticeable benefit?

Originally posted by t020
By overseeing a house price boom that has put many houses out of reach for first time buyers and those on low incomes...

Errr....I thought you'd have been delighted that house prices were rising so fast.

Yorkie mate, watch out. There are some true blue Tory diehards on here who blame the introduction of the Minimum wage as being the catalyst for the mass transfer of all those call centre jobs overseas, when everybody knows it was Al Qaeda's fault :loopy: