This has been discussed a bit in the star recently - what do people think of the plans to extend the tram to Rotherham/Dore?

Good idea to do them to Dore/Norton, but not to Rotherham, i see no gain for Sheffield having a link to Rotherham.

Chesterfield maybe... Not Rotherham

Originally posted by "RPG"

i see no gain for Sheffield having a link to Rotherham.
Chesterfield maybe...
So what does Chesterfield offer us that Rotherham doesn't? Just interested to hear your argument, it's obviously well thought out.

Originally posted by "RPG"

Good idea to do them to Dore/Norton, but not to Rotherham, i see no gain for Sheffield having a link to Rotherham.

Chesterfield maybe... Not Rotherham

Part of the problem is though, don't Rotherham contribute to the tram with their taxes? I would have thought it only fair to extend it to there ASAP.

Originally posted by "geoffbowen"

i see no gain for Sheffield having a link to Rotherham.
Chesterfield maybe...
So what does Chesterfield offer us that Rotherham doesn't? Just interested to hear your argument, it's obviously well thought out.

because its a town of both heretige and history, as well as having a good market, town center, and shopping complex it has alot more to offer than rotherham with its town center pretty much all but closed on a saturday :| alot of the traffic out of sheffield bus wise is to chesterfield not rotherham

seems to be the planners have missed the point. The idea of the tram is great but why doesn't it link the main hospital in Sheffield with the rest of the network. Joining the NGH either from Meadowhell or Hillsborough would seem far sensibler than linking in Dore? Also the link to Rotherham from Meadowhall would be a real winner, so obvious really..

I am in favour of extending the Tram anywhere possible. When the Tram was first imposed I was initially against it. Now that it's in place we may as well make it the best service possible.

its daft how to get to Dore and norton the tram will go into town :|

why not carry on at herdings :|

Originally posted by "Internetowl"

but why doesn't it link the main hospital in Sheffield with the rest of the network. Joining the NGH either from Meadowhell or Hillsborough would
:shock: :shock:

Yeah very good point. The NGH is a nightmare. If they can't afford to extend the tram there, then they can at least put up some new signs and make it easy for "I've-never-been-to-NGH-and-now-it's-an-emergency" people. :lol:

Extend supertram? super idea as far and wide as possible we want as many links to this city as we can have. It is the only way to travel if one has not got a car and there are many who havent.

It is the best idea since sliced bread, sleek, fast, warm, comfortable, cheap, what more do you want?

The Manchester trams have a much much much larger radius than ours. Not quite sure what my point ism but there you go.

In general I think that more tram routes are a good idea.

Before they do that, though, I'd like to see them put more trams on the existing routes - at peak times one tram every 10 mins is not enough.

I've often thought it's a shame Sheffield doesn't have the same kind of local rail network that you find in Manchester, with mant of the outlying areas having their own rail stations with links to the city centre. Perhaps Supertram is our chance to put that right.

but remember, the manc. one coverers "greater manchester" which is huuuuuuge and their trams can travel on rail track

i'm not sure linking in dore is worthwhile and personally i don't want the tram at this end of the city anyway. i think however linking in rotherham is a good idea as most the people at meadowhall are from rotherham and as if they can afford cars over there anyway. only joking! don't get me started on the council trying to push us out of cars though. take the crossroads of abbey lane and abbeydale road south for example.... what a joke. they are deliberately using bus lanes, traffic islands, humps, extra crossings, etc etc, to increase congestion and attempt to force people into using public transport. shame is though that public transport is a joke, especially the buses! when i used to go on a bus i found they are often early, late, full at rush hour yet use single deckers so everyone has to stand, extremely rude and abrupt drivers, and besides, i don't enjoy waiting around in the rain for a lift, i'd rather drive. why can the council not accept this? it will be congestion charges next.... congestion engineered by the council themselves.

I reckon, where ever they want to extend the tram route too, will be a benefit to the city!
I regularly use the tram and find it a les stressful way of getting to and from work!

No traffic jams (because the lights always give trams the right of way), comfortable and only £7 per week for 7 days unlimited travel..... [censored] bargin if you ask me!

Although, a tram I was on crashed at the begining of this year on Ridgeway Road which put me off for a little while. But it wasn't the drivers fault so no biggie! Dint claim for fake whip lash injuries either, which I'm proud of!

A tram link linking Meersbrook to town and to Norfolk Park, please :)

I personally think they're missing a big trick by not linking us who live in the neighbourhoods Chesterfield Road goes through. Talk about a load of young and old green-types who'd definitely use the service.

Then again, not being able to ever take your bike onto the tram could be a problem. I realise there's a space issue at peak times, but how is that an integrated and sustainable transport system? I wouldn't drive to work if

a. bus companies would run a cross-neighbourhoods service more than once an hour peak time and the drivers weren't misanthropic case studies

b. i could cycle 3/4s of the way downhill to work then put myself and my bike on the tram to get up to the top of Norfolk Park hill

c. i could cycle 3/4s of the way downhill home and catch a tram at least part of the way up my hill.
(the horrors of living and working on two massive hills separated by a large valley :lol: )

For those who think this is very lazy, you try it. :lol: I also suffer a knee condition where 'moderate cycling only' is the rules. There's nothing moderate about those two hills
Oh, and dogs - how is not being able to take my dog on the tram with me to a different park or to the vets integrated transport? :evil:

Laura,
goes off muttering about elitist trams and dog haters and hills and bicycles

Originally posted by "senseofplace"

A tram link linking Meersbrook to town and to Norfolk Park, please :)

I personally think they're missing a big trick by not linking us who live in the neighbourhoods Chesterfield Road goes through. Talk about a load of young and old green-types who'd definitely use the service.

Then again, not being able to ever take your bike onto the tram could be a problem. I realise there's a space issue at peak times, but how is that an integrated and sustainable transport system? I wouldn't drive to work if

a. bus companies would run a cross-neighbourhoods service more than once an hour peak time and the drivers weren't misanthropic case studies

b. i could cycle 3/4s of the way downhill to work then put myself and my bike on the tram to get up to the top of Norfolk Park hill

c. i could cycle 3/4s of the way downhill home and catch a tram at least part of the way up my hill.
(the horrors of living and working on two massive hills separated by a large valley :lol: )

For those who think this is very lazy, you try it. :lol: I also suffer a knee condition where 'moderate cycling only' is the rules. There's nothing moderate about those two hills
Oh, and dogs - how is not being able to take my dog on the tram with me to a different park or to the vets integrated transport? :evil:

Laura,
goes off muttering about elitist trams and dog haters and hills and bicycles

Agreed on ALL points there Laura!

Trams are expensive. They are VERY expensive! Remember all that track which was laid just over 10 years ago will soon be ready for replacement. Is there a fund within the city council or Stagecoach who currenntly operate the tramway for track renewal?

This was the reason many tramways (including Sheffield's) closed first time around, and I have a horrible feeling it's all going to happen again.

Basically, to make a tramway financially viable you need lots of trams travelling over the rail on a very frequent basis, all full of passengers. I'm worried about the line throuigh the Norfolk Park area now most of the tower blocks have gone and Crystal Peaks seems to be loosing some of it's attraction to visitors.

The trams themselves are also looking a bit shabby recently.

Time for a little investment in the current network I think, before the bills get too high. Then think about extending things later.

Fully agree Andy, its going to be a big problem if your right about re-newing the tracks, not only financially but massive road works to contend with.
I know the rails don,t last for eternity but lets hope they last more than 10 years.

The original lasted a bit longer than 10 years didn't it? Did the tracks need renewing on a frequent basis for that system?

You should drive along White Lane at Gleadless,the concrete around the tracks is breaking up. I have noticed that the track around Halfway has been made alot smoother recently, not sure what they have done to it?.
the stations look alot better now that they have been painted along with some of the bridges( norfolk park).

One final point surely its about time there was a park and ride at Herdings park.

Ive discovered some information concerning the tram extensions. The display the proposed route to the various area's put foward. If Im right, looks like one of them from City Centre to Totley is going down Bramall Lane! Wohooo! Ideal for match days :)

|Preferred Network (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%201%20PREFERRED%20NETWORK.pdf)|
|City Centre To Heeley (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.1.pdf)|
|Heeley To Totley (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.2.pdf)|
|City Centre To Brinsworth (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.3.pdf)|
|Brinsworth To Hellaby (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.4.pdf)|
|City Centre To Ranmoor (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A2.1.pdf)|
|Meadowhall To Rawmarsh (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A2.2.pdf)|
|Rawmarsh To Wath (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A2.3.pdf)|
|City Centre To Norton Woodseats (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A3.1.pdf)|
|Norton Woodseats To Lowedges (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A3.2.pdf)|
|City Centre To The Northern General Hospital (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A3.3.pdf)|
|Information About The Routes Considered (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/PTA%20SUPERTRAM%20EXT%208%20MAY%2003%20APPX%20A.pd f)|
|Evaluation Of Options Considered (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/PTA%20SUPERTRAM%20EXT%208%20MAY%2003%20APPX%20B.pd f)|
|Recommendations (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/PTA%20SUPERTRAM%20EXT%208%20MAY%2003.pdf)|

Hope You All Find This Information Relevant & Intresting.
If plans on these pages go ahead, I think it would make the supertram system one of the best in the country and make it very financially viable!

why the tram doesnt continue up to norton from herdings park is beyond me :?

Originally posted by RPG
why the tram doesnt continue up to norton from herdings park is beyond me :?

Might just be the problem gradiant of the hills. Also the length of the journey. People may choose to take the bus if the journey time on the supertram to norton or woodseats exceeds that of the bus. also cost of the fare! many things to be taken into account :)

Originally posted by rickmiles85
Ive discovered some information concerning the tram extensions. The display the proposed route to the various area's put foward. If Im right, looks like one of them from City Centre to Totley is going down Bramall Lane! Wohooo! Ideal for match days :)

|Preferred Network (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%201%20PREFERRED%20NETWORK.pdf)|
|City Centre To Heeley (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.1.pdf)|
|Heeley To Totley (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.2.pdf)|
|City Centre To Brinsworth (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.3.pdf)|
|Brinsworth To Hellaby (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A1.4.pdf)|
|City Centre To Ranmoor (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A2.1.pdf)|
|Meadowhall To Rawmarsh (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A2.2.pdf)|
|Rawmarsh To Wath (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A2.3.pdf)|
|City Centre To Norton Woodseats (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A3.1.pdf)|
|Norton Woodseats To Lowedges (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A3.2.pdf)|
|City Centre To The Northern General Hospital (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/Fig%20A3.3.pdf)|
|Information About The Routes Considered (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/PTA%20SUPERTRAM%20EXT%208%20MAY%2003%20APPX%20A.pd f)|
|Evaluation Of Options Considered (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/PTA%20SUPERTRAM%20EXT%208%20MAY%2003%20APPX%20B.pd f)|
|Recommendations (http://www.southyorks.org.uk/pta/8%20May%202003/PTA%20SUPERTRAM%20EXT%208%20MAY%2003.pdf)|

Hope You All Find This Information Relevant & Intresting.
If plans on these pages go ahead, I think it would make the supertram system one of the best in the country and make it very financially viable!

I can't see this mammoth list of extentions been taken on all at once. I think it could be many many years before all this would be completed.

While on a tram on city road, a group of thugs threw a brick at the window. No-one was injured, but there was an old lady sat by the window that the brick went through and I think she was terribly shocked, poor old lass!

LOL. Well thats nothing compared to me! :evil:
Going back to September last year. Derby Day: Hillsborough.

Sheffield Wednesday 2 - 0 Sheffield United

Caught the tram going into the city centre. Arrived at one stop and the tram was just waiting to depart again. This little piggy boy walked passed and gave me the "f**k o**" sign with his fingers! :o Cheeky guit! But I suppose given the chance I would have done the same if my team had won! :lol: Ahh well slightly off subject but nevermind. One of my bad experiences on a tram!

Originally posted by Lickszz
I can't see this mammoth list of extentions been taken on all at once. I think it could be many many years before all this would be completed.

Me neither mate. Sheffield is congested enough without tram work! One would hate to think how it would be with just one stage of a new tram extension being built, let along five or six! :P

P.S: EXCUSE THE USE OF ONE! 8)

Originally posted by rickmiles85
Might just be the problem gradiant of the hills. Also the length of the journey. People may choose to take the bus if the journey time on the supertram to norton or woodseats exceeds that of the bus. also cost of the fare! many things to be taken into account :)

Hills, what hills :P

Its a long flat route they could easily do there like they did from Sheffield Uni to shalesmoor
Bus Vs Tram....

Tram ALWAYS wins ;)

It'd be used by ALOT of students going to Norton/Meadowhead So fair payback wouldnt be a problem I dont think

but yeah, i suppose lots have to be thought about other than the above

True, the buses look pretty dodgy!
Very clapped out indeed! Suprised they have lasted sooo long! :P

BRING BACK THE BENDY BUSES! :D

lol, or mount some trams on tyres ;) :lol:

lol! 8) hehe :P

Originally posted by unners

One final point surely its about time there was a park and ride at Herdings park.
Depends on if you'd like wheels on your car when you get back!:lol:

Originally posted by RPG
lol, or mount some trams on tyres ;) :lol:

They used to do that you know - they were called Trolley Busses.

Took power from overhead wires, but drove along normal road surfaces.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Depends on if you'd like wheels on your car when you get back!:lol:

:wave: LMAO!!!:wave:

Do you remember when they had noise and vibration problems to solve when track laying in the city centre? When they dug the road up, they found the old tracks below, mounted on rubber supports, that were a better design than the modern solution!

I travelled on the tram at the weekend, from Meadowhall to Castle Square, And found it relly convienient as a Park-and-ride, what with all the free parking at Meadowhall and the difficulty of finding a space in the city centre. As an occasional visitor to the city and also mhaving family on the outskirts at Mosborough, I found it realy convinient and cheap to boot, on a par with London transport, if not, cheaper.I think the residents of Sheffield should be proud of this superb asset the City has, and any extention should be welcomed with open arms.

the link to dore only goes where the bus already goes. but it starts right on the outskirts of dore and totley so most people will have to catch a bus to the tram (stupid) or walk (in my case 20 min walk). and i bet when the tram is working the buses will stop so i will be f****d

Originally posted by Chris
The original lasted a bit longer than 10 years didn't it? Did the tracks need renewing on a frequent basis for that system?

Yes, the original tram track was renewed on a frequent basis. It wears out faster on corners or places where trams accelerate or decelerate rapidly such as pulling away from junctions etc.

In certain circumstances track life can be reduced to as little as 5 years.

In years gone by there was a fleet of engineering vehicles which helped maintain the tracks and overhead wires. Supertram have no such vehicles as far as I am aware, so the question of how ongoing maintenance is carried out rears it's head.

The track on the current system is laid in two different ways. On the reserved track it is similar to a railway on conventional sleepers. However, on the 'street running' sections a new method was used. This involved digging a large trench out of the road and filling it with concrete, leaving two grooves where the rails would later be placed. Once the concrete was fully set the rails were dropped into place and held in position by pouring some kind of fast setting resin between the rail and the sides of the concrete groove, so allowing fine adjustments of the track guage to be made.

I remember on one occasion the resin was not fast enough and when workers returned to the track the following morning the rails had drifted apart and had to be relaid. Just one of the catalogue of errors from the original build!

I hope this clears a few tech points up.

Andy.

I agree with Lickxx, if we have something why restrict it? Make the most of it, invest in it. It's a bit like BT with Broadband, they have the technology but don't want to push on with it. Anyway, were still waiting for repairs to our horse and cart track at Deepcar. There's a deep rut where owd Jess got stuck wi't plough last week. Supertram wossat??

From what I can tell, it look like a new bridge is being built over the parkway, about halfway between the roundabout at bottom prince of wales road and city center.

Is this the start of a new route for super tram or something else?

This was a few months back, don't know what the current status is and at the time it was looking as if it going to extend over the parkway. The bridge like structure looks rather similar to the current tram bridge that rises up from bottm end of high street to the roundabout.

Personally I think the extensions to Ranmoor, Rotherham, Abbeydale and Hellaby are great...


The only worry I have is that Rotherham will become a ghost town and jusyt commute into Sheffield - It does that to an extent already but this will not help.

I still cannot believe that the original tram network did not go to one of the hospitals - Is that not stupid or what....

Originally posted by Fraser
I still cannot believe that the original tram network did not go to one of the hospitals - Is that not stupid or what....

Yup very stupid. Its still only proposed to go to one even know :o Dont they know how difficult it is to get to Northern General from the other side of town?

They should extend it up ecclesall road, London Road and right up the parkway to the M1 and build a park and ride right by the motorway.

That would make it usefull for the students, residents and visitors as well :D

There is a saying - all politicians are the same, they promise to build a bridge even when you haven't got a river. T'other day noticed a comment that they are going to re-build or re-open Victoria Station. Why did they close it?
They have now started supertram. Why did they close the trams down in 1960? One of the reasons was that trams are immobile, and any problem on the tracks can cause a great big hassle, with traffic jams.
In Australia, where I now live, two States have re-opened railway lines which they closed ten or twenty years ago. They are now viable, they tell us. Is there no thought for the future in these decisions???

Why oh why when they first thought of the trams didn't they go thru to parsons cross via pitsmoor, firvale,firthpark(NGH) a large mass of bodies live in these areas that need public transport to get to and from work, and why go out to chapletown,as for the busses, when they deregulated (Thanx Maggie) it all went to crock, they now cause most of the congestion.

I've been using supertram for 3 yrs now to get to work and am getting fed up with it. Not bad in the mornings - just 30 mins from Middlewood to Carbrook. But in the evening (5.05 tram from Carbrook) it usually takes 50 mins,- and an hour is not unusual, to get back to Middlewood. Door to door by car takes just 25 mins at either time.

During my five years at secondary school I used the old tram system and that was miles better than supertram - they could carry more sitting passengers, I don't remember one breaking down on me, but they had recovery trams to tow the few that did break down, they were as fast as supertram and only took half the room on the road, they weren't phased by the weather and always ran when the buses were 'snowed off'- best of all the driver couldn't shut the doors on you just as you were about to get on !!! :evil:

Never understood why they were scrapped. True they did incovenience car users but in those days it was only the middle class people has cars...perhaps that's the real reason. All those solicitors, bank managers and businessmen sat fuming in their cars behind trams full of proles.

More supertram will be an expensive mistake...why not electric bendi-buses with reserved trackways where needed....or diesel/electric bendi-buses that can go anywhere - isn't this the system they're adopting in Leeds ?

GB

Supertram is an excellent system, it is comfortable and reliable, and the off-road sections are reasonably fast. The fares aren't too bad either. Trams can attract people out of cars, buses cannot. Just compare the success of the tram based park and rides with the bus based one at Millhouses that no-one seems to use.

As a Bradway resident, I would welcome trams running from Dore, we would finally get some decent public transport. The current Firstbus service is a joke - the fares are a rip off (over the last few months the return fare has gone up from £1.80 to £2.50), route 25a is run on a shoestring, routes 97/97a buses often don't turn up, and both stop running at 11pm - no good for getting home from a big night out or off a late shift. Looking at the Crystal Peaks experience, as soon as Supertram starts up First bus are forced to compete and lays on a more frequent service and a later last bus.

However, one thing I would say is surely it would cost less to pay for improvements to the existing railway - there is a station at Dore, connected to the city centre by a high speed line, with trains only taking 8 minutes and fares that are cheaper than the bus - just need a train a bit more frequent than once every 2 hours....

I think Dore station has a more frequent service than every 2 hours look at Manchester to Shefield Train Times (http://www.firstnorthwestern.co.uk/timetables/Sum2003/tt05.pdf)
and as bonus some of the trains go to Man Airport so you can connect with your Benidorm flight. :)

Originally posted by andy1702
Trams are expensive. They are VERY expensive! Remember all that track which was laid just over 10 years ago will soon be ready for replacement. Is there a fund within the city council or Stagecoach who currenntly operate the tramway for track renewal?
This was the reason many tramways (including Sheffield's) closed first time around, and I have a horrible feeling it's all going to happen again.

This is scaremongering! You seem not to mention that it is only the sharp bends which potentially need to be replaced at 10-15 year intervals. Straight runs of track last for 30 years and upwards. This is far longer than the roads would last with the equivalent number of people riding on buses.

(RPG- Fixed quote tags)

The Tram is 10x better than crappy buses, ive not been on a sheffield bus since the tram opened nearly (mebby the odd one or two and that was forced!) and i have no trouble getting around the city!

If they god rid of the tram there would be massive outcry!

Every time I see this thread pop up I keep imagining Supertram with dreadlocks. Is it because I is odd?

I wasnt alive in the age of steam but i found out a fact that 20% of all freight on the railways originated in Sheffield. It would be good if Victoria Station reopened but would it still do the woodhead route to Manchester? Im not sure about this but is there enough room for it at the back of the Holiday Inn now? The Woodhead route used to be electrified didnt it?

Originally posted by Andy
This has been discussed a bit in the star recently - what do people think of the plans to extend the tram to Rotherham/Dore?


Double the existing track !!!

The line that goes to the Waverley development looks good. If you look at the 52 (Woodhouse-Crookes) bus route in a morning, it is always packed to standing room only. A few trams doing the route would make a much more pleasant journey.

OK, maybe it is just me but surely arent most (not all) of you overlooking a major aspect in the supertram extension. As a now-resident of your fine city, a few years back i felt it beneficial if not essential to learn some of the history and culture of the area, hence how i know this.

Sheffield, who have - lets face it benefitted incredibly from the massive influx in students over the past few years, has a proud history of Industry (once heavily in competition with London) and despite the facade of many modern office/residential blocks - it still does not detract from the fact that Sheffield as a city is run on a shoestring budget as it is, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. This history is prominent today, in as much as Government funding within South Yorkshire is limited, more so than other locations such as Berkshire, West Yorkshire, Avon etc.

With this in mind, regeneration within Sheffield and its surrounding environs has been slow to say the least compared to other urban centres such as Leeds, Bristol, Nottingham, Newcastle. However, much needed European Funding was made available to Sheffield to encourage a transport link between the more improverished areas of the city to the central zone. These finances could not stretch to incorporate areas such as the Northern General Hospital - as were laid down as condition guidelines to funding receipt (as far as i have been told). Any extension to the existing supertram infrastructure needs to be economically viable. You can do as much research and development as you like, but if ppl don't travel frequently on the service - any extension is neglegable. Businesses who benefit from potential tram route consumers will be asked to contribute to its funding, neither joe the tyre fitter nor jane the tv aerial installer will be too happy to contribute.

If it were down to image alone, i wholeheartedly agree with an extension - i love the supertram, what it represents - and it was a major attraction which led to my move to Sheffield.......but it would be naive to believe only benefits will arise for both commuters and business alike. Think outside of the box people!!!!

I would agree with a tram connection up Ecclesall Road, after all something needs to be done about the almost constant gridlock of traffic. However, if you think about the practicality for just a moment - it would be next-to-impossible to achieve. Where would you propose all those cars parked either side should be housed during the day?, the tree-lined appearance would be considerably altered to account for overhead cabling and the road would be scarred by concrete, the laydown of the track itself would be a nightmare, Berkeley centre would need to be changed to accomodate for an influx in consumers. Even the Hunters Bar roundabout gate would need to be moved (old skool wont like that). Basically - unless gas-powered hovercraft-style trams become commonplace.........dont hold your breath on that happening!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, as part of Chapter 2 (lol) i would just like to clarify a separate point made previously about BT Broadband. As a broadband customer, i know what you are saying relating to its poor availability and general distribution but on the flipside (an an ex employee) i can tell you that BT are restricted by OFTEL as to what they are allowed to supply the customer, they may hold a large proportion of telephone exchanges but they have been forced to allow for competors to establish themselves, creating an oligopoly market (fair competition). Until restrictions are lifted, BT can only limit the hurdle they will need to climb in the future, by setting up their own hurdles for other suppliers to jump!!! Have pity on our multi-billion pound multinationals!! lol


***JUMPS DOWN OFF HIS SOAPBOX***

Originally posted by richard
The Manchester trams have a much much much larger radius than ours. Not quite sure what my point ism but there you go.

IMO they should link the trams in Manchester to ours here in Sheffield.

That would be great.

Sorry but is the point of a transport system to go where people want to go.
So many people in sheffield work or visit hospitals, and the most popular bus route in sheffield the 52. The new tram does not go to any of these places, useful?

Originally posted by Rich
IMO they should link the trams in Manchester to ours here in Sheffield.


One of the local radio stations reported that this was going to happen, with the two systems being linked via the Woodhead Railway. The date of this report was April 1st....

Originally posted by MongMental
I think Dore station has a more frequent service than every 2 hours look at Manchester to Shefield Train Times (http://www.firstnorthwestern.co.uk/timetables/Sum2003/tt05.pdf)
and as bonus some of the trains go to Man Airport so you can connect with your Benidorm flight. :)

Yes, it's true there are times when we get an hourly Dore-Sheffield train service instead of alternate hours, sadly it's Saturday and Sunday when there are very few commuters.

On weekdays there are no trains back from town between 17:15 and 19:15, forcing a tortuous bus ride home.

Originally posted by chalicefc3

I would agree with a tram connection up Ecclesall Road, after all something needs to be done about the almost constant gridlock of traffic. However, if you think about the practicality for just a moment - it would be next-to-impossible to achieve. Where would you propose all those cars parked either side should be housed during the day?, the tree-lined appearance would be considerably altered to account for overhead cabling and the road would be scarred by concrete, the laydown of the track itself would be a nightmare, Berkeley centre would need to be changed to accomodate for an influx in consumers. Even the Hunters Bar roundabout gate would need to be moved (old skool wont like that).


This would be a nightmare. The road is already too small to handle the traffic volume, and would become even smaller with a big tramline down the middle. People would still use their cars, and so the traffic would be more condensed. There'd be no room for parked cars/ a bus lane either. A tramline down Ecclesall Road would be an eyesore and I for one don't want it at this half of the city. To solve the traffic problem on Ecclesall Road, get rid of the Bus Lanes, and at the Network Q Vauxhall, where the road reduces from 2 lanes to 1 coming out of town, widen the road and narrow the pavement in order to overcome this nasty bottleneck.

Originally posted by t020
widen the road and narrow the pavement

... reduce the space the pedestrians have to walk in, lowering the number of people using the shops there, shops close, no cars parked on roads, bingo! traffic problem solved ;) I'm not advocating a tram line going down Ecclesall Road, but the area is popular because it is pleasant for pedestrians to use (have a walk down Abbeydale Road or Woodseats and you'll see the difference). The quality of the pedestrian spaces on Ecclesall Road have to be maintained to maintain this popularity. And besides, you can improve this bit of Ecclesall Road all you like to maintain traffic throughput and it won't make a vast difference. In my experience, the biggest bottleneck is at Hunter's Bar.

Its awful going down ecclesall road between the times of about 8.30 - 9.00am and 4.30 - 6.00pm its just gridlock because of the roundabouts at either end and its so frustrating as it uses up so much petrol. It doesnt make sense to me that a road so widely used is so narrow but i cant see that anything can be done about it other than build some kind of space age 2 level road system or split level tram/road system which would double the space or some kind of bypass but i cant think where that would go at all as its so built up round there. I guess we'll just have to put up with it until driving becomes so expensive only the very rich can do it.

The roundabout from Eccy Road into St Mary's Gate has at least 4 lanes (might be more, I drive too fast to count) and they are generally solid with traffic at peak times. Making Eccy Road wider and speeding up throughput would only exacerbate this problem.

I agree with Chris that part of the popularity of the area is the pleasantness of the pedestrian areas, reduce those and E Rd would become just like Prince of Wales Road - a means of getting from A to B with houses set right back and very few shops.

Does anybody know when the 'green light' will be given to start work?? or havent they decided wether its a good idea or not?

Is there any new news on this subject?

Originally posted by RPG
why the tram doesnt continue up to norton from herdings park is beyond me :?

I wrote to Supertram 3 Years ago with the same suggestion (Still Waiting for a letter:mad: )

Run the tram from Herding Park along the Bochum Parkway to the other side of Meaowhead Roundabout:thumbsup:
Then on the land where the Sheffield Transport Golf course is built a very very large Park & Ride

This would reduce traffic thought Woodseats + people would have the choice of the TRAM or bus service 15,18,25a,39,43,53,75 etc etc ( If there is any drivers to drive them that is ):mad:

Originally posted by Mr BusDriver
I wrote to Supertram 3 Years ago with the same suggestion (Still Waiting for a letter:mad: )

Run the tram from Herding Park along the Bochum Parkway to the other side of Meaowhead Roundabout:thumbsup:
Then on the land where the Sheffield Transport Golf course is built a very very large Park & Ride

This would reduce traffic thought Woodseats + people would have the choice of the TRAM or bus service 15,18,25a,39,43,53,75 etc etc ( If there is any drivers to drive them that is ):mad:

also the people who go to the college and school up there can use it

Originally posted by qazitory
[B]also the people who go to the college and school up there can use it

Thats Right:thumbsup:
Just think of all the money they would get, the service would pay itself 10 times over:D

A tram extension up to Fulwood, Ranmoor and Crosspool would be great.

Also extend north to Chapeltown :)

I'd love a tram to run from Chap, through Ecco and then all the way to town (possibly via Hillsborough).. but I can't think of anywhere it could go.. ALL the roads round Ecco were built in the olden days when there were few cars, hence them all being very narrow.

Traffic is always shocking getting into Ecco since Morrisons had all the traffic lights put in, perhaps scrap the Police Station and start a track there? Running alongside Wooley Wood bottom and joining onto Meadowhall's tram tracks?..

Definitely link all the hospitals together - that would ease congestion and the parking problems

Originally posted by GazB
I'd love a tram to run from Chap, through Ecco and then all the way to town (possibly via Hillsborough).. but I can't think of anywhere it could go.. ALL the roads round Ecco were built in the olden days when there were few cars, hence them all being very narrow.

Traffic is always shocking getting into Ecco since Morrisons had all the traffic lights put in, perhaps scrap the Police Station and start a track there? Running alongside Wooley Wood bottom and joining onto Meadowhall's tram tracks?..

Top idea i think that! even if it meant getting off one tram at mederhell and getting on another its still a viable solution.

do you live in chap then gaz?

Is there still an abandoned railway trackbed between Tinsley/Meadowhall and Ecclesfield?

That said I don't think they justify the investment - there is already a train service Meadowhall-Chapeltown and I cannot imagine the existing Yorkshire Terrier bus service that does goes from Meadowhall through Chapeltown is that busy.

Extending trams Herdings-Meadowhead sounds a brilliant idea, the worry I have though is the journey time from town would be very long, and the 25/75 bus would be quicker, except for when Woodseats is gridlocked (that'll be all day then. ahem.)

I support extending the tram to Dore/Totley, although it does seem annoying that the same benefits could probably be achieved cheaper with a package of improvements to bus and train infrastructure in the area, but the will isn't there to do that.

Curse the sad combination of SYPTE and Firstbus that we are saddled with in Sheffield.

This may be a stupid suggestion, but concerning the Ecclesall Road problem, how about underground? :confused: then re-emerging somewhere further up the road?

Originally posted by rickmiles85
This may be a stupid suggestion, but concerning the Ecclesall Road problem, how about underground? :confused: then re-emerging somewhere further up the road?

Trouble with that though is that it would involve ripping Eccy road completely to shreds to lay the underground tracks and stuff, I don't think there's many folk who would stand for that.

Originally posted by Nick[Blarg]
Top idea i think that! even if it meant getting off one tram at mederhell and getting on another its still a viable solution.

do you live in chap then gaz?

Nope, Ecco. Only just moved there though, used to live near Firth Park.

Originally posted by Rich
Trouble with that though is that it would involve ripping Eccy road completely to shreds to lay the underground tracks and stuff, I don't think there's many folk who would stand for that.

That's only if they 'cut and covered' it though, what about if they tunneled further below with a shield or boring machine... more like the lower level London Underground lines.

I've no idea on the costs of tunnels for the distances involved, but would make for an incredibly quick journey and from the affluent areas where commuters could really save time getting into town, perhaps it could pay for itself quicker than trams running within traffic.

Works in all the proper 'European cities of significance' anyway...

Another point I was going to raise a while ago.

I noticed one of the suggested routes for the extension (one of the better ones) went down Bramall Lane. The route ran from the current lines at Castle Square, down Arundel Gate and Eyre Street.

A couple of years ago they filled in the Furnival Square underpass along Eyre Street, and are currently reworking the roads to be narrower.

Wouldn't it have been a better idea to keep the underpass (that had a dual carriage way running through it to bypass the roundabout) and run the tram straight through to Bramall Lane (with the current underpass under the inner ring road too).

It would have also made sense as they're building a mini-interchange for buses at Arundel Gate at Castle Square, outside TJ Hughes. That could have incorporated tram platforms too.

Originally posted by max
Every time I see this thread pop up I keep imagining Supertram with dreadlocks. Is it because I is odd?


You are a mod now, you dont have to put up with it any more!

Originally posted by tombeharrell

A couple of years ago they filled in the Furnival Square underpass along Eyre Street, and are currently reworking the roads to be narrower.

Wouldn't it have been a better idea to keep the underpass (that had a dual carriage way running through it to bypass the roundabout) and run the tram straight through to Bramall Lane

Sounds like common sense to me, or even just leave it for bus's only, oh well history now.

But the tram has got to be extended sooner than later, but I am afraid its always going to be cheaper overland than underground.

Originally posted by Andy C


Extending trams Herdings-Meadowhead sounds a brilliant idea, the worry I have though is the journey time from town would be very long, and the 25/75 bus would be quicker, except for when Woodseats is gridlocked (that'll be all day then. ahem.)

I support extending the tram to Dore/Totley, although it does seem annoying that the same benefits could probably be achieved cheaper with a package of improvements to bus and train infrastructure in the area, but the will isn't there to do that.

Curse the sad combination of SYPTE and Firstbus that we are saddled with in Sheffield.


A Big hand for Andy:clap:

You have hit the nail on the head for every answer.

However Andy would it be quicker by bus ?

My record is 28 mins on a route 75 to get from the Safeway to the bottom of Woodseats Road:mad:

They could allways make the trams from Meadowhead a semi-fast service?.

I read something on Sheffieldtoday.net yesterday I think it was. Where people were disagreeing with the supertram up thier end. Why not put a loop of the track instead of feeding two tracks up one road? (the smallest and most congested) and bringing the looped tracks together at a more convienient point. Also I feel that the route up towards dore could possibly come down a street near the proposed new shopping area. This I feel would attract people in that direction and then in years to come more shops could be built around it. Maybe coming off abit higher up west street past the town hall. Coming down a road and joining onto Charter Row. Maybe at the end where the roudabout is which then links onto Ecclesall Road could be left for future expansion and the tram could then go maybe above ground or underground to the next roundabout near Bramall Lane and re-emerge. Going underground for that stretch would mean less disruption when its being built and also less problems when the tram is there having to wait for it to be allowed onto the road through singles and traffic lights which would disrupt traffic flow. But it could go down Shoreham street instead because that is less congested on the other side of SUFC. But still serve the football club. It could then join onto Queens Road. Just a thought. What do others think about my thoughts?

Originally posted by fuzzy
Sorry but is the point of a transport system to go where people want to go.
So many people in sheffield work or visit hospitals, and the most popular bus route in sheffield the 52. The new tram does not go to any of these places, useful?

Indeed, the nearest tram stop is the University stop at the junction between Glossop Road, West St and St Mary's Gate.

Originally posted by Andy
This has been discussed a bit in the star recently - what do people think of the plans to extend the tram to Rotherham/Dore?

It should be the Southey/Parson Cross/Ecclesfield loop :

Middlewood Road
Leppings Lane
Herries Road
Moonshine Lane
Southey Hill
Wordsworth Avenue
Monteney Road
Yew Lane
(between Mansel and Yewlands schools)
Halifax Road
Leppings Lane
Middlewood Road

Supertram is fantastic - when you can use it.

how about using old railway track beds like what manchester have done.

there is an old track bed running along woolley wood bottom through eccclesfield onto chapeltown complete with intact bridges.
i beleive this track bed runs onto barnsley

there is also the old woodhead track bed running up to stocksbridge. im sure it could run alongside the single line that the once a week steel trains use,just like it does behind medowhall

Originally posted by gizmo
how about using old railway track beds like what manchester have done.

there is an old track bed running along woolley wood bottom through eccclesfield onto chapeltown complete with intact bridges.



It's not so old . . .


You can still catch a train from Chapeltown to Meadowhall and Sheffield.

Originally posted by Indigogo
It's not so old . . .


You can still catch a train from Chapeltown to Meadowhall and Sheffield.

the track bed in question is the old line that used to serve the coke plant through the old ecclesfield station and runs on by hesley wood and on to hoyland, it runs alongside the line you mention from meadowhall(where the south yorkshire railway place is) but bears right at the end of blackburn road. obviously you were unaware of this

Originally posted by fuzzy
Sorry but is the point of a transport system to go where people want to go.
So many people in sheffield work or visit hospitals, and the most popular bus route in sheffield the 52. The new tram does not go to any of these places, useful?

Indeed, the nearest tram stop to the Hospitals is the University stop, and then you've got to walk up Glossop Road, and try to get across the road from the tram stop during the rush hour traffic, it's like a live action version of Frogger, the old arcade game!

Originally posted by gizmo
the track bed in question is the old line that used to serve the coke plant through the old ecclesfield station and runs on by hesley wood and on to hoyland, it runs alongside the line you mention from meadowhall(where the south yorkshire railway place is) but bears right at the end of blackburn road. obviously you were unaware of this


So who would use it ?

You are all missing the point re tram extensions.
There should be no choice as to where the tram extensions should go .After all it is the ONLY way forward for this once fair city of ours'
1/It should go to Rotherham after all Rotherham does play a large part in Sheffields history
2/It should go to Dore and totley The old tram system did and was very popular After all the single passenger cars that travel from that area do snarl up the main route into Sheffield
3/All the hospitals should be served by the tram as a matter of right
Fianally when all the extensions are in place COMPULSARY park and rides should be set up on the outskirts of our city with a heavy fine for commutors not using them. This would keep the city clear of traffic and prevent snarl ups when we have a little snow

Originally posted by Indigogo
So who would use it ?

the people living in the afore mentioned areas.

i have worked in train stations all over south yorkshire, and tho people do use the train from chapeltown etc they then have to walk from sheffield station to where they work. a point most passengers commented on.

a tram link from the barnsley area via the old track bed could take commuters into the heart of the city.

the council tax payers of barnsley also contribute to the tram.

just a suggestion thats all

I think a big part of the problem is that we have HUGE trams that would find it difficult to wind around Broomhill, Fulwood, Ecclesall Rd, London Rd.

What are the chances of investing in smaller trams like the ones in Brussels? They go everywhere, and don't have platforms. I'm sure that we are clever enough to make trams disabled freindly without having to have such huge platforms that take so long to build at huge expense.

I agree with most here extending the tram is a good idea, and this time we will be ready for the disruption.

When I was studying in London Ken Livingstone was talking about putting a tram down Camberwell New Road, near to where I lived (hell of a lot of buses think 51 & 52 route times 10), but becuase I was not a voting resident, meaning not registered to vote there but up here, I couldn't vote or officlay comment on the idea.

But did go to a meeting and the residents were very interested to here my memories on the distruption caused in Sheffield.

Camberwell would be like Hillsbrough the rest of Camberwell New Road (Well the bit I lived near) would be like West Street, no idea where the buses would go or how delayed they would be.

I was told by the planners I had no idea what I was talking about becuase I admitted I was a teenager when they were being done. Maybe it was I was an outsider putting an oar in there plans, and I was for the tram but locals had to be informed which they weren't.

My point here is no matter where it goes are we ready for months/years of disruption again???

If it comes uo my road yes so long as they really do keep it to a minimum.

Jubby

On the BBC South Yorkshire site aswell as Sheffieldtoday.net are talking about the bad response of the people surrounding the proposed tram routes. Since coming back from Sheffield this week, I really think its about time they put a tram link to the Northern General. It took me forever to get up there by bus! Does anyone know where the idea of extending the tram to Hellaby? What exactly is of any significance there? and if people of rotherham dont want it then why bother persuing?! instead feed the tram up the A61 to woodseats because that is a bottleneck for traffic! even better send it to chesterfield! :confused:

Seems to me rather bizarre they are trying to make the Supertram into a long distance, town-linking service, isn't that what trains are...

Surely they should be making a much tighter system linking up as many areas of Sheffield as possible.

Talking about the types of the vehicles in service though, perhaps newer stock could have independent wheels to eliminate curve squeel. Might make them more popular in some places.

People living in the Totley and Dore areas are gagging for the Tram! with the bus beeing so lousy, anything else will be welcome, but i think dore ward will ook carefully at what SYPTE are doing, i believe Tram is supposed to go to Abbeydale Road South's Spar, not all the way into totley, that's not gonna please many (i.e. having to get the bus TO the tram)...

Personally, why not reopen the station between Totley and Sheffield and that's a tram line that doesn't have to be built...
I would much rather get on at Heeley than get on the tram personally, loads more fun :) and faster.

Regards,
Greg

Would be nice to have a Norton stop cos it's a 30 minute walk from my parents house to Herdings terminus, and I'm a fast walker! Easier just to get the bus to town from here to be honest.

When I eventually get my own place again (please let it be within the next 3 months) I'll not have a car so will be either on my bike or using public transport. If the tram came anywhere near me I'd definately use it cos it's not as cramped as the bus and there's nothing worse than sitting close behind someone who hasn't washed in a month. Urgh!

Yea I agree. That is what trains are for. Not trams. Manchester was lucky because it ran on previous disused tram lines. I personally think that before they start ploughing money into getting it to other outlying boroughs in the county they should start getting the city moving again. Im sure there are many areas around sheffield which would benefit from the tram system, whether they choose to admit it or not. I think one problem which you cant get around is the roadworks. But once they have been completed the benefits will be felt by everyone. Unlike other cities like Liverpool & Leeds which are having problems with establishing a tram system, Sheffield has the tram system in place already and should exploit it to its full potential. E.g Manchester. That system was only completed 1 year before Sheffield but already they have phase 2 completed and have the foundations in place for phase 3. Why is it taking Sheffield so long to get off the ground?

Originally posted by rickmiles85
Sheffield has the tram system in place already and should exploit it to its full potential. E.g Manchester. That system was only completed 1 year before Sheffield but already they have phase 2 completed and have the foundations in place for phase 3. Why is it taking Sheffield so long to get off the ground?

Coz Town Hall is full of Labours and Democrates and other minor genetically modified humans ? and only spend money on the poor and destroying dual carriage ways to make them into single lanned roads ?

Originally posted by Gregsd
Coz Town Hall is full of Labours and Democrates and other minor genetically modified humans ? and only spend money on the poor and destroying dual carriage ways to make them into single lanned roads ?

I thought those were the parties that were traditionally pro-public transport... Conservatives want to give people 'choice' of using their car, presumably creating more roads until everyone that is able to does.

It's not sustainable though.

What with population increase, can they think ahead 50 years and see what effect there may be? Perhaps the economy of the day is the most important thing to them.

Although it has to be said the Labour council are ploughing a lot of money into the inner ring road extensions that could have been spent on improving public transport. :loopy:

Now that south yorkshire (&sheffield) has an (international) airport to its name, do you feel that a tram extension to the new airport should be considered?

It's not exactly going to be close though is it. A tram ride would take ages, maybe rail might be a more appropriate solution.

Neither is Manchesters Metrolink to Man Airport yet they are still going ahead with one.

Correction Manchester City Centre

seems crazy when manchester airport already has a train station and so does manchester city centre.
and i would say it would be a waste in sheffield as well, why duplicate the public transport links, putting in a 2nd one that is actually slower!

If the airport is getting its own rail link from Doncaster and Sheffield (which it needs), I wouldn't think there would be a need for a tram link as well.

A shuttle bus from the city centre to the airport would provide a decent alternative for those that do not wish to travel by rail or car to the airport. It should also be much cheaper than extending the tram to the airport.

Why have a tram to the new airport (which is way too far from Sheffield anyway) ? there's a railway line that might get us there in less than an hour (which is probably a safe estimate for the tram) as it already takes 30 minutes at some times of day to reach Meadowhall alone.

Originally posted by RPG
its daft how to get to Dore and norton the tram will go into town :|

why not carry on at herdings :| I think the initial problem (for the politicians at least) is that Chesterfield is NEDCC and as such, doesn't currently contribute financially to the system, unlike Rotherham, Barnsley and Doncaster.

I also would like to see it extended as much as possible around Sheffield, but with good integration into the railway station. Then all we have to do is find some trains that run properly :roll:

A fast rail link between Sheffield and the new airport would be great! Maybe a driverless dedicated system like the DLR?

Get it extended!!
The tram network should be available to everyone so further links either Dore,Norton or Rotherham should be built.I know most people these days have access to a car but looking further ahead with increased traffic on the roads a solution will have to be found.So build the extensions now so they are in place for the future.

Originally posted by Tony
I think the initial problem (for the politicians at least) is that Chesterfield is NEDCC and as such, doesn't currently contribute financially to the system, unlike Rotherham, Barnsley and Doncaster.

Whats Chesterfield got to do with extending the tram to Meadowhead?

I was obviously mixing posts up! :shakes:

:lol:

I think you were :P but it'd certainly be cool if Chesterfield council did put money toward it and it extended out there.

I live in nethergreen and would be really pleased to see the tram extended to Ramoor akthough this isnt going to happen as the local snobby residents rejecyted te plans claiming it would slow traffic, however a tram is much faster than a bus because it doesnt wait at stops 4 ages and they also said it would luck ugly however trams used to regulary go alonf fulwood road in the past no one minded then.

yer i agre wit sophie, especially as there are 3 major schools in this area, tapton, king edward V11, and notre dam(spelling?). plus, as with other places, the only method 2 medowhall is bus then tram. but as you said the dumb residents didn't want it, personally i think the tram looks very sleek it is quieter and less frequent than busses, also it doesn't pollute the air.

at notre dam the have at least 11 very shabby busses taking kids all over the city, these cause traffic, and are very ugly and they reak. the tram would cater for at least 1/2 of theese school busses.

STUPID RESIDENTS

PS: also it would cater for the childrens hospital

Just a thought but why didn,t they put a tram route from town thro the wicker and out up spital hill thro to lane top and beyond.The roads are plenty wide enough to take the rails and not much disruption either.

were in the ideal world would you like the supertram to run to and from ?
i would like it to run from meadowhead through woodseats/ heeley to the town centre down london road were would other people like it to run?

Through (or as close as possible to) Fargate, Pinstone Street and the Moor, along Eccy Road, round by the hospital and back down to West Street :)

I think it would be handy if it went to Broomhill, Crookes, Crosspool as well as Down London Road and Ecclessal Road.

In an ideal world they would totally replace buses and run everywhere..but thats a pipe dream.

Originally posted by wibbles
In an ideal world they would totally replace buses and run everywhere..but thats a pipe dream.

In an "ideal" world, we'd have installed a mono-rail system instead of a stupid tram (the only good trams are in Criche)!


SCCsux - Proud to have never used the (not-so) SuperTram!

Originally posted by sccsux
In an "ideal" world, we'd have installed a mono-rail system instead of a stupid tram (the only good trams are in Criche)!



Two rails, one rail, - what's the difference ? Yeah I know a rail. They all have to be eight foot wide and eighty foot long to be practical as public transport.

What SCC should have done was replace the old trams with trolley buses and then stuck with them, so we would now have a clean, quiet and flexible public transport system.

At the end of the day the tram needs to run everywhere or it's never going to be an ideal transport system.

super tram is great, 90p to town, 90p back, I find I use my car for personal use a lot less.
The reason they replaced the old trams apparently is that the magnesium steel tracks all needed replacing and it was going to cost the millions, so a trolley bus system on the worn tracks wouldn't have worked.
So they chose busses instead, nice idea at the time I'd imagine, opened up new routes, etc.
Its just the busses in sheffield now are just so crap, thats why we need the tram.

I was told that trams were rendered obsolete, back in the 40's & 50's because the oil producing countries made diesel/ petrol so darn cheap, that we were conned into thinking

"oil is the future!"

and the electricity used to power the trams didn't seem such a great prospect...

so like lemmings, we changed over to using oil, and buses etc,

Then, of course, they had us over an (oil) barrell, once we'd burnt our bridges, and committed to oil. That's when the price per barrell began to skyrocket...

PT

Originally posted by Greybeard
Two rails, one rail, - what's the difference ? Yeah I know a rail.

And the fact that they are usually above ground? ;-)

Trams ah! before they are extended to other areas they should run earlier and later than they do now, when i asked if they could be run earlier i was told by stagecoach that they do not have enough trams to enable this and due to maintainance the trams would not be ready in time to start any earlier than they do now.

if sheffield supertram was to get extended like it's surpost to be where should it go next.

Anywhere but through my villiage!! (wickersley in rotherham), it will ruin it.

Meadowhead then down towards Dronfield, and have a big park and ride somewhere near the end of the by pass.:thumbsup:

Originally posted by scottf
Anywhere but through my villiage!! (wickersley in rotherham), it will ruin it.

I think it will only go to places that people want to go to.

yo it should be a network through the city. There should be

a circular line around the city centre, down arundel gate and up fitzwilliam street past west one

a line out to millhouses, down past brammall lane then up to Abbeydale road, with a spur up to woodseats

a loop to hunters bar, with just one track running up past the hallamshire, down to hunters bar and back along a widened pavement on the non-shopping side of ecclesall road.

a line out to the northern general

a line to rotherham taking in Magna

Basically, take a look at any major road in sheffield and it's utterly jammed with single person cars. Either we invest in a better, linked, easily-navigable transport system to take all these people somewhere, or we sit blocked up on the same roads forever.

People moan about the disruption to their area; but think how easy it will be to get to town; about how cool trams (or undergrounds) make a place; think about how property value goes up if you're close to a tram stop. Tourists can't find their way to broomhill or anywhere on a bus. Buses suck.

Anywhere away from my place,the noise is awful sometimes.
I can always tell what time it is in the morning with the first tram:mad:
As to where ,it should go to the parson cross where many people still live.

Originally posted by nick2
I think it will only go to places that people want to go to.

Actually thats one of the proposed routes if they extend it to rotherham.

if they extend they are ging to extend to dore/hellaby(south rotherham)
ranmoor/parkgate via magna, rotherham town centre

I think along London Road and Abbeydale Road, and along Ecclesall Road would be good, it would reduce the number fo busses and improve the roads generally.

I think eccie road isn't big enough for the tram system, unless they stopped any parking on there.

they could have an underpass like between the university stop and netherthorpe road it would cost a bit more but it's what they've done in manchester at the train station.

Originally posted by scottf
I think eccie road isn't big enough for the tram system, unless they stopped any parking on there.

Another good idea, tram and no parking, the traffic would soon be flowing at above it's current top speed of 5 mph.

It'll never happen though.

Whats wrong with north Sheffield? Why is it the posher areas always seem to get the breaks?

Originally posted by royjames
Whats wrong with north Sheffield? Why is it the posher areas always seem to get the breaks?

I recon the northern areas stand a better chance, as all the "posher" areas will moan and protest about having it, they prefer the busses and cars.

Originally posted by royjames
Whats wrong with north Sheffield? Why is it the posher areas always seem to get the breaks?

ther'es no main road's that go through north sheffield apart from penistone rod and it is full of housing estates which are harder to plan the only way i can see north sheffield having the tram system is if they use the disused railway line which runs over the wicker and goes towards wadsley bridge it's what they did with the manchester metrolink tram back in the 90's.

i think that they should make the trams more frequent and make them run 24 hours a day 7 days a week!!


any more threds!!!

Well if its going to the northern general then why not continue the link up to sheffield lane top and up to high green?

The tram COULD be the answer to sheffield transport problems but unfortunatly the network isn't large enough and its not often enough make full use of its potential!

Threads merged.

Originally posted by scottf
The tram COULD be the answer to sheffield transport problems but unfortunatly the network isn't large enough and its not often enough make full use of its potential!

Not a dig at you, but there are also the "not near my house" and "not outside my shop" brigade who will stop it going anywhere usefull.

I know for a fact that the vast majority of those from the cross would love to have the tram go near them.
All those large council estates are crying out for the tram, it would make good comercial sense to take it there.:thumbsup:

It'd be great to have the tram up to (and beyond) the Northern General- it'd packed full with hospital staff and visitors, not to mention all the people who live up this way.

Originally posted by royjames
I know for a fact that the vast majority of those from the cross would love to have the tram go near them.
All those large council estates are crying out for the tram, it would make good comercial sense to take it there.:thumbsup:

commercially the tram runs at a loss, it makes sense for it to go nowhere.

Where is the infomation you have seen that says the supertram is a commercial loss for Stagecoach? As far as I am aware Stagecoach Supertram gets no funding to operate it. The only council tax/PTE funding is to cover concession fares as do all public transport providers.

from House of commons select committee report (http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/03-04/0304518es.pdf)

In the case of the Sheffield Supertram,
however, the Department has incurred additional costs since the system
opened. As a condition of contributing £220 million to the £241 million
scheme, the Department required the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport
Executive to privatise the operating concession after the system opened.
Expecting privatisation proceeds of £80 million, the Executive secured receipts
of only some £1 million mainly because of lower than expected passenger
numbers, bringing the scheme a financial loss of £5.4 million in its first year of
operations. The shortfall in privatisation receipts left the Executive with a debt
that it was unable to service from its own resources. The Department decided
to take over some of the debt, incurring service costs of some £6 million a year.

Actual passenger
numbers have fallen well short of forecasts in three of the five systems that
we examined. Shortfalls ranged from 24 per cent on the Croydon Tramlink
after three years of operation, to 45 per cent on the Sheffield Supertram after
8 years of operation. Shortfalls in patronage have been attributable to overoptimistic
forecasting, changes in the patronage base, early operational
problems affecting services, competition from buses, and physical
limitations on the routes selected for some light rail systems.

Originally posted by sigmar14
ther'es no main road's that go through north sheffield apart from penistone road

What's Herries Road, then?

Herries Road, Prince of Wales Road and Ridgeway Road were all built to take trams along reserved track. Only Prince of Wales Road got a line. It was originally intended to be a circular line from Hillsborough all around to Ecclesall.
mdfs.net/temp/network.gif is a rough summary map of the old tram system. You can see it's only missing a couple of links to have a full circular route.

Having spent some time in foreign cities with absolutely excellent transport systems, consisting of both trams and metros, and 24 hour services. In sheffield we are in the dark ages.

Most people wander around thinking oh it's allright we live in a country which has the fourth richest economy in the world. Visit cities in germany, czech republic, holland, france, belgium. If you do you will see very clearly how much we have to achieve in sheffield. Compared to those places we live in a dirty slummy place with poor transport, litter everywhere, and nothing much to be proud of or to present to visitors.

5 years ago I would have been angry with anyone who said any of this. But we need to be a great deal more optimistic, we need to invest, or we will stay as a scruffy backwater, not a world city.

Cyclone the reference example you have shown refers to when the PTE owned and operated the Supertram I>e the National and local taxpayer picked up the contruction costs. It does not refer to operating the Supertram since it went into private hands of Stagecoach.

Originally posted by silverknight
Cyclone the reference example you have shown refers to when the PTE owned and operated the Supertram I>e the National and local taxpayer picked up the contruction costs. It does not refer to operating the Supertram since it went into private hands of Stagecoach.

it refers to 2002 - 2003 in part which is well after Stagecoach took the licence.
The amount stagecoach paid did not pay for the work of course, so the city was out of pocket. And now it has subsidies to keep it running, so we end up more out of pocket.

if they got it to do about 30miles a day then by the end of the week it could be in London and then we might be rid of it.

I have travelled on it twice , City centre to Crystal peaks and back, it is wonderfull, and very efficient method of transport, but it just does not serve the higher populated areas of Sheffield.

All around the NG hospital needs service and the Hallamshire as well as the Childrens Hospitals.

Millhouses, Dore, London road, Heeley, Abbeydale road, Barnsley Road , Ecclesfield, Chapeltown and many others are all areas where lots of people live who would use the tram if they didnt have to drive to the tram stop in the first place.

My nearest tram stop is at Hillsborough corner or Meadowhall, which are both about 10 minutes in a car from my house, so when you get to meadowhall why spend another 2 quid on the tram you do your shopping there, and Hillsborough is not much better cause there is not enogh car parking to make it work.

I use the tram form the Terminus at Halfway the problems with this route are that at peak times the trams are to packed and the route its self is to indirect.
Its a shame they did not send it straight down City Road to park Square instead of going through Norfolk Park which i believe was the original idea.
An even better idea send it up the Parkway then on to Mosborough bypass past Crystal peaks to the Terminus now that would be good(for me anyway!)

Originally posted by Cyclone
it refers to 2002 - 2003 in part which is well after Stagecoach took the licence.
The amount stagecoach paid did not pay for the work of course, so the city was out of pocket. And now it has subsidies to keep it running, so we end up more out of pocket.

But, if they extend it to the right places, people will use it and fares will cover running costs. I read somewhere that one of the reasons for lower than expected passagner numbers was that the council demolished all the tower blocks at Norfolk Park and demolished Kelvin flats, which were supposed to provide passangers for the tram. If it was extended, for example to some of the North Sheffield estates, maybe lots of people would use it.

I believe you should also consider the other benefits of the Supertram - less traffic on the roads, for example. If these benefits are good enough, it is worth paying for the tram out of council tax.

I think that fares should cover the running costs of the tram system, but capital costs should be met by the council.

it should follow the route of the old tram system as close as possible

read the report I linked too. Congestion has not been reduced.
And the tram that should be designed to avoid the congestion, gets stuck too because the route runs down the congested roads... who designed that, duh.

Originally posted by Andy
But, if they extend it to the right places, people will use it and fares will cover running costs. I read somewhere that one of the reasons for lower than expected passagner numbers was that the council demolished all the tower blocks at Norfolk Park and demolished Kelvin flats, which were supposed to provide passangers for the tram. If it was extended, for example to some of the North Sheffield estates, maybe lots of people would use it.

I believe you should also consider the other benefits of the Supertram - less traffic on the roads, for example. If these benefits are good enough, it is worth paying for the tram out of council tax.

I think that fares should cover the running costs of the tram system, but capital costs should be met by the council.

Originally posted by Cyclone
read the report I linked too. Congestion has not been reduced.

I use the tram to get to work, and if it wasn't there, I would drive (as I used to before I moved onto the tram route). So that's one less car on the road.

Congestion would be worse if it wasn't for the tram - how would all those passangers get to work?



And the tram that should be designed to avoid the congestion, gets stuck too because the route runs down the congested roads... who designed that, duh.

Agree - the tram seems most efficient on the route to Meadowhall where it is mostly off-road. City Road and West Street seem to be the worse areas for trams getting stuck in traffic, but I suppose there's no alternative off road route for these sections of the tram.

I think it would be a good idea to go into rotherham even if it was just the city center, it would benefit people in rotherham & sheffield.

Originally posted by underground1
I think it would be a good idea to go into rotherham even if it was just the city center, it would benefit people in rotherham & sheffield.
You are right of course.
I understand that there is a disused railbed which goes from the meadowhall branch right to under Rotherham bus station, which has been earmarked for a Rotherham extension since the system was first built. This would be a relatively cheap addition. And a regular connection between Rotherham - Meadowhall - Sheffield is a winner, it can't fail.

why can it not follow exiting rail lines ie the one from chesterfield-sheffield :D

Originally posted by craigmason
why can it not follow exiting rail lines ie the one from chesterfield-sheffield :D

because we don't want anyone called cletus bringing his 35 unwanted children to stand around with their single brows and hairy hands oogling at the big smoke as if they are watching a card trick.

nice try mason:mad:

Originally posted by craigmason
why can it not follow exiting rail lines ie the one from chesterfield-sheffield :D

couldn't people just catch the train, or am I missing the tongue in cheekness of the comment?

Originally posted by Cyclone
couldn't people just catch the train, or am I missing the tongue in cheekness of the comment?

are you having a laugh :suspect: there is only 1 train late at night and 1 early morning stopping in dronfield none in the daytime

Originally posted by craigmason
are you having a laugh :suspect: there is only 1 train late at night and 1 early morning stopping in dronfield none in the daytime

so it wasn't tongue in cheek?

Surely the solution regarding that is to run more trains, not to waste money putting in tram tracks so that we can duplicate an existing service with an inferior one.

Chapeltown to the city centre is a must

a good place would be the new airport, when it develops.

Well Bramall Lane is on the list too as the pubs on there all got letters last year saying that they were extending it there in the next 5 years!

Can you imagine it!? The traffic is bad enough anyway!!!

FGS - Sheffield City Council.... sometimes!

I think that they should run it through the centre of mosborough and down the A6135 to the centre of eckington. It would be great for future extensions to chesterfield and also wouldnt get much opposition, as the road is a noisy one anyway with not many bus links around there to sheffield, even though there is a large residential population.

Is there still an abandoned railway trackbed between Tinsley/Meadowhall and Ecclesfield?

That said I don't think they justify the investment - there is already a train service Meadowhall-Chapeltown and I cannot imagine the existing Yorkshire Terrier bus service that does goes from Meadowhall through Chapeltown is that busy.

Extending trams Herdings-Meadowhead sounds a brilliant idea, the worry I have though is the journey time from town would be very long, and the 25/75 bus would be quicker, except for when Woodseats is gridlocked (that'll be all day then. ahem.)

I support extending the tram to Dore/Totley, although it does seem annoying that the same benefits could probably be achieved cheaper with a package of improvements to bus and train infrastructure in the area, but the will isn't there to do that.

Curse the sad combination of SYPTE and Firstbus that we are saddled with in Sheffield.

I went to Nottingham last week and parked the car in Hucknall tram/train station park and ride, there trams mainly use a shared railway line and the old issue of exstending the tram down passed Heeley ,Millhouses & Dore Station needs to be looked at again as were still in the dark ages and falling behind in relation to other cities

Dore have been offered it, but don't want it.

So why not give it to the wretched peasants in North Sheffield instead?

Link the hospitals, and go as far as Chapeltown (there's a train station there, no?)

x

Dore have been offered it, but don't want it.

So why not give it to the wretched peasants in North Sheffield instead?

Link the hospitals, and go as far as Chapeltown (there's a train station there, no?)

x

I think that the tram should be exstended along the old railway line to Chapletown:D.

And most of us in S17 wanted the tram :suspect:

dont think the city could cope with the upheavel of them building tramlines again, all the business's that fizzled out.......

Should go through Woodseat- anything to make the traffic less!

I think an extension to parkgate at Rotherham would be a really good idea...I hate driving there. I believe they've been talking about doing this for ages now and nothing has every come of it.

I like the idea of a 'figure of 8' tram route that would connect most of the city's population with most of it's major facilities such as the colleges/universities, hospitals, Meadowhall, football grounds and other sports/leisure centres, supermarkets/shopping facilities etc. Part of the system is already in place such as the line from the city centre to Meadowhall and city centre to Herdings. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the Herdings line could be easily extended down Bochum Parkway to Norton College and Meadowhead, turning right towards Morrisons and then left onto Abbey Lane, right onto Hutcliffe Wood Road past the crematorium and down towards Sainsbury's and Tesco at Abbeydale.

But then where?

The obvious route is along the railway line back to the city centre but to complete the bottom circle of the 'figure of 8' the line should go from Archer Lane/Abbeydale Road up Bannerdale Road to turn right onto Ecclesall Road, down to Hunters Bar, up Brocco Bank, along Clarkehouse Road to the Hallamshire Hospital and down Glossop Road to join with the existing tram track along West Street.

So there we have the bottom of the figure 8, connecting a lot of the major establishments with each other in the south of the city.

The top of the figure 8, directly connecting the south of the city with the north is as follows.

Let's start from Meadowhall interchange.

The tram would head west along the side of the mainline track to a newly reopened and refurbished Brightside railway/tram station.

It would then turn right onto Downgate Drive and then across Carlisle Street East onto Petre Street, straight across the waste ground connecting the bottom of Petre Street with Earl Marshall Road.

The tram then goes all the way along Earl Marshall Road to turn right onto Barnsley Road then across the junction with Owler Lane and under the archway into the grounds of the NG Hospital. From there the tram turns right to leave the grounds through the existing opening, turning left back onto Barnsley Road going uphill and turning right onto Hucklow Road heading to Firth Park.

From the roundabout at Firth Park the tram heads left up Stubbin Lane to serve Longley College and then right back onto Barnsley Road where it continues along the A6135 until it turns left into Primrose Drive and St Michaels Road giving access to the shops in Ecclesfield.

The tram would then turn left into Wordsworth Avenue and continue along to the roundabout junction with Deerlands Avenue, turning right onto Deerlands and then left onto Chaucer Road and left again onto Halifax Road.

Going down Halifax Road it could then turn right to access a new Wadsley Bridge station (connecting with other future tram services to Stocksbridge) before dropping down to Claywheels Lane and over the river to connect with the existing tram line at Middlewood. Alternatively the tram could carry on down Halifax Road and under the railway bridge to turn right onto Claywheels Lane to connect with the Middlewood stop as before.

Trams would then head back to Hillsborough and the city centre on the existing track thus completing the top of the figure 8 and directly connecting the north of the city with the south.

You might need to get a map and a pencil to plot this route but you should see it comes out as a figure of 8 and quite neatly connects most of the major developments of the city without the need for passengers to change services.

Let me know what you think.

I think an extension to parkgate at Rotherham would be a really good idea...I hate driving there. I believe they've been talking about doing this for ages now and nothing has every come of it.

Parkgate could do with its own railway station, how long has it been there 20 years plus :roll:

I like the idea of a 'figure of 8' tram route that would connect most of the city's population with most of it's major facilities such as the colleges/universities, hospitals, Meadowhall, football grounds and other sports/leisure centres, supermarkets/shopping facilities etc. Part of the system is already in place such as the line from the city centre to Meadowhall and city centre to Herdings. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the Herdings line could be easily extended down Bochum Parkway to Norton College and Meadowhead, turning right towards Morrisons and then left onto Abbey Lane, right onto Hutcliffe Wood Road past the crematorium and down towards Sainsbury's and Tesco at Abbeydale.

But then where?

The obvious route is along the railway line back to the city centre but to complete the bottom circle of the 'figure of 8' the line should go from Archer Lane/Abbeydale Road up Bannerdale Road to turn right onto Ecclesall Road, down to Hunters Bar, up Brocco Bank, along Clarkehouse Road to the Hallamshire Hospital and down Glossop Road to join with the existing tram track along West Street.

So there we have the bottom of the figure 8, connecting a lot of the major establishments with each other in the south of the city.

The top of the figure 8, directly connecting the south of the city with the north is as follows.

Let's start from Meadowhall interchange.

The tram would head west along the side of the mainline track to a newly reopened and refurbished Brightside railway/tram station.

It would then turn right onto Downgate Drive and then across Carlisle Street East onto Petre Street, straight across the waste ground connecting the bottom of Petre Street with Earl Marshall Road.

The tram then goes all the way along Earl Marshall Road to turn right onto Barnsley Road then across the junction with Owler Lane and under the archway into the grounds of the NG Hospital. From there the tram turns right to leave the grounds through the existing opening, turning left back onto Barnsley Road going uphill and turning right onto Hucklow Road heading to Firth Park.

From the roundabout at Firth Park the tram heads left up Stubbin Lane to serve Longley College and then right back onto Barnsley Road where it continues along the A6135 until it turns left into Primrose Drive and St Michaels Road giving access to the shops in Ecclesfield.

The tram would then turn left into Wordsworth Avenue and continue along to the roundabout junction with Deerlands Avenue, turning right onto Deerlands and then left onto Chaucer Road and left again onto Halifax Road.

Going down Halifax Road it could then turn right to access a new Wadsley Bridge station (connecting with other future tram services to Stocksbridge) before dropping down to Claywheels Lane and over the river to connect with the existing tram line at Middlewood. Alternatively the tram could carry on down Halifax Road and under the railway bridge to turn right onto Claywheels Lane to connect with the Middlewood stop as before.

Trams would then head back to Hillsborough and the city centre on the existing track thus completing the top of the figure 8 and directly connecting the north of the city with the south.

You might need to get a map and a pencil to plot this route but you should see it comes out as a figure of 8 and quite neatly connects most of the major developments of the city without the need for passengers to change services.

Let me know what you think.

Very interesting proposals but very expensive to implement I would imagine. Do you have any figures on how much traffic this would reduce in the city as it seems to be a very extensive expansion of the system?

I would love ti to come from crystal peaks down A57 to join parkway into town stopping at normanton springs

I vote London Road, Chesterfield Road, Woodseats, Meadowhead, but its not gonna happen

So what does Chesterfield offer us that Rotherham doesn't?

Ginetic diversity?

I vote London Road, Chesterfield Road, Woodseats, Meadowhead, but its not gonna happen

I say it should go to my flat!

I vote London Road, Chesterfield Road, Woodseats, Meadowhead, but its not gonna happen

Woodseats is bedlem at the best of times but would be a good route :D

There has been the idea of exstending the tram from Gleadless Townend to Meadowhead and Lowedges and building a park and ride at Meadowhead but yet again in this city we fall behind where Manchester has 3 extensions on the go at once :help:

i think that they should extend to stocksbridge(via the old railway line)ngh,stannington,rotherham(via meadowhall extension)and millhouses

A tram link linking Meersbrook to town and to Norfolk Park, please :)

I personally think they're missing a big trick by not linking us who live in the neighbourhoods Chesterfield Road goes through. Talk about a load of young and old green-types who'd definitely use the service.

Then again, not being able to ever take your bike onto the tram could be a problem. I realise there's a space issue at peak times, but how is that an integrated and sustainable transport system? I wouldn't drive to work if

a. bus companies would run a cross-neighbourhoods service more than once an hour peak time and the drivers weren't misanthropic case studies

b. i could cycle 3/4s of the way downhill to work then put myself and my bike on the tram to get up to the top of Norfolk Park hill

c. i could cycle 3/4s of the way downhill home and catch a tram at least part of the way up my hill.
(the horrors of living and working on two massive hills separated by a large valley :lol: )

For those who think this is very lazy, you try it. :lol: I also suffer a knee condition where 'moderate cycling only' is the rules. There's nothing moderate about those two hills
Oh, and dogs - how is not being able to take my dog on the tram with me to a different park or to the vets integrated transport? :evil:

Laura,
goes off muttering about elitist trams and dog haters and hills and bicycles


Sorry for the bad news but trams wont let ya take ya bike on x

The best place for the tram to go is back to the depot AND STAY THERE !!

I vote London Road, Chesterfield Road, Woodseats, Meadowhead, but its not gonna happen

So would I, but can you imagine a tram going down the entire stretch of the road? The south of the city would just be gridlocked.

I say spend more of the money that would otherwise be spent on speed bumps and create an underground track with stations all the way to chesterfield!

i think that they should extend to stocksbridge(via the old railway line)ngh,stannington,rotherham(via meadowhall extension)and millhouses

The Stockbridge line would be quite easy to do using the old railway line and would ease so much congestion in the North of the city

Although any tram extension requires some long-term investment strategy, the fact that the central infrastructure is already there -& is underused- means that additions to the system should, or at least could, recoup outlay a lot quicker than the first phase of development.
To my mind we ought to use railway trackbeds more. Whether supertram or another rail solution is right for Stocksbridge, I don't know, but I would think a fast connection with the city would cheer the folk there a little.
If a bit more co-operation could be achieved with Railtrack, it would be sensible to use the track-bed adjoining the main line SW from Midland station (connecting there with the existing tram platform), for a new tramline to Millhouses park-&-ride, stopping at Heeley & perhaps Woodseats Rd. This could then be extended further to Dore, or Totley Brook Rd, & then laterally with an extension up to Meadowhead, & another to some point on Ecclesall Rd South.
Another obvious improvement would be to extend the present Herdings spur to Jordanthorpe, with a park-&-ride on the old aerodrome.
At various points Ecclesall Rd, Abbeydale Rd & Chesterfield Rd are impossibly choked with traffic. A few of the junctions could be improved (though I reckon Abbeydale Rd S / Abbey Lane operates to capacity), but the only real solution is to offer fast public transport that bypasses the bottlenecks.

Geoffrey White
Norton.

lowedges/ greenhill/ meadowhead/woodseats..

Instead of just saying where it should go, what criteria are people using to their choices? I mean, if we were going to direct a transport planner to come up with a new tram route, and she was going to try and fulfill as many needs as possible, what would those needs be?

I'll list a few I can think of, in no particular order. But feel free to add your own or pick one out as a priority.

a) The tram needs to cover the areas with the highest population densities.
b) The tram needs to connect major institutions and generators of traffic, such as colleges, universities, hospitals, and so on.
c) The tram needs to cover areas where large numbers of people already use public transport/have no access to private transport.
d) The tram needs to go along routes which are congested with cars to offer a public transport alternative.
e) The tram needs to reach motorways and the edge of the city to provide a park-and-ride option.
f) The tram needs to go to areas where regeneration is taking place to encourage people to live there.
g) The tram needs to take advantage of routes and infrastructure that already exists, going wherever a spare railway line or former alignment can be easily reused.
h) The tram needs to...

I'm interested in whether we all have the same priorities but make cases for different lines, or if we each see the tram as having a slightly different use.

I personally would use the tram more if it went straight down Prince of Wales road from Manor Top down to Meadowhall rather than going into town to change trams to go to meadowhall. Prince is a huge road with plenty of space for a tram and so is greenland road straight down to the arena. Makes sense to me!

I personally would use the tram more if it went straight down Prince of Wales road from Manor Top down to Meadowhall rather than going into town to change trams to go to meadowhall. Prince is a huge road with plenty of space for a tram and so is greenland road straight down to the arena. Makes sense to me!

The old tram went this way ( pre October 1960 ) thats why its so wide , great idea for a route :D

As long it it doesn't come anywhere near me, I don't mind! :D

Links to the hospitals would be good. :partyhat:

ther'es no main road's that go through north sheffield apart from penistone rod and it is full of housing estates which are harder to plan the only way i can see north sheffield having the tram system is if they use the disused railway line

Oh I dunno, may still be worth finding out if it's possible- the 75/76 bus route has a massive distance covered over main-ish roads, pretty much servicing much more of North Sheffield that clearly needs it, oh and it could swing by the NGH as well, bosh.

Well Bramall Lane is on the list too as the pubs on there all got letters last year saying that they were extending it there in the next 5 years!

Can you imagine it!? The traffic is bad enough anyway!!!

FGS - Sheffield City Council.... sometimes!

Hmm... Let's either (a) put our money into a better tram service to Bramall Lane and policing on match day, or (b) dedicate entire trams for footie communters like the last derby, and need to police it more anyway, lessening regular commuters' services.

Either way it's wasted money and excluding anybody who doesn't make it a sport in itself to trash Sheffield city centre, good economy or not, not to mention more costly to bend over backwards for the percentage of idiots that get on them on said match days. Groan over!

I remember seeing the proposed routes before the tram was even started and the first thing I noticed was THE MAIN HOSPITALS WERE NOT TO BE SERVED. Years later, hospitals STILL not being served.
Supertram is just one giant trainset for the planners to play with, something to try and impress other cities with.

The best place for the tram to go is back to the depot AND STAY THERE !!

Why do you say that? What don't you like about the tram?

As long it it doesn't come anywhere near me, I don't mind! :D

Why don't you wantthe tram route to go near you? what is it that you don't like about it?

There has been the idea of exstending the tram from Gleadless Townend to Meadowhead and Lowedges and building a park and ride at Meadowhead but yet again in this city we fall behind where Manchester has 3 extensions on the go at once :help:

Manchesters system was built properly and well thought out. Therefore when they ask for more money the answer is yes. Sheffields system was ill advised, badly thought out, and had to be bailed out by the taxpayer, then the operating company was sold on for a fraction of its worth. Sorry what was the question again?

Manchesters system was built properly and well thought out.Manchester also had the advantage of a lot of disused and underused heavy rail lines running into useful areas that could be reused as light rail lines. Watch Corrie and you can sometimes see a tram go past in the background along the converted railway line.

watch corrie and you can sometimes see a tram go past in the background along the converted railway line.

thats cgi super-imposed on a filming set...!!!!

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Watch Corrie and you can sometimes see a tram go past in the background along the converted railway line.


:hihi::hihi::hihi: that tram isn't real. Bet you think it was a real tram that crashed into the shop

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-18100674

Tram-trains which run on street tracks and railway lines are to be piloted in South Yorkshire in a scheme worth £58m, the government has confirmed.

Starting in 2015, the newly-built tram-trains will run on local tram routes and Network Rail lines between Sheffield, Meadowhall and Rotherham.

The two-year pilot scheme will be the first of its kind in the UK.

Transport Minister Norman Baker said the pilot would test the concept for a possible wider roll-out across the UK.

If I'm still working in Hellaby in 2015 (and I most likely will be) this will be great for me.

yes, its effectively an extension to the Supertram network with the new route running as now Cathedral to Meadowhall South/Tinsley then crossing over onto Network Rail's tracks, calling at Rotherham Central station and terminating at Parkgate retail world.

Is this like the system in the West Midlands and Manchester?

Is this like the system in the West Midlands and Manchester?

No, they're just tram systems like we already have.

Great idea. Would be good too for traffic congestion if it was extended along the rails to Dore station.

Thought the Manchester one ran on Network Rail tracks which was suggested for Sheffield at its inception but the powers that be chose narrow gauge

So how will it work if the two tracks are different gauges? Is it a new design of tram that can seamlessly move from one gauge to the other?

So how will it work if the two tracks are different gauges? Is it a new design of tram that can seamlessly move from one gauge to the other?

they're not...

So how will it work if the two tracks are different gauges? Is it a new design of tram that can seamlessly move from one gauge to the other?

They are the same gauge..4ft 8 1/2 inch..

Just been reading up on it, and found this article from 2009:

the project will take three years and £24m to get up and running.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8257652.stm

But today's announcement states it will cost £58 million.

They are the same gauge..4ft 8 1/2 inch..

That's what I thought. I was responding to 820vitesse who claimed they were on narrow gauge.

That's what I thought. I was responding to 820vitesse who claimed they were on narrow gauge.

OK sorry...misunderstood..

Thought the Manchester one ran on Network Rail tracks which was suggested for Sheffield at its inception but the powers that be chose narrow gauge

Some of Manchester's routes used to be mainline routes, but have been converted and seperated. Sheffield's trams are standard gauge.

The rail regulations do not allow light rail vehicles (trams) and heavy rail vehicles (trains) to share the same tracks, primarily because of the consequences to the tram if it got hit by a train. The entire purpose of this trial is to establish new regulations for "tram-trains" - light rail vehicles built to heavy rail safety standards, as well as to explore the technical issues with running trams on "tramway" rail and standard tracks. AIUI, there are several concerns with how tramway profile wheels will cope with the gaps in normal points.

The current trams, while physically capable of running on the extended route, will not be permitted to leave the Supertram network.

Why not?

Makes sense to run it further into the Labour heartlands (Rotherham) than where it's desperately required in non-lefty S10 and S17.

Political gesture and nothing more...,

Why not?Because the existing Supertram vehicles are Light Rail vehicles and are not licensable to travel on Heavy Rail tracks. The new vehicles are built so they can be licensable to travel on Heavy Rail track, and part of the trials are to see what issues there are running a Light Rail vehicle on Heavy Rail track which will feed into future build standards that will allow Light Rail vehicles to run on Heavy Rail.

Think of it this way: canal barges are not licensable to travel on the high seas. Let's build a canal barge designed to travel on the high seas so that we can gather the data that will allow us to build future canal barges with relavant modifications to let them travel on the high seas.

Wow! £58m, personally I think it would be better spending it on the other half of the city that is tramless.

I think the point is to trial the technology and infrastructure - any benefit to Sheffield and/or Rotherham is just incidental.

The reason current Supertrams are not allowed to run on Network Rail track include:
- they do not carry the required safety and signalling equipment.
- the profile of the wheel tyres is significantly different.
- supertram floors are flush with supertram platform edges. They will not be at Rotherham platforms.
- Network Rail requires a more robust pantograph construction.
- Network Rail requires removal of broken down trains using couplings.
- the speed of the trams must be up to current/future line speed so as not to slow conventional trains.
These and other prohibitions are why this is a Government funded trial so that workable solutions can be found.

Why not?

Makes sense to run it further into the Labour heartlands (Rotherham) than where it's desperately required in non-lefty S10 and S17.

Political gesture and nothing more...,

hmm. Its a Department for Transport project and its a Tory (well condem) government, who are obviously going to favour left wing areas....

The tram train is a way of extending the tram at a low cost where there is already a lightly used railway line as well as improving links between two towns.

Neither S10 nor S17 have lightly used freight railways located near the existing network to utilise....

S17 does however already have a busy railway line with passenger services already operating (Dore & Totley station).

I like the idea, but I can't see how it can be much help to us in Rotherham, I live 2 miles from meadowhall and I work in hillsbrough, if the was a station close by i would consider ditching the car, but i would still have to get the bus to meadowhall so I can't see much benefit for the cost!

Why not?

Makes sense to run it further into the Labour heartlands (Rotherham) than where it's desperately required in non-lefty S10 and S17.

Political gesture and nothing more...,

I live in S10 but there's no room for a tram round Broomhill etc.

The Rotherham route means running on existing rail lines, so not demolishing anything or years of traffic disruption (as Hillsborough saw in the mid 90s).

And Broomhill and Crookes have Labour councillors too ;)

There has been mutterings that if this trial is a success, and tram-trains can be brought to the UK, then a link between the mainline south of Sheffield station and the tramline would be a possible future expansion, allowing tram-train services from Dore / Totley into the city centre, with at least one new station along the route.

Wow! £58m, personally I think it would be better spending it on the other half of the city that is tramless.
---------------
I agree sharrovian, to northern general hospital would be a start.

Its marvelous how the money was found for the project but i remember
when sheffield forgemarster wanted a loan to boost new orders and that to create job in sheffield aswell. :huh:

Personally I reckon they ought to:
A.) Build a new tram line from scratch from Chapeltown Station to Dore Station, covering NGH, Spital Hill, City Centre, Broomhill and those posh bits.
B.) Trolleybus the 52 route, if it's possible for them to share the same sort of elastictrickery as the trams at the Hillsboroguh terminus, if not work out a new Hillsborough terminus so they don't cock up the trams elastictrickery.
C.) Electrify the trains from Sheffield to London, as long as doing this at 25kVAC wouldn't cock up any future plans to put tram-trains down those tracks

People suggesting that we build new routes in/around Sheffield need to remember the disruption that we had in the 1990s when they built the original Supertram route - seeing how bad traffic can be on Barnsley Road would you want a couple of years of disruption around the Northern General?

I'm sure a few businesses in/around Hillsborough closed due to people not being able to get to them due to the long running roadworks

The money in this case is only available because somewhere in the UK, with a tram system and suitable heavy rail lines needs to run a trial of the tram-train technology. The Government chose Sheffield, but if SYPTE had turned the cash down, going "we'd rather extend to the Northern General, thank you very much", the Government would just reply "OK, right, Manchester, do you want £60m for some tram-trains?". Tram extensions were not, and are not on the table.

The electrification of the Midland Mainline between Leeds, Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham and St Pancras is expected to be announced as part of the next Network Rail control period (starts in 2015) later this year. As a project, the BCA (Benefit / Cost Analysis) came out as infinite - i.e. it's costing the country not to do it - so it won't need the same levels of Government commitment as the other already announced electrification schemes.

Just been reading up on it, and found this article from 2009:

the project will take three years and £24m to get up and running.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8257652.stm

But today's announcement states it will cost £58 million.



Aye, and by it's completion it will have risen to £80/£90 million and it will still be useless. Complete waste of brass.

Angel.

Wow! £58m, personally I think it would be better spending it on the other half of the city that is tramless.

£58 million would not even touch the sides of that. The only track that needs laying for this is to connect meadowhall interchange tram tracks to the rail network. I think there is even a station somewhere near retail world that will just need a spruce up!

could never understand why the tram does not go past herdings , why did they not carry on to bradway incorporating jordanthorpe, batemoor and lowedges

Sheffield's tram system is infinitely better than Manchester's which was built on the cheap and is always breaking down. The reason for the extensions in Manchester is that it is a growing city and the favourite of govts, as well as the fact its mainly being extended on old railway lines or even replacing them in some instances. Sheffield doesn't have the same legacy of disused railways.

Also Sheffield's tram system is way better value and integrated with Stagecoach's buses and with conductors while Metrolink is hideously expensive, at least 50% more! The grass isn't always greener!

could never understand why the tram does not go past herdings , why did they not carry on to bradway incorporating jordanthorpe, batemoor and lowedges

A Park & Ride at Meadowhead would take hundreds of cars away from congestion in Woodseats and the A61.

The Herdings and Malin Bridge extensions were half hearted political moves - it should have been either full extension to Stannington and Batemoor/ Meadowhead/ Lowedges etc or nothing (just the main Middlewood/ Meadowhall/ Halfway lines without the short branches).

Should have extended up near the hospitals...would reduce congestion lots...but all the councillors live up there. the disuption would be unacceptable...lol

A.) Build a new tram line from scratch from Chapeltown Station to Dore Station, covering NGH, Spital Hill, City Centre, Broomhill and those posh bits.

How much will this cost?

And where will the money come from?

Because the existing Supertram vehicles are Light Rail vehicles and are not licensable to travel on Heavy Rail tracks. The new vehicles are built so they can be licensable to travel on Heavy Rail track, and part of the trials are to see what issues there are running a Light Rail vehicle on Heavy Rail track which will feed into future build standards that will allow Light Rail vehicles to run on Heavy Rail.

Think of it this way: canal barges are not licensable to travel on the high seas. Let's build a canal barge designed to travel on the high seas so that we can gather the data that will allow us to build future canal barges with relavant modifications to let them travel on the high seas.
Canal barges do use the coastal waters .

Wow! £58m, personally I think it would be better spending it on the other half of the city that is tramless.
The hospitals should be on the route but has stated if the Rotherham link is succesfull then the boundrys are limitless.

Several overlapping threads on this topic have been merged here.

Thought the Manchester one ran on Network Rail tracks which was suggested for Sheffield at its inception but the powers that be chose narrow gauge

Complete and utter balderdash (re narrow gauge)

Should have extended up near the hospitals...would reduce congestion lots...but all the councillors live up there. the disuption would be unacceptable...lol

The only place you could put the tracks up to the hospitals would be on the road (unless you demolish a load of houses) so the trams would suffer the same congestion other road vehicles do.

There are very good bus services to the hospitals.

On the other hand, the tram-train service to Rotherham will run all the way on either segregated tram lines or Network Rail railway lines, which means a fast, reliable traffic free route.

Like the trains are fast and reliable?

Assuming the Rotherham tram-train link is a success, what would be the next line most likely to be used for this in Sheffield? I know we would have to lobby for funding and compete with other cities, but it would be good to be prepared. Would it be the Hudders line or Millhouses/Dore?

It would be good to hear from the train experts on here, so we know what might actually be achievable - in the next 5-20 years say. Once the economy starts moving (in a few years perhaps) we will need to get some transport infrastructure schemes going in the North and Sheff/South Yorks should be well placed.

IMO its not the tram that causes congestion its the ridiculous traffic lights at some junctions. They go all out of sequence when a tram goes through and causes chaos. I'm sure in this day and age a better system could be used.

Anyone who uses Leppings Lane / Catchbar Lane / Parkside Rd in the evenings will know what I'm on about.