In the case of terrorism should torture be aloud to save lives? admitedly under torture you might say anything to save your life, but you know that if you lie you could get more pain, so what do you think?

I think we've done this already.

oops :blush:

I'm sure it will be removed it needed :)

is that 'lies' or 'lives'? torture will definitely stop people lieing. I prefer the thumb nails with a pair of pliers, two nails out and the hardest will spill their guts :)

torture will definitely stop people lieing.
I would have thought that it would make them say anything they think the torturer wants to hear to stop the pain.

I would have thought that it would make them say anything they think the torturer wants to hear to stop the pain.

But I imagine that if you lie to the person torturing you, they check out your information first, then if its true, they either stop or kill you. If its false, they keep going. I think I'd tell the truth and risk it :D

But I imagine that if you lie to the person torturing you, they check out your information first, then if its true, they either stop or kill you. If its false, they keep going. I think I'd tell the truth and risk it :Dthey test you first by asking you questions that they allready know the answers to, then they will cross referance your other answers with the replies they got off your mates,thats after they wear you down first for a few days ,so as to make you psychologically more vulnerable, unless of course they need to know what you know as quick as possible,in which case it will take minutes,not days to get the information they want..

Depoix, I'm getting a little worried now. How do you know this? :suspect:


:D

why not if it would save lives? these terrorists dont care about life so treat like as like we are now living under different times nobody is safe if these lunatics decide to cause maximum carnage. we have got to fight this thing together its no good thinking it cant happen it can & unfortunatley do,s

In the case of terrorism should torture be aloud to save lives?

I think it should be kept quiet

Depoix, I'm getting a little worried now. How do you know this? :suspect:


:Di was once captured bu the pc brigade and held for three weeks,they tortured my friend for hours and hours without mercy while i watched, then it was my turn.........






of course , i told them everything they wanted to know immediatly.....:hihi:

I think it should be kept quiet

bugger :| shhh! :D

I think the prisoners should only be tortured........if they agree to it........And only if the tortures take it seriously....not like in iraq

there is no place in our CIVILISED SOCIETY for torture and it makes me very sad that this question has been posed :shakes:

theres no place for suicide bombers & other terrorists in our civilised soceity .....but weve got em

theres no place for suicide bombers & other terrorists in our civilised soceity .....but weve got em

Any Society that approves torture cannot be called civilised, pk

Oohh Soloman its terrible, it was clamed,... its alleged they have been tortured with nice warm pork sandwichers and beer........Aaaa it must be terrible.....No apple sauce

i would love to live in a soceity that didnt need to have to go extremes to save lives, but what do you do against this evil these people dont care the
more death pain &suffering these people can inflict upon innocent people, the better the like it, if they could have killed thousands in london they would have done

these people are a product of something. we need to understand what that is and address THAT.

they hate the west & what we stand for

i was once captured bu the pc brigade and held for three weeks,they tortured my friend for hours and hours without mercy while i watched, then it was my turn.........






of course , i told them everything they wanted to know immediatly.....:hihi:


depoix......you told them everything.....did it take long ?

So maybe we need to address the way we conduct our foreign policy with a little more independent thought rather than merely hanging onto President Bush's coat-tails pk0?

i would love to live in a soceity that didnt need to have to go extremes to save lives, but what do you do against this evil these people dont care the
more death pain &suffering these people can inflict upon innocent people, the better the like it, if they could have killed thousands in london they would have done

Sorry pk, I like you, I know that you are a decent bloke. I know that beneath that anger is a tremendous disappointment in what is happening these days, compared to the past. I too feel that anger at times.

We both, probably find it hard to cope with, but it cannot be right to torture anyone, for any purpose during investigation.

This Nation is becoming unregulated in its Laws, Freedom of Expression and so on. It could be your child suddenly arrested and tortured to provide the basis for a Trial.

Do you have so much faith in the Justice System to allow this to be legally enshrined in Law?

I don't. When I have, I maybe will agree with you.

good evening halibut nice to hear from you :) does this the truce is over

Any Society that approves torture cannot be called civilised, pksteady on there shoeshine,im sure we,the british were found guilty of using torture in long kesh and the maze prisons at one time,maybe around the late 60,s or early 70,s, i think we were banned from using any stress positions on prisoners after amnesty international gave the u n a report

there is no place in our CIVILISED SOCIETY for torture and it makes me very sad that this question has been posed :shakes:

Nobody likes the idea of torture, but try this scenario:

You have captured a terrorist, and his friends don’t know yet. You know that they are about to set off in the next couple of days to set off a massive bomb, or worse (remember what Aum Shinrikyo achieved and they had a fraction of the network that Al Quaida has), but you don’t know where the team is based, which target they’re going to hit, or exactly when.

This captive definitely knows where they are, right now, and the only way to find out is torture because he’s fanatical and won’t let you have any information.

Truth drugs have limited effect, and the more effective ones actually cause physical damage (heavy hit on the brain’s chemistry, and they cause permanent psychological changes), so they’re not very ethical either.

Is it civilised to let one man have an easy time in custody, if that means sitting back knowing that dozens, hundreds, or perhaps even thousands will die in the next day or two?

We all have morals, but I hope we can all do simple maths as well.

depoix......you told them everything.....did it take long ?three weeks :hihi: :hihi:

Originally Posted by shoeshine
Any Society that approves torture cannot be called civilised, pk

steady on there shoeshine,im sure we,the british were found guilty of using torture in long kesh and the maze prisons at one time,maybe around the late 60,s or early 70,s, i think we were banned from using any stress positions on prisoners after amnesty international gave the u n a report

And put it into perspective. We have indeed in the past used stress positions, sleep deprevation, and mild brain-washing techniques.

I'd call these pretty civilised compared to sawing people's heads off in front of a camera, but that's just me being old-fashioned I suppose.

steady on there shoeshine,im sure we,the british were found guilty of using torture in long kesh and the maze prisons at one time,maybe around the late 60,s or early 70,s, i think we were banned from using any stress positions on prisoners after amnesty international gave the u n a report

So...why address that to me.....I take it you agree with my post?

Nobody likes the idea of torture, but try this scenario:

You have captured a terrorist, and his friends don’t know yet. You know that they are about to set off in the next couple of days to set off a massive bomb, or worse (remember what Aum Shinrikyo achieved and they had a fraction of the network that Al Quaida has), but you don’t know where the team is based, which target they’re going to hit, or exactly when.

This captive definitely knows where they are, right now, and the only way to find out is torture because he’s fanatical and won’t let you have any information.

Truth drugs have limited effect, and the more effective ones actually cause physical damage (heavy hit on the brain’s chemistry, and they cause permanent psychological changes), so they’re not very ethical either.

Is it civilised to let one man have an easy time in custody, if that means sitting back knowing that dozens, hundreds, or perhaps even thousands will die in the next day or two?

We all have morals, but I hope we can all do simple maths as well.

Recent history tells us that a young Brazilian man suffered death at the hands of the Police with crap info...........

Are you recommending he should have been tortured as well, before being shot in the head?

Any Society that approves torture cannot be called civilised, pki addressed it to you because of this post you made earlier. we the british did / do approve of torture but we are considered as civilised, as captain kirk would say " the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few " there is a need

Recent history tells us that a young Brazilian man suffered death at the hands of the Police with crap info...........

Are you recommending he should have been tortured as well, before being shot in the head?

Not at all - if he'd been tortured, there would have been no reason to shoot him in the head.

However, the (poor) int stated that he was an armed bomber, and wrong though the int may have been the only choice open to the Police on the ground was to spill his grey jelly.

Try to remember that the Police very, very rarely get this sort of thing wrong. Their firearms units are extremely highly trained, and in the heat of a massive national crisis the int error, however tragic, was understandable.

i addressed it to you because of this post you made earlier. we the british did / do approve of torture but we are considered as civilised, as captain kirk would say " the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few " there is a need

So what............Did I ever say on a post anywhere that our Nation is civilised or not civilised?

So what............Did I ever say on a post anywhere that our Nation is civilised or not civilised?
yes, you said any nation that approves of torture cannot be called civilised

i posted in reply that we,britain have used torture

Not at all - if he'd been tortured, there would have been no reason to shoot him in the head.

However, the (poor) int stated that he was an armed bomber, and wrong though the int may have been the only choice open to the Police on the ground was to spill his grey jelly.

Try to remember that the Police very, very rarely get this sort of thing wrong. Their firearms units are extremely highly trained, and in the heat of a massive national crisis the int error, however tragic, was understandable.

Precisely the point in my post...the "Intelligence" proved to be unintelligent. A boy died from these errors. Do you suggest we should let a boy of yours be tortured if he is mistakenly Identified by "Intelligence"

ps, throughout I use the word "Intelligence" loosely.

Precisely the point in my post...the "Intelligence" proved to be unintelligent. A boy died from these errors. Do you suggest we should let a boy of yours be tortured if he is mistakenly Identified by "Intelligence"

ps, throughout I use the word "Intelligence" loosely.


He wouldn't be tortured to death, and would survive a few hours in stress positions or under stressful interrogation.

However, the scenario in my post said "This captive definitely knows where they are, right now, and the only way to find out is torture because he’s fanatical and won’t let you have any information".

Not a case of doubt with a student or electrician saying 'what the hell is going on', a case of a known terrorist refusing to talk.
Under such circumstances I think a bit of stress is quite acceptable. My own view, if offered the balance between a definite big terrorist attack with large scale innocent murder of my countrymen and affecting the 'human rights' of a terrorist (human? - hardly), would be 'pass me the pliers'.

Unless you understand closely how the intelligence services work, you may not be in a position to fairly criticize them. They are very, very good at what they do – which is why we’ve had just one ‘big’ event, not dozens.

He wouldn't be tortured to death, and would survive a few hours in stress positions or under stressful interrogation.

However, the scenario in my post said "This captive definitely knows where they are, right now, and the only way to find out is torture because he’s fanatical and won’t let you have any information".

Not a case of doubt with a student or electrician saying 'what the hell is going on', a case of a known terrorist refusing to talk.
Under such circumstances I think a bit of stress is quite acceptable. My own view, if offered the balance between a definite big terrorist attack with large scale innocent murder of my countrymen and affecting the 'human rights' of a terrorist (human? - hardly), would be 'pass me the pliers'.

Unless you understand closely how the intelligence services work, you may not be in a position to fairly criticize them. They are very, very good at what they do – which is why we’ve had just one ‘big’ event, not dozens.

We are in the middle of a much bigger event....now would it be somewhere else?...... in the Middle East, perhaps? That was a real "triumph" for the intelligent "Intelligence Services", wasn't it? Tell the widow and family of Dr. David Kelly how brilliant the Intelligence Service performs.

At the same time you might spend a bit of time writing in the same vein to the families of our 100+ dead soldiers, and to the hospital beds and the Therapy Wards hosting the many injured soldiers, also the victims of our "Intelligence Service".

I guess no, I am only a Joe Public......I am not party to a close understanding of how well they do. On that basis I suppose I am not in a position to, in your words, "fairly criticise them".

We are in the middle of a much bigger event....now would it be somewhere else?...... in the Middle East, perhaps? That was a real "triumph" for the intelligent "Intelligence Services", wasn't it? Tell the widow and family of Dr. David Kelly how brilliant the Intelligence Service performs.

At the same time you might spend a bit of time writing in the same vein to the families of our 100+ dead soldiers, and to the hospital beds and the Therapy Wards hosting the many injured soldiers, also the victims of our "Intelligence Service".

I guess no, I am only a Joe Public......I am not party to a close understanding of how well they do. On that basis I suppose I am not in a position to, in your words, "fairly criticise them".

Could you please explain how the 100+ dead soldiers are victims of our intelligence services?

As for the bigger event, don't blame the intelligence operatives for the twisted way our politicians chose to interpret their findings.

good evening halibut nice to hear from you :) does this the truce is over
Evening pk0, nice to hear from you too...here's to many further verbal jousts!

Could you please explain how the 100+ dead soldiers are victims of our intelligence services?

As for the bigger event, don't blame the intelligence operatives for the twisted way our politicians chose to interpret their findings.

I don't, and never have, blamed the Intelligence Operatives for the failure of Intelligence submitted to The Government in relation to the Iraq War. I concur with your view that the events leading up to this catastrophe lay firmly at the door of politicians.

I do, however, put a massive responsibility upon those at the top of any organisation when such a gross mismanagement of the truth is allowed to be manipulated by Government to its own ends and agenda, and no-one falls on their sword. In fact someone near the top got extra promotion.

Bartfast, it sounds as though I know what I am talking about, and I probably don't know any of the facts, as you would say.

I post this only in the knowledge that this is what I believe to be true. I am only a member of Joe Public. I would be prepared to bet 10 bob (50p) that a majority of the other Joe Public members in this country feel exactly the same way, and are just as disgusted with what has happened.

As for torture, I maintain it is not right to torture people who have not been found guilty at any trial at the investigation stage. If people are found guilty of terrorist charges, then I don't give a monkey's cuss what painful treatment is wrought upon them...

The actual title in this thread speaks volumes, why not for paedophilia or say kidnappings (or a multitude of other crimes) ?

Hell why not in the case of illegal invasions ?
Perhaps we should torture Blair in order to extract why we went to war ?

Z

The actual title in this thread speaks volumes, why not for paedophilia or say kidnappings (or a multitude of other crimes) ?

Hell why not in the case of illegal invasions ?
Perhaps we should torture Blair in order to extract why we went to war ?

Z

You may not intend it, but your postings could be interpreted as anti-British pro-extremist Muslim stance.

Not what you really want to promote harmony, but great if you're generating recruitment for the BNP.

I don't, and never have, blamed the Intelligence Operatives for the failure of Intelligence submitted to The Government in relation to the Iraq War. I concur with your view that the events leading up to this catastrophe lay firmly at the door of politicians.

I do, however, put a massive responsibility upon those at the top of any organisation when such a gross mismanagement of the truth is allowed to be manipulated by Government to its own ends and agenda, and no-one falls on their sword. In fact someone near the top got extra promotion.

Bartfast, it sounds as though I know what I am talking about, and I probably don't know any of the facts, as you would say.

I post this only in the knowledge that this is what I believe to be true. I am only a member of Joe Public. I would be prepared to bet 10 bob (50p) that a majority of the other Joe Public members in this country feel exactly the same way, and are just as disgusted with what has happened.

As for torture, I maintain it is not right to torture people who have not been found guilty at any trial at the investigation stage. If people are found guilty of terrorist charges, then I don't give a monkey's cuss what painful treatment is wrought upon them...

I certainly agree with you over the 'falling on swords' bit.