Has anybody any information on 'The Cock Crowing Stone'.

It stands on the edge of an outcrop of rock on the moorland before you get to the top of Moscar?

I'd love to find out more about the carving, the age of it and its original purpose.

Hi PopT

First the marker stone in Hillsborough Park and then the cock crowing stone - is this all from memory or a book?

I had a walk around the park recently but didn't notice anything but if it's only 6" deep it could well be hidden.

No Titty these stones are not out of books.

The Cock Crowing stone can be clearly seen from the road opposite the ol Hollow Meadows Institute.

It must be about 15 feet tall with a face carved on the side near the top.

The Marker stone was there for years and it may have been moved that is why I asked if it was still there and why.


Even so, it was put there for some purpose in the middle of the grass area which was always cut regularly.

I would think if it had no purpose it would have been moved by the grasscutting staff but times move on and someone may well have moved it in recent times.

Sorry Tiffy I spelt your name wrong-pressed the key above F

No offence intended

No offence taken, a little taken aback at first but we all catch the wrong keys from time to time so I knew it was accidental.

By the way - when I asked if the stones were from memory or a book - I wasn't been funny, I just wondered if you'd been reading up on a few things.

When I'm able to use the 'Search' keys when we have converted the 'Sheffield Clarion Ramblers Handbooks', If G.H.B.Ward mentions the 'Stones', I'll come back.

Has anybody any information on 'The Cock Crowing Stone'.

It stands on the edge of an outcrop of rock on the moorland before you get to the top of Moscar?

I'd love to find out more about the carving, the age of it and its original purpose.

i typed cock crowing stones into google and it came up with some more:thumbsup:

Has anybody any information on 'The Cock Crowing Stone'.

POpT,
It stands on the edge of an outcrop of rock on the moorland before you get to the top of Moscar?

I'd love to find out more about the carving, the age of it and its original purpose.

The Cocking Stone on Brown Edge(Moscar)? is also known as Stump John.
I'll find out more and come back later.

I have also heard it called the 'Hedron Stone'.

Happy Days!

Has anybody any information on 'The Cock Crowing Stone'.

It stands on the edge of an outcrop of rock on the moorland before you get to the top of Moscar?

I'd love to find out more about the carving, the age of it and its original purpose.

The walkers group may be passing this or close to it on Sunday next.
I'll try to get a photograph taken

Has anybody any information on 'The Cock Crowing Stone'.

It stands on the edge of an outcrop of rock on the moorland before you get to the top of Moscar?

I'd love to find out more about the carving, the age of it and its original purpose.

PopT Keep your Eye on the walking group site and you will soon see a photo of the stones taken last Sunday. I'll try to fish out some history or someone else reading this could.
If you send me your e-mail over the P.M. I'll send you via attachment *.JPEG files

Albert T Smith

I've sent you a PM.

PopT Happy Days!

Albert T Smith

I've sent you a PM.

PopT Happy Days!

I've been up again today and sent the first ten *.JPEG's
Hope that they come out after traveling half way around the world in minutes!!
They have gone a lot further than I ever have.
Near the to the rock I found a square stone trough about a foot square,
Do you or anyone else have any ideas where it came from and for what reason it's their?
I've taken a couple of photographs of it. (Anyone want one to look at them)
If anyone else wants pictures, Hopefully they will be with the walking group thread orlet me know.

If ' Brenda ' is or was a sister of someone using the the forum.
The plaque is still there and I've got a photograph of it.

I noted a couple of Lapwings, Pee-Wit, Golden Plovers today.

Hi Albert T Smith

I was told there was a spring near the rock and so I guess the stone trough was used to collect the water.

Troughs were made in the Rivelin Valley at the bottom of Spout Lane and I guess many other places in the surrounding area.

The Millstone Grit grindstones were carved on the moors so they didn't carry any surplus weight.

It would be convenient to make and fit a trough for drinking purposes for the animals that carried the grindstones as well as providing a drink for the grindstone carvers

I was told that the stone was considered a holy place with ancient rituals taking place there but this could just be hot air.

It is one reason I started this posting asking for information about the stone.

I know there is one or two forummers who are knowledgable about the occult and alternative religions but sadly no one has come up with anything.

The sight of the memorial stone at the foot of the stone quite took me by surprise.

I would love to know why this spot has been chosen to remember Betty, I say this with all respect to the family concerned.

I do hope the family respond as she must have been a special person.

PopT
( ' I would love to know why this spot has been chosen to remember Betty, I say this with all respect to the family concerned '.
I do hope the family respond as she must have been a special person ' ).

Correction PopT: - The name is ' Brenda ' so your posting should be altered.

And before another is added. Could I suggest that you get all the above written down and recorded on the forum. It is history and it will save hours of research by someone who will welcome it in a few years time when we are not able to reply to questions.

Having said that, ' I hope its a very long time coming!!'.

*****************
Popt
I was told there was a spring near the rock and so I guess the stone trough was used to collect the water.
*******************
When I've the time, I will walk up again take some more photograph's and measurement's and look for a, ' possible Spring '. Looking at the video which I've taken, I can't see any indication of a spring. Anyway the climb up will do me good.
I'll have it done prior to your arrival.
-----------------
Late flash before I go to Bed:
Photos taken yesterday can be found on the walking groups site.

I have some stuff about this in a book somewhere and I will go look it up - from what i remember the 'face' is considered to be natural, not carved and shows up best in morning or evening light.
I think it was called a 'cock crowing stone' because it was thought to get up and turn around at cock crow!!

Wait a moment while I go have a quick look.....

Ok, found it - info from the book 'Strange South Yorkshire' by David Clarke, published by Sigma.
Also known the 'Head Stone' - local historian S. O. Addy wrote ' it is said that on a certain morning in the year these stones turn round when the sun shines on them' and also 'the rock or stone is said to turn around on a certain morning in the year when the cock crows'
Addy believed that it was a probable site of former pagan rites and mentions other stones in the area said to turn around on certain mornings, including one on Baslow Edge known as the 'Eagle' or 'Witch' stone.
The book goes on to say that there is some debate over the origin of the Head Stone, quoting the Sheffield Telegraph of 1937 as writing 'one can hardly imagine it being in that position haphazard'
The book also suggests that maybe the fact that the 'face' on the stone is most striking in morning light gave rise to the idea of the face 'appearing' in the morning as the stone turned. It also mentions that earlier writers have interpreted the name 'Cock Crow Stone' as meaning that cockerels were sacrificed there or that it is an equivalent to 'Sunrise Stone' - It is apparently a marker for the Midwinter Solstice sunrise from stones at the burial mound at Whirlow.

Hope all this is useful - the book is fascinating by the way, I can recommend it if it is still available.

Cheers

Thanks to Albert T Smith for pointing out I had written Betty instead of Brenda which was on the Memoriam at the foot of the stone.

Apologies to everyone.

If I knew how to alter it I would.

PopT

Albert T Smith

I do hope you find the spring and whilst you are there see if you can check the the earth's magnetism as it is supposed to be high, maybe this is why the ancient's used the place for rituals.

Don't be disappointed if you do not find a spring still flowing as there have been many changes to the land above there, particularly along the ancient ridgeway.

Probably the first to make changes were the Roman legion who built the ancient way into a road.

Then when you look at the changes made by the Enclosures Acts when the land was walled and more roads were built followed by farmhouses and then domestic houses.

The natural springs have been redirected and piped and even run into dams.

Many of the springs are seasonal and only appear at certain times of the year when they sometimes appear in the unlikeliest of places, sometimes defying all laws of gravity and physics.

Good luck anyway, we'll all be interested in your findings.

Some years ago a team of interested archaeologists went up to study the stone and found the sun on the stone did in fact make the top stone appear to rotate.

I have never seen a report but it would be interesting to know if anything was published in such as The Hunter's Archaeological Society Journal or even a paper produced at the university.

If anyone out there knows of something do let us know.

Happy Days!

Cis_H & PopT & anyone else
I'm going up to the Headstone again shortly. I intend to take a much closer look at the stones and surrounding area.
I'll be using my Video, Digital camera, measuring tape & Compass, so along with the information that I've got already, I hope to be able to report back some interesting things.

Has anyone else got any more information?

Finally, I must add, that when I looked at the video tape that I'd taken last Monday of the Headstone. ( Cock Crow Stone). The top stone definitely resembled a face which has been carved out of the rock.
I'm sure this would be verified by anyone else who looks at it, I'm sure.

The latest that I've found from:-Clarion Handbook 1923 Page 077.

Stump John or Cock Crowing Stone.

Stump John or the "Cock Crowing Stone," on the 6 in. to m. map, is now called the Head Stone (1), altitude 1075 feet. It stands 200 yards to the West of the footpath from the Ocean View Cottage (Redmires,) to Surrey Farm, and, as seen from near this latter point, is a prominent object on the moor slope.

It is thus described in Johann Zimmermann's "Historical and Antiquarian Sketches of the Neighbourhood of Sheffield," published in 1863. See copy in vol. 10 of local pamphlets - Jackson collection, in Sheffield Reference Library.

"Stump John," or what is usually called the "crow-cocking stone," is a massive pillar on the edge of the moors beyond (2), placed perpendicularly on the rock which forms its base. It would be a prominent guide when the whole of this district was wild moorland forest. The action of the weather has formed its top into a series of perforations which almost resemble the honeycomb decorations of the Alhambra."

(1) This seems to be another map alteration of an interesting name. The proper name is Stump John, or the Cock crowing Stone, and probably because the cock grouse often make their calls from this well perched rock. I am not aware of the origin of Stump John.

(2) "Beyond" means west of the Rivelin Reservoirs, misnamed Hollowmeadows Reservoirs.


*******************************************

And Clarion Handbook 1939 Page 082.

One day, after the article in the 1933 Handbook was printed, I was talking to our Holmesfield character, FERDINAND SILCOCK, and mentioned " PRIESTLEY'S STONE" to him.

At once he said that, probably fully forty years ago, when he was engaged as a beater for the grouse shooting on White Path Moss and Burbage Moors, he and " Tommy Raandeaad " (THOMAS MARSHALL, of Dore), used to bury a bottle of beer near this "PRIESTLEY STONE " after each shoot and leave it there until the following year.

Said " Ferdy " " it wer' proper ' stingo ' next year. Ah carried t'beer an' Tommy carried t'birds," and you bet " Ferdy " had his share of that beer.

The beaters, he said, used to " flag " near PRIESTLEY'S STONE, and flank the flying grouse towards the shooting butts.

Ferdinand also informed me that the name they knew for Priestley's Stone was "Stump John," and this gives corroboration for the statement I made that the Stone, or " Stump," was named after JOHN PRIESTLEY, of Overstones Farm.
************************
Has anyone got anything more to add?
Thank you

I would definitely agree that it appears to have a face - Its been a few years since I went up there, but I remember it. The 'Strange South Yorkshire' book has quite a good photo, too, taken in the early morning so the light highlights the features.

Whilst at the Headstone or "Cock Crowing Stone " taking photographs last Monday afternoon, I had a feeling that someone else was with me, though I know no one was, except my dog.
When I was ready to descend to Hollow Meadows where I had arranged to meet my wife who was with the parked car. I gave her a ring on my mobile.

I mentioned this sensation of being with someone for the first time this evening to her. She replied, ' I thought that you was with someone when I looked up to the Headstone when you phoned '!!.

Does someone know something that I don't know?
Anyone fancy spending the night up near the stone? or has anyone already?

I would definitely agree that it appears to have a face - Its been a few years since I went up there, but I remember it. The 'Strange South Yorkshire' book has quite a good photo, too, taken in the early morning so the light highlights the features.

I hope to receive the book next Tuesday or Wednesday.
If the weather is still fine, I'll have another trip up to the headstone taking more video film and photos.
Anyone fancy joining me?
Anyone passing and looking up at the Headstone from Hollow Meadows, above the Riverlin Dams after Wednesday or Thursday this week, will know if the Headstone had turned whilst I was their, by the appearance of a yellowish brown streak across the moorland down the hill!! If their's two, Someone else had joined me!!
I received the book today (Wed 25/04/07) so I'll be going up fully armed!!(With running shoes on!!)

I visited the Headstone today and took some more video and photographs.
One picture shows a rock which is laid flat on the ground with a number similar to 15 cut in and at its bottom a channel runs into a trough which was cut out at some time. Does anyone have any idea about why? or for information about the stones? Anyone wanting a copy of the picture I'll be pleased to send them one. (Providing its not for resale).

Cis_H & PopT & anyone else
I'm going up to the Headstone again shortly. I intend to take a much closer look at the stones and surrounding area.
I'll be using my Video, Digital camera, measuring tape & Compass, so along with the information that I've got already, I hope to be able to report back some interesting things.

Has anyone else got any more information?

Finally, I must add, that when I looked at the video tape that I'd taken last Monday of the Headstone. ( Cock Crow Stone). The top stone definitely resembled a face which has been carved out of the rock.
I'm sure this would be verified by anyone else who looks at it, I'm sure.

It does resemble a face and is part of the superstitious past. I wouldn't get too carried away or let your imagination go wild as Cock-Crow Stones seem to be part of mythology.

THE COCK-CROW STONE.
A ROCK of white marble (?) with many rock basins on its surface lies in Looe harbour, under Saunder's Lane, and is now -covered by every tide. This stone once stood on the top of an elevated rock near it, and when in this position, whenever it heard a cock crow in the neighbouring farmyard of Hay, it turned round three times.

The topmost stone of that curious pile of rocks in the parish of St Cleer known as the Cheesewring is gifted in like manner. Even now the poultry-yards are very distant, but in ancient days the cocks must have crowed most lustily, to have produced vibrations on either the sensitive rock or the tympanum of man.

http://www.aren.org/prison/documents/english/3/3.pdf


Knock Kishtey, " Hill of the Chest," later Knock Usgey, now Ballacooill, may perhaps have taken its name from the great block of stone with a smaller one facing it which borders the Bayr Mooar near the farm-house. Squarish boulders are often thus called, and are sometimes distinguished with a story of magical treasure ; Coan ny Kishtey in Lonan is an eminent example. The only unusual property of the Bayr Mooar specimen, so far as I have heard, is its ability to turn round three times when it hears the cock crow. Apart from the sly joke which depends upon the word " when," a sufficient number of turning stones could be found in the British Isles alone to compose a revolving mountain such as the one in Anglesey mentioned in the Irish Nennius. I do not, however, recall another in the Isle of Man. One in South-West Somerset which performs the same feat every New Year morning and is therefore called “the Cock-crow Stone " has the reputation of hiding beneath it a great crock of gold. A team of horses, it is said, has been unable to shift it, and the opinion is that it is rooted in the bottom of the hill and that the crock of gold is in safe keeping.-(Tales of the Blackdown Borderland, page 101.)

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/scrap1/ch04_pk.htm


The landscape around Hallam or Stannage Moors is due to deer hunting in the middle ages and the enclosure of the moors for grouse shooting at the end of the eighteenth century.

G.

I visited the Headstone today and took some more video and photographs.
One picture shows a rock which is laid flat on the ground with a number similar to 15 cut in and at its bottom a channel runs into a trough which was cut out at some time. Does anyone have any idea about why? or for information about the stones? Anyone wanting a copy of the picture I'll be pleased to send them one. (Providing its not for resale).

Hi Albert
The stone with the number will be one of many, all numbered, all over the moor. They were cut as water troughs for the grouse. You can see several on Stanage Edge as well. Some people make it a hobby to find them all, though I heard a rumour a little while ago that since the new CROW act, the present landowner is having the numbers removed to discourage people wandering all over the moor looking for them.

May I point you in the direction of David Hey's Historic Hallamshire book {ISBN 1 84306 049 3} in which you will find a large section dedicated to the stones and other interesting geographical features located on Hallam moors.

Here's just a small section: "In 1907..William Wilson therefore decided to employ his masons to create artificial troughs in the natural boulders that were littered around his moorland estate. A typical basin is about 18" long and 12" wide but some are much larger. Number 19 on Stanage Edge - the largest of all - has a trough that is five feet long by two feet wide. Rainwater is fed into the basins by long runnels, which were cut to fit the shape of the rock. Each stone is numbered in sequence. Such 'grouse-drinking troughs' or 'rock basins' are a familiar sight to walkers along Stanage Edge and they have become a subject of much discussion."

There is also a reference to Cock Crowing Stone, although to the best of my knowledge it isn't referred to under this name.

Thanks Ousetunes, I knew I'd read it somewhere, and I know it's one of David Hey's pet subjects, but I couldn't remember where I'd seen it!

Hi Albert
The stone with the number will be one of many, all numbered, all over the moor. They were cut as water troughs for the grouse. You can see several on Stanage Edge as well. Some people make it a hobby to find them all, though I heard a rumour a little while ago that since the new CROW act, the present landowner is having the numbers removed to discourage people wandering all over the moor looking for them.

I can fully understand the reasoning behind the present landowner thinking along the lines of having the stones removed but because it would be a tragedy for the next generation I hope that it doesn't happen. However, last Sunday whilst I was up at the stones, two middle ages men walked past the headstone and climbed over a very attractively, newly built, stone wall which enabled them to cross the adjacent moorland, presumable toward Stanage. Had they took the trouble of deviating their route by approx one or two hundred yards they could have avoided risking any damage to the wall, by using the gate.

Anyway thank you all for contributing to the thread started by PopT who hopefully will be visiting Sheffield from 'Down Under' shortly. I've learned a lot about the Headstones and by the time I've finished reading all the reference documents suggested, I might have well be needing a Headstone!!
Any and all bits or references are welcome so keep all the bits coming in.

OuseTunes - May I point you in the direction of David Hey's Historic Hallamshire book {ISBN 1 84306 049 3} in which you will find a large section dedicated to the stones and other interesting geographical features located on Hallam moors.

I've just bought the book through Amazon and should recieve it shortly.
I may change my name to ' Stone Mason ' after I've read it!!

But why did these, ' Grouse drinking troughs', require numbering?

According to David Hey there are 108 troughs in 3 numbered sequences. Why? I suppose it would be an easier way of referring to them than 'the one 325 yards east of the path from a to b' and before grid references were in common use. After all, to use grid refs you need a map, and I don't think early 20th century gamekeepers used them.. I can't think of any other reason except because William Wilson the landowner liked to put a mark on anything he owned. In the book there's a photo of one of eleven identical stones with his initials on that are stuck in the middle of the moors to mark the boundary between his grouse moors and his neighbour's. The first trough bears the number 1, and also has "W WILSON 1907" carved on it. Perhaps they were all going to have his name on but it took too long and cost too much!

According to David Hey there are 108 troughs in 3 numbered sequences. Why? I suppose it would be an easier way of referring to them than 'the one 325 yards east of the path from a to b' and before grid references were in common use. After all, to use grid refs you need a map, and I don't think early 20th century gamekeepers used them.. I can't think of any other reason except because William Wilson the landowner liked to put a mark on anything he owned. In the book there's a photo of one of eleven identical stones with his initials on that are stuck in the middle of the moors to mark the boundary between his grouse moors and his neighbour's. The first trough bears the number 1, and also has "W WILSON 1907" carved on it. Perhaps they were all going to have his name on but it took too long and cost too much!

I hope that you don't mind me suggesting, but if the rumour regarding the land owners intention is to remove the stones. May I suggest that you or some others, go to all the ones that are known with a GPS and Digital Camera and record a picture with the exact position of them.
Someone in the future will be most thankful I'm sure.
Or has this already been done by someone else?

I'm pretty sure David Hey and his friends have already done it Albert. The rumour was that the numbers were being removed from the stones, not the stones themselves, which are earthfast and would be quite a job to move. You'll find the chapter in the Hallamshire book very interesting I'm sure!

I'm pretty sure David Hey and his friends have already done it Albert. The rumour was that the numbers were being removed from the stones, not the stones themselves, which are earthfast and would be quite a job to move. You'll find the chapter in the Hallamshire book very interesting I'm sure!

The books now on its way from the United States and I'm looking forward to having a read. If David Hey or any of his friends can add more to what as been mentioned I trust that they will join the discussion.

If its David Hey would you also sign my copy when it arrives. Thank you.
(You should set ' algy ' up as one of your saleman!!).

If its David Hey would you also sign my copy when it arrives. Thank you.
(You should set ' algy ' up as one of your saleman!!).
I hold no remit for David Hey unfortunately, he just happens to be one of the most prolific and readable writers about this area!
Algy

The person who started this thread is PopT who is presently traveling via Asia and schedule to arrive in Sheffield around the middle of May.
All being well when he arrives I'll be meeting him for a meal and a natter, during which I'm going to suggest that we visit the Headstone or Cock Crowing Stone or Stump John, providing that the weather remains fine.

The flat or down hill walking route which I'll suggest starts from The Redmires Dam and follows the flat viaduct, then down the path to the Headstone. Then either continue down the path to Surrey Farm, Hollow Meadows or down a slightly less steep path down to the top of Rivelin Dams where by previous arrangement a car(s) would pick us up.

If PopT is in agreement would anyone else like to join the trip?

Hi PopT

First the marker stone in Hillsborough Park and then the cock crowing stone - is this all from memory or a book?

I had a walk around the park recently but didn't notice anything but if it's only 6" deep it could well be hidden.

Did anyone find out what happened to the Marker Stone in Hillsborough Park?

May I point you in the direction of David Hey's Historic Hallamshire book {ISBN 1 84306 049 3} in which you will find a large section dedicated to the stones and other interesting geographical features located on Hallam moors.

Here's just a small section: "In 1907..William Wilson therefore decided to employ his masons to create artificial troughs in the natural boulders that were littered around his moorland estate. A typical basin is about 18" long and 12" wide but some are much larger. Number 19 on Stanage Edge - the largest of all - has a trough that is five feet long by two feet wide. Rainwater is fed into the basins by long runnels, which were cut to fit the shape of the rock. Each stone is numbered in sequence. Such 'grouse-drinking troughs' or 'rock basins' are a familiar sight to walkers along Stanage Edge and they have become a subject of much discussion."

There is also a reference to Cock Crowing Stone, although to the best of my knowledge it isn't referred to under this name.

OuseTunes
I recieved David Hey's book this morning straight from Florida, U.S.A.
From briefly browsing through it I feel that I'm going to enjoy reading it.
I've learnt a couple of things already that have puzzled me for years.
Thank you for your suggestion.

PopT. - Are you ready for the trip to the Head-Stone, then going for a meal next week if it's dry? We could do it the other way round, but after a good meal, I don't think we would make the Head-Stone!!

I have been reading all the postings with great interest and I thankyou all for the information you have provided.

Your doing a good job Albert and I would love to join you in a trip to see the stone again but not for a little while as I am currently in Denmark visiting my family.

I will be in Sheffield about mid July and will be in touch with you.

Happy Days!