Was wondering if anyone can help?

Am thinking about building an extension on the back of my house at some point. A two storey one to make the kitchen bigger and bathroom and bedroom upstairs bigger. I'm in a typical terraced house, no-one needs to pass my house to get to their back door.

The house on one side has done the same thing so I don't think it's a problem with planning permission. However, I noticed last night that when the neighbours built their extension (which comes out further than the back of my house), their new walls overlap the seperating line down the middle of the two houses, so that the bricks are completely on my property (their inner wall would be in line with the seperating line). If I now decide to build an extension, I would lose space inside as the brick is in my house.

Are the neighbours allowed to do this? Can I make them move their wall? Does anyone know the law about sharing walls? Should they have built the new walls entirely on their side of the line or can they overlap?

Boring questions, but hopefully someone on here can help. Tried searching net but found it hard to know what to put in the search!

Sheffield councils website is pretty good with some good advice on there, but cant remember how to look it up. Maybe some helpful person on here knows.
p.s. party wall act is very complicated!

Originally posted by Foxxx
Are the neighbours allowed to do this?
No.

Originally posted by Foxxx
I make them move their wall?
Yes… or take it down.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Does anyone know the law about sharing walls?
A little ;) You need a solicitor and possibly a Party Wall Surveyor if it gets nasty. The first job is to get your solicitor to write a letter right after they have ignored you when you pop round to ask them nicely about it.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Should they have built the new walls entirely on their side of the line or can they overlap?
It’s your land… or possibly your building society’s land! They have no rights whatsoever to build on it, and they probably haven’t fulfilled the requirements of the Party Wall Act either. It has nothing to do with Planning Permission or Building Regulations – it’s a civil legal matter, and nothing to do with the Council.

If you own your house outright (no mortgage or secured loans) AND the freehold I suggest that a suitable cash payment and Title transfer for the appropriate bit of land would be a way forward - About £5k - £10k should do it and they pay your legal and surveying expenses. Otherwise they take it down, and you should get a court order to support that.

If you have a mortgage you really should do something about the encroachment (the legal term for what’s happened). It may be impossible to sell your house unless you sort it out. This way, they will have to take it down, and again you should get a court order if needed.

most old terraces have single brick dividing walls, why not use their wall as part of your extension. get advice first though

Originally posted by mikosavi
why not use their wall as part of your extension.
That's REALLY bad advice! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by mikosavi
most old terraces have single brick dividing walls, why not use their wall as part of your extension. get advice first though

Because they have overlapped by an entire brick, so if and when I build my extension, my inside wall would not by straight. The new bit would be narrower due to the fact that the wall encroaches on my side! I would want to have a normal flat wall for the whole kitchen not a chimney breast effect where that bit sticks out!

Originally posted by Tony


If you have a mortgage you really should do something about the encroachment (the legal term for what’s happened). It may be impossible to sell your house unless you sort it out. This way, they will have to take it down, and again you should get a court order if needed.

Thanks for your advise. I didn't know much about it to be honest. The extension was already there when I bought my house about 18 months ago but I didn't notice it to be honest as being single at the time and not having ever built anything I wasn't looking for it! I don't really know how long its been there. Its definately an extension though as you can tell by the newness of the bricks etc. Do you know if there is a time limit to make a complaint about these things??

Of course, I don't want to create an agrument with my neighbour. But then again, it's not exactly fair on me either! I don't know them that side to be honest, I think its an old lady (oh it would be wouldn't it! to make me feel bad!).

Well you've just opened up another can of worms now :( and I think that you should get some advice from a specialist surveyor and valuer who has experience with 'Party Wall and boundary disputes' (use those exact words - they will understand).

In Sheffield you could try Mark Jenkinson & Son or Fowler Sandford for starters. MJ&S might be more amenable to coming and having a look before you commit to paying fees, but ask them.

Then, depending on their advice you will need a solicitor, preferably one experienced in litigation (not divorce / wills / etc... or even conveyencing !! ), maybe someone like Lewis Francis or Morton Price.

In the meantime it might be useful to write to the Records Section at the Planning Department to see if there is any record of an extension being granted planning permission at the next door address. Your neighbour won't know anything about your enquiry. Their address is:

Sheffield City Council Planning Dep't
Howden House
1 Union Street
Sheffield
S1 2SH

You seem to know an awful lot about this! :)

It's surprising that this wasn't picked up by the surveyor and searches when you bought your house. Check through their reports and see if it's mentioned.

So they have a cavity wall where the outside row of bricks is on your land? When you build your ext, wouldn't you use that row of bricks as your internal wall? So it would effectively become your wall.

Edit: Just noticed Tony has already kinda answered that one ("That's really bad advice"). Why's that, Tony? If the neighbour agrees, the paperwork gets done and the resulting structure is sound, then it would make sense? (Several 'if's there of course..) There's no way to sort out the uneven bit without knocking down the whole wall?

Garrence - Terraced houses are usually 9 inch solid brick construction so don't have a cavity wall. I know because we moved out of one 2 years ago that we lived in for over 20 years. Also I imagine that Tony means that this way any problems with their wall would also become Foxx's problem. This includes problems with the building regs, which can be pricey, especially since that would mean that next door's extension would also need to be reinspected by the building regs inspector and I don't know about Foxx but I certainly wouldn't fancy having to pay for next door's extension being inspected as it isn't cheap. (oops, just edited that because the sentence was ridiculously long!.):blush:

Foxxx - I'd be inclined to contact Anne Emmerson again - you've said before she was your solicitor for your conveyencing. I'm pretty sure she would be able to advise you on this she is pretty clued up - we used her for our house move 2 years ago so I know. However, I think Tony is correct it does sound like this wouldn't have had planning permission in the first place - which any 2 storey extension should have. However, you don't need planning permission for a single storey extension just building regulations certification.

Hope this helps

Originally posted by wendy
However, you don't need planning permission for a single storey extension just building regulations certification.

I'm afraid that you need PP for virtually everything, and a kitchen extention to the side of the house most certainly will, single storey or not.

Originally posted by Tony
I'm afraid that you need PP for virtually everything, and a kitchen extention to the side of the house most certainly will, single storey or not.

I got this from the booklet supplied by the Planning Department Tony - alot of it goes on how much it increases your living space, for example a conservatory would not usually need planning permission unless you already have an extension. I could have misinterpretted this but basically that is what it says.

You're half right, and not really completely wrong ;) In this case it goes on whether you are increasing the "habitable space". See my previous points... even conservatories have specific planning rules about whether they need planning - for example if you dont have a proper locking external door into it from the house, it needs planning permission.

The area thing you mention really practically only covers porches, and it's only about 2 sq m from memory.

Planning is a minefield if you aren't involved in it for a living, AND it changes all the time, AND I'm trying to keep it simple :). The best policy is to assume that you WILL need PP, and work down from that. The extension in question sounds like it increases the habitable space, therefore it needs PP. I haven't seen it, but my advice is a specialist surveyor.

Here's a couple more planning foibles for you - did you know that you can't prune your garden trees if you live in a conservation area unless you have permission? In the Peak National Park you can only paint your windows white!

Originally posted by Classic Rock
It's surprising that this wasn't picked up by the surveyor and searches when you bought your house. Check through their reports and see if it's mentioned.

It wasn't mentioned. Do they have to? I don't know if that's their job or not to be honest. If it is, perhaps they missed it, or perhaps next door haven't done anything wrong because there is some loophole in the law that we don't know about!

You won't like this, but building society valuation surveyors often dont even get out of the car!

It's unlikey that they would pick this up unless you paid for a detailed fabric and condition survey - and then it might be missed.

Originally posted by garrence
So they have a cavity wall where the outside row of bricks is on your land? When you build your ext, wouldn't you use that row of bricks as your internal wall? So it would effectively become your wall.

Edit: Just noticed Tony has already kinda answered that one ("That's really bad advice"). Why's that, Tony? If the neighbour agrees, the paperwork gets done and the resulting structure is sound, then it would make sense? (Several 'if's there of course..) There's no way to sort out the uneven bit without knocking down the whole wall?

As I said, I could use the wall they have built yes, but why should I have to lose space on my side?? They have created extra space in their extension by using the separating line as the basis for the inside wall.

Does anyone know, do terraces have a double separating wall or a single thickness shared one??

Originally posted by Tony
You won't like this, but building society valuation surveyors often dont even get out of the car!

It's unlikey that they would pick this up unless you paid for a detailed fabric and condition survey - and then it might be missed.

I paid for the more expensive survey (the middle one i.e. ~£300) as opposed to the basic one or the really expensive one used for really old buildings.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Does anyone know, do terraces have a double separating wall or a single thickness shared one??

The one I lived in had single thickness solid brick

Originally posted by wendy
The one I lived in had single thickness solid brick

I need to check. If it's single thickness then they should have built it half on their side, half on mine so it could be shared. If it's double they should have built it completely on their side then I would put one up completely on my side so they touch. Inside walls would then be level on both sides.

Chances are it will be single as that was how they used to build them, especially if it is Victorian. However it should be on that surveyors report you had done - under main details about construction I think.

Originally posted by Foxxx
I paid for the more expensive survey (the middle one i.e. ~£300) as opposed to the basic one or the really expensive one used for really old buildings.

Well £300 isn't a fortune for a detailed survey in all honesty. I think that the options are...
a. They missed it. (the most likely).
b. The Land Registry Title Plan shows it.
c. The Title Plan is unclear and the surveyor ignored / fudged it.

To try to help, what do you really want to achieve Foxxx?

Do you want the wall moving, or do you want cash and a straight extension on your house, or do you want to build your extension round it with some cash?

On the matter of construction, you will in NO CIRCUMSTANCES be able to build an external wall without a cavity. If the neighbours wall was built in recent history (as you suggested) then it will have a cavity too - providing it has Building Reg's and Planning consents of course! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Tony

On the matter of construction, you will in NO CIRCUMSTANCES be able to build an external wall without a cavity. If the neighbours wall was built in recent history (as you suggested) then it will have a cavity too - providing it has Building Reg's and Planning consents of course! :rolleyes:

Doh! I forgot about that Tony - the terraced I lived in didn't have an extension you see and as we had to allow access to next door it wasn't practical to have one. :D

Cheeky monkey :P I think we're at cross purposes tho' Wendy. I just meant the neighbours extension was modern, therefore it will be 2 bricks with a cavity, rather than a single brick thick.

Or am I still at cross purposes with myself? I'm all confused now:(

Originally posted by Tony
Cheeky monkey :P I think we're at cross purposes tho' Wendy. I just meant the neighbours extension was modern, therefore it will be 2 bricks with a cavity, rather than a single brick thick.

Or am I still at cross purposes with myself? I'm all confused now:(

:P No I meant doh at myself because I took your post to mean that.:P I'll have to start getting to bed earlier at night it's getting to me - I spend too much time on here late at night. :D

Generally, no part of any dwelling should encroach over a neighbouring boundry, not even the likes of a gutter. Odds are they never even went through planning. :nono:

Originally posted by wendy
:P No I meant doh at myself because I took your post to mean that.:P I'll have to start getting to bed earlier at night it's getting to me - I spend too much time on here late at night. :D I know the feeling!

Originally posted by Tony
Well £300 isn't a fortune for a detailed survey in all honesty. I think that the options are...
a. They missed it. (the most likely).
b. The Land Registry Title Plan shows it.
c. The Title Plan is unclear and the surveyor ignored / fudged it.

To try to help, what do you really want to achieve Foxxx?

Do you want the wall moving, or do you want cash and a straight extension on your house, or do you want to build your extension round it with some cash?

On the matter of construction, you will in NO CIRCUMSTANCES be able to build an external wall without a cavity. If the neighbours wall was built in recent history (as you suggested) then it will have a cavity too - providing it has Building Reg's and Planning consents of course! :rolleyes:

What do I want to achieve, to be honest I really don't know! I don't want to cause problems for the neighbour, but at the same time I don't want to lose space in my extension either! Its a tricky one, I don't want money as such but I also don't want to be out of pocket myself if I have to look into it all. I don't want to make them knock it down as that would be awful for them, but they should have thought of that, and if they've been sneaky then it's their own fault!
I'm only thinking about the extension at the mo, so will need to get someone round to have a look at it all before I do anything I guess. Thanks for your advice :)

It's a tough decision Foxxx, and I don't envy you. At least if you have a professional opinion on the legalities you have some sort of starting point. Good luck, and you can always shout it you need some more help. :thumbsup:

if your neighbours have planning permission, then the new wall is part yours anyway? why not use it as your side.
otherwise, they should have built to half brick width.

so why is this bad advice tony?

Just because someone builds something on your land it doesn't make it yours.

If you use someone elses property and incorporate it into your building then you are opening up another can of worms in terms of liabilites and responsibilities. It just makes things much, much more complicated, and a judge will have to sort it out.

Foxx,

You may want to check your home and contents insurance policy to see if you have any Legal Expenses Insurance cover attached to it. You may be entitled to free legal advice and the use of a solicitor to pursue a claim against your neighbours for encroaching your land. Some policies do cover disputes relating to the ownership or occupation of your property.

Good luck!:thumbsup:

Foxx, if you're in a trade union they usually offer free legal advice for cases like this.

Originally posted by max
Foxx, if you're in a trade union they usually offer free legal advice for cases like this.

I'm not in a trade union. I thought you were only in them with particular jobs etc, or can you just join one? My bf is in one, so maybe he can get advice seeing as he lives with me. Although saying that, it sounds like his trade union is corrupt. He, like everyone else, pays into it and gets nothing out of it!

I can get free advice from my solicitor though who dealt with me buying my house in the first place.

Originally posted by Ying
Foxx,

You may want to check your home and contents insurance policy to see if you have any Legal Expenses Insurance cover attached to it. You may be entitled to free legal advice and the use of a solicitor to pursue a claim against your neighbours for encroaching your land. Some policies do cover disputes relating to the ownership or occupation of your property.

Good luck!:thumbsup:

Hadn't thought of that, I'll have a look :)

If you are good neighbours to each other, This is one problem that is easily sorted. Have you decided to build an extention for definate, Are you just thinking about this, Or has there been some disagreement with your neighbour that compells you to take action of this kind. Maybe this matter can be solved via the builders and the planning office if and when you decide to have an extention. That would be the easiest course of action. However, I do sense a neighbourly dispute here

Some good and some iffy advice above.

Try asking the people on the forum here: http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/

Although historically buildings were built 'leaning' onto the next, we no longer do it for legal reasons, so your extension would need to be another couple of inches away from this structure.

I think four years is the length of time you have to object if something has been built differently to plans, but this has been built on your land and probably has different rules applying to it.

Good luck.

And don't fall for the 'little old lady' thing. If you have some scenarios (eg, her purchase of the land) lined up that you find acceptable, you may find a quick solution to this. The trick is to have two options for her to choose, and the third is all out war, which she will lose (check your facts first!).

Is this related?
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22242

It only costs £4 to do a Land Registry search on line.It may or may not help, but it will show your boundaries.
Interesting thread,
Good Luck.

Originally posted by Foxxx
I need to check. If it's single thickness then they should have built it half on their side, half on mine so it could be shared. If it's double they should have built it completely on their side then I would put one up completely on my side so they touch. Inside walls would then be level on both sides.

Your post here just about sums it up. They won't have built a solid (1 brick wall) it will be a cavity wall. You say it's built completely on your side of the boundary - well that's a legal matter now. You need to see a solicitor and be prepared for the ricochets.

The planners have very little to do with it - since the line of the boundary is a matter of where the two parties agree the line is. And in any case anyone can actually obtain planning approval to build within your land, although they would have no legal right to build on it. In addition the exension, if small enough, may not even have needed planning approval - 'permitted development' is the jargon.

Building Regulations is another matter. Any building work requires this. If it has building regulations approval I'm surprised the town hall surveyor didn't spot this encroachment.

More than likely a wide boy builder did the job without planning or building regs approval and your recourse is via a solicitor I' m afraid. The correct outcome is that they dismantle the wall and rebuild it completely on their side of the boundary, all at their expense including your legal costs.

Once this is done, your own extension would similarly just butt up to the boundary line in a similar way.

This reminds me of a neighbours from hell programme I watched. I am forunate to have good neighbours. And, To be a good neighbour myself.