Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

Just out of interest John Wayne had more than his fair share of plastic surgery in his time....

Pattricia, With regards to Brando perhaps you ought to read THIS (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2035811,00.html) he wasn't quite what his 'public persona' seemed, it would appear!:o :o

Pattricia, With regards to Brando perhaps you ought to read THIS (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2035811,00.html) he wasn't quite what his 'public persona' seemed, it would appear!:o :o
Well maybe I should have said "James Cagney" instead.I do believe Brando could be on the gay side sometimes.:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

Pattricia, With regards to Brando perhaps you ought to read THIS (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2035811,00.html) he wasn't quite what his 'public persona' seemed, it would appear!:o :o

And neither were Rock Hudson, Burt Reynolds and Tony Curtis ..... allegedly.

Not that they weren't what you'd call real men, but they wouldn't be quite what pattricia is looking for.

hey i have tattoos and i object... i'm a proper old school romantic with a contemporary twist of course...

mummy's boy i think not... ladies man more like... :D

It's what the wimmins libbists have made us since they took over advertising & editing magazines...

Reap what ye sow :roll:

If you find any good men out there please let me know. I have not met one yet:huh:

Lol, not all men are like that. I certainly like to think I'm not and I'm sure there are a load others. Just go to cadets, lol :D Isn't being male and in touch with your feminine still the in thing now though? :|

Lol, lol :D Isn't being male and in touch with your feminine still the in thing now though? :|
Only if you bat for the opposition Jim ;)

A real man in my eyes is someone who tells the truth.... will stick by their kin and friends through thick and thin....doesn't judge lightly.... accepts responsibility for their own actions and can admit when they are wrong. :thumbsup:

A real man in my eyes is someone who tells the truth.... will stick by their kin and friends through thick and thin....doesn't judge lightly.... accepts responsibility for their own actions and can admit when they are wrong. :thumbsup:

Totally agree Jake :)

Only if you bat for the opposition

Have to disagree mate. My best friend is in touch with his feminine side and fair doos he's not straight but he's not gay..

I quite like blokes in touch with their feminine side.. they're better than the "I'm a real bloke cause I'm big n butch and no nothing about women" type.

Only if you bat for the opposition Jim ;)

Lol, No, I'm serious. I've been told by some straight female friends previously that lots of girls do like a feminine side in their boyfriends. Not too sure why :| do women think that feminine guys are more caring! You can be caring and masculine at the same time :P lol

I mean, I try to care and I'm not feminine :D

I concur with your observations, Pattricia. So many younger Englishmen, in terms of physique, are either rotund and football-like or of the knock-kneed, watery-eyed, wheezing variety. Where is the robust, broad-shouldered Anglo-Saxon type that formed the backbone of Wellington's armies and manned Nelson's ships? Gone, sadly gone forever, replaced by a spare, puny-framed, slack-jawed tribe that owe more to the pre-Celtic Iberians [the 'shy traffickers' of Matthew Arnold's poem].

As you cogently suggest, effeminacy is rife too amongst younger Englishmen. Many are of the variety who would doubtless 'take their turn in the barrell' if in the company of sailors. They prance, preen and skip like the foppish, mincing Macaronis of old, worshipping their soft, girlish, moisturised visages in so many bathroom mirrors. Some, one suspects, sit for hours in their boudoirs, gazing into their Vanity mirrors , musing upon beauty tips. Others no doubt swap knitting patterns with other rare and beautiful spirits. For many, the umbilical cord is not severed until their thirties, when 'Mummy' replica two comes along in the shape of a wife.

Have no fear though, dear lady. I am of the older [44, yet with a full head of hair, good teeth and the look of a more refined, chiselled Ray Winstone] type of Englishman, and there are others like me too. We too loathe and abhor the decline in traditional masculinity. I am a married man, and happily married too, but please allow me to send you a cyber-kiss. I salute your robust and magnificent sentiments. You are a credit to English womanhood, fair Pattricia.

Timo x

Lol, No, I'm serious. I've been told by some straight female friends previously that lots of girls do like a feminine side in their boyfriends. Not too sure why :| do women think that feminine guys are more caring! You can be caring and masculine at the same time :P lol

I mean, I try to care and I'm not feminine :D

Feminine guys do seem more caring yes because they have a feminine side :rolleyes: they seem to know more about women

We look for that in boyfriends for various reasons but too nice and it just gets icky sicky

I concur with your observations, Pattricia. So many younger Englishmen, in terms of physique, are either rotund and football-like or of the knock-kneed, watery-eyed, wheezing variety. Where is the robust, broad-shouldered Anglo-Saxon type that formed the backbone of Wellington's armies and manned Nelson's ships? Gone, sadly gone forever, replaced by a spare, puny-framed, slack-jawed tribe that owe more to the pre-Celtic Iberians [the 'shy traffickers' of Matthew Arnold's poem].

As you cogently suggest, effeminacy is rife too amongst younger Englishmen. Many are of the variety who would doubtless 'take their turn in the barrell' if in the company of sailors. They prance, preen and skip like the foppish, mincing Macaronis of old, worshipping their soft, girlish, moisturised visages in so many bathroom mirrors. Some, one suspects, sit for hours in their boudoirs, gazing into their Vanity mirrors , musing upon beauty tips. Others no doubt swap knitting patterns with other rare and beautiful spirits. For many, the umbilical cord is not severed until their thirties, when 'Mummy' replica two comes along in the shape of a wife.

Have no fear though, dear lady. I am of the older [44, yet with a full head of hair, good teeth and the look of a more refined, chiselled Ray Winstone] type of Englishman, and there are others like me too. We too loathe and abhor the decline in traditional masculinity. I am a married man, and happily married too, but please allow me to send you a cyber-kiss. I salute your robust and magnificent sentiments. You are a credit to English womanhood, fair Pattricia.

Timo x

timo.....that has got to be a TRULY CLASSIC POST.

I shall put that in My Documents........Bravo :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thankyou, Shoeshine. Didn't you realise? All my postings are classics.

Thankyou, Shoeshine. Didn't you realise? All my postings are classics.

I know, but sometimes you use big words..........:hihi:

Timo - where's your classic Sig mate?

Timo - where's your classic Sig mate?

He's joined the Secret Seven Club on CeeBeebies..

He's joined the Secret Seven Club on CeeBeebies..
:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: my laptop is covered in little tiny spats of water now!

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:
Exactly!
Why do so many lads think that earrings and jewellery look good. I think it looks effeminate. And tattooes, why spoil the perfection of what God gave you?

I admit to having a multitude of hairstyles and even bleaching my hair from time to time,

.. in fact I sometimes wear my girlfriend's knickers because they fit quite well, and it would be a crime not to wear the matching bra. There's nothing wrong with working in a florist either, I was only the driver but I got quite adept at improving what the new girl had done with one of the standard boquets.

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: my laptop is covered in little tiny spats of water now!

Tomorrow he's at the Beeb, auditioning the part for The Newsreader in The Pickwick Papers.....................

You sound a sexy little beast, Muddycoffee...

I'm a lumberjack & I'm allright :thumbsup:

You sound a sexy little beast, Muddycoffee...

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: everything is funny tonight ...or am I just hyper

This post is purely so you can see what I look like.

Muddy Café (http://www.rocknroll.f9.co.uk/fromwithin/french.jpg)
As you see here I am wearing my Beret

This post is purely so you can see what I look like.

Muddy Café (http://www.rocknroll.f9.co.uk/fromwithin/french.jpg)
As you see here I am wearing my Beret

'allo 'allo.........nightmares for me tonight now..............

'allo 'allo.........nightmares for me tonight now..............

Yeah my middle name is Johnny, Onion Johnny !

one minute we're being told to be more caring, show our sensitive side, take better care in our appearance, the next we're being told to be more butch and act like vikings................bah, women, can't make their minds up:hihi:

in all seriousness, us men, like all humans, should be ourselves and not put on an act

Dan,
Real men make up their womens' minds for them. Er, if their wives say it is ok to do so, like. Sorry. Please don't hit me dear. Shriek etc.

one minute we're being told to be more caring, show our sensitive side, take better care in our appearance, the next we're being told to be more butch and act like vikings................bah, women, can't make their minds up:hihi:

yeah.
Balls to women, whay not go out with men instead! :cool:

yeah.
Balls to women, whay not go out with men instead! :cool:

Because women put up with onion breath for longer before complaining :)

Because women put up with onion breath for longer before complaining :)
Yeah but men on average can put up with more fart smells!

Yeah but men on average can put up with more fart smells!

You are speaking for yourself I hope..........

It's all in good fun Muddy...don't take offence please....

Because women put up with onion breath for longer before complaining :)

And here speaks the voice of reason.... or experience should I say. :D

Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

I don't think he would have minded to much ,after all his real name was "Marion Morrison "

Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

"Why do I have to have another guy put his hand on my ass to get rich"? :)

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

Awwww pattricia, I just loved John Wayne. I saw True Grit at the Drive In when I was nine. I fell in love with that movie and wanted to be Mattie Ross, who unlike me wasn't afraid of anything.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065126/

I still like the end of True Grit when John Wayne faces down the four bad guys and tells them they're under arrest.

Ned Pepper, one of the villians says, "that's some mighty bold talk for a one eyed fat man".

The Duke hollers, "fill yore hand you son-of-a-b*tch!"

I don't remember where I heard the following story, and who knows if it's even true, but it still made me smile.

John Wayne was a guest on The Loretta Young Show. Loretta Young was a notorious goody two shoes and all around pain in the neck.

Although, maybe she wasn't too good. There were rumors for years that she had an out of wedlock child with Clark Gable. I know. Scandalous. But this was the 1930's.

http://www.geocities.com/cactus_st/article/article18.html

Supposedly, Loretta Young hated bad language, and kept a small jar on the set. If anyone let loose with a curse word, they had to put some money in the jar. The contents were later donated to one of Loretta's favorite charities.

During rehearsals, John Wayne fluffed a line and said some mild cuss word. Loretta immediately sprang up and waved the jar under his nose, demanding that he pay up. Wayne took out a few bills and said, Here's twenty bucks". "Eff off Loretta".

No one there dared to laugh because no one wanted to be on the unemployment line, but I could totally picture John Wayne doing something like that.

:) Sierra

Do you know there's a term for it as well ?
It's called 'Met-ro-sex-ual' men. You may laugh....you may giggle..but it's true. I think I came across this on some internet site. Pfff...

I don't mind if blokes are in touch of their feminine side and cry like a baby. Like Gazza did. (Ok, ok, it's football...t's worth the tears....) But, I don't think that I can date a bloke who's more pampered and groomed than I am ! >.< That's just SO wrong.

A real man in my eyes is someone who tells the truth.... will stick by their kin and friends through thick and thin....doesn't judge lightly.... accepts responsibility for their own actions and can admit when they are wrong.

I don't disagree with that. I would say that such a guy has integrity. Also, a real man would know his limitation and not BS. :thumbsup:

Do you know there's a term for it as well ?
It's called 'Met-ro-sex-ual' men. You may laugh....you may giggle..but it's true. I think I came across this on some internet site. Pfff...

I don't mind if blokes are in touch of their feminine side and cry like a baby. Like Gazza did. (Ok, ok, it's football...t's worth the tears....) But, I don't think that I can date a bloke who's more pampered and groomed than I am ! >.< That's just SO wrong.



I don't disagree with that. I would say that such a guy has integrity. Also, a real man would know his limitation and not BS. :thumbsup:

What is BS?.... do you mean bi sexual? now that is something I strongly disagree with.... you should be one or the other.... bisexuality is a bit like having the cake and eating it. :thumbsup:

What is BS?.... do you mean bi sexual? now that is something I strongly disagree with.... you should be one or the other.... bisexuality is a bit like having the cake and eating it. :thumbsup:

Isnt it more like being greedy and going for a second slice of cake, when you know there is only enough for one each :confused:

hmm, fond memories of special occassions with the family :help:

Isnt it more like being greedy and going for a second slice of cake, when you know there is only enough for one each :confused:

hmm, fond memories of special occassions with the family :help:

I can help you know..... failing that redrobbo is a wisdom of light.... I do have good contacts in social services.... :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :thumbsup:

Isnt it more like being greedy and going for a second slice of cake, when you know there is only enough for one each :confused:

hmm, fond memories of special occassions with the family :help:
Bisexual, incestuous... blimey - where's the News of The World Reporter when you need one? :hihi:

one minute we're being told to be more caring, show our sensitive side, take better care in our appearance, the next we're being told to be more butch and act like vikings................bah, women, can't make their minds up:hihi:



True, the reason guys are becoming a touch more feminine is because of women. Many women want to stop the guy being the guy and mould him how she wants and away from the typical bloke look and football/beer act. Once a women then achieves her goal then she tires of him and wants a real man, then the next mug comes in for the vivious circle. :hihi:

If you find any good men out there please let me know. I have not met one yet

Here I am :D

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

national service. When was that abolished, 30 years ago or something?

Cyclone,
National Service was abolished [I think] around 1959/60.

True, the reason guys are becoming a touch more feminine is because of women. Many women want to stop the guy being the guy and mould him how she wants and away from the typical bloke look and football/beer act. Once a women then achieves her goal then she tires of him and wants a real man, then the next mug comes in for the vivious circle. :hihi:

Lots of the guys I see out in town are young, wearing make up and earrings, dyed hair, having a good time, don't seem to have a woman in tow? I think these are the guys patricia was referring to.

Perhaps some men just like to be like that?

Cyclone,
National Service was abolished [I think] around 1959/60.


So if that was the root cause of the 'lack of real men', we'd have been noticing it back in the 80's and 90's. By now, any 'real men' would be nearly 50.

I'd suggest that something else is the root cause, if there really is a lack of these men.

Personally, I have never worn makeup, I don't have a tatoo and I definitely don't have any piercings. The only products I use are hair wax and aftershave.
Does that make me a 'real man'? Checking quickly I can confirm that I do fulfill the requirements for being male :hihi: .

I can help you know..... failing that redrobbo is a wisdom of light.... I do have good contacts in social services.... :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :thumbsup:

Bisexual, incestuous... blimey - where's the News of The World Reporter when you need one? :hihi:

I was talking about the actuall cake, lol :|

I personally like my boyfriend's feminine side, I love when he wears make up!
We often exchange clothes and I really enjoy when I have the chance to dye his hair :love:

I personally like my boyfriend's feminine side, I love when he wears make up!
We often exchange clothes and I really enjoy when I have the chance to dye his hair :love:

Why does your boyfriend wear make up? and are your clothes really his style or is this some kinky stuff :huh:

Why is it so often assumed that any 'gentle' characteristics a man demonstrates is a case of him connecting with his 'feminine side'? Unlike my sardonic, robust self, my dear late father was a gentle type. There was not the slightest hint of femininity about him. Quite the contrary. The splendid cove simply behaved like a true gentleman to all, empathically considering the impact his behaviour would have upon others. He exercised restraint where necessary, preferring to admonish with words rather than blows. He eschewed extreme positions, viewing them as almost always the wrong ones. Rather than fight a man, he would prefer to sit down and reason with him. Are these examples of a 'feminine side', or rather examples of mild, mature male qualities?

I think that the cul-de-sac of "feminine" men which this thread has driven down is a bit of a misnomer, from scanning through the posts I think that the real man so desperately sought after is just a true gent. Granted, guys like John Wayne et al may be the physical specimen of a real man but the deed outweighs the image.

Men as a majority have been through a variety of stages: Gentlemen ~ Beer swilling football officianados ~ Lads ~ Metrosexuals. The pendulum must swing back to its starting point.

I for one would like to see a return of the gentleman, one who upholds values and morality, holds good manners dear and treats others with condiseration and respect. If it were up to me all us chaps would still be wearing hats so we could doff them jauntily at pretty ladies!

Timo, I echo and endorse your post whole heartedly.

Why does your boyfriend wear make up?

Just beacuse he likes it and he looks good with make-up on :)

and are your clothes really his style or is this some kinky stuff :huh:

He borrows my clothes sometime and I borrow his, especially t-shirts or jeans, is not any sort of kinky stuff...we will be fighting tonight on who gets to wear the black furry cape that we bought :D

Rather than fight a man, he would prefer to sit down and reason with him. Are these examples of a 'feminine side', or rather examples of mild, mature male qualities ?

It depends on the situation, no ? Yes, there is a flight Vs fight mentality in all of us. If a guy is able to make a good judgment call, I would say he is a fine gentleman indeed.

Gentlemen ~ Beer swilling football officianados ~ Lads ~ Metrosexuals. The pendulum must swing back to its starting point.

Sorry if I'm gonna be brutally honest now. This is my personal opinion only. Others may disagree.

I would say a gentleman is somewhere between these two. Why ? I'm sure that there's a culture especially in Yorkshire that only a man drinks a real pint. But, I think in this day and age where everybody has to look after his own health. Drinking moderately is a sign of independence and good judgement. i.e. the man is in control of his own health. :thumbsup:

Good example is that thread about gay looking men.... :D
http://www.myscifi.co.uk/bored.html

Most ppl voted for No. 1. Because he is more rugged, and more manly looking than the rest. That is why. Though I've no doubt that he is a tad groomed as well, but is not as polished looking at the other 2 below him.

True, the reason guys are becoming a touch more feminine is because of women. Many women want to stop the guy being the guy and mould him how she wants and away from the typical bloke look and football/beer act. Once a women then achieves her goal then she tires of him and wants a real man, then the next mug comes in for the vivious circle. :hihi:

I suspect there is more than a bit of truth in this.....

I really feel sorry for blokes sometimes - they're told to tone the masculinity down, then they're told they're too feminine, then they're told to be metrosexual, then they're told they're too wimpish..... Just be yourself, I guess?

Admittedly, the John Wayne type does appeal to the side of a woman that wants to be cherished and taken care of and treated like a lady, etc - which sounds nice on the surface, but unfortunately often seems to go along with a lack of real respect for women, and a very patronising attitude. 'The big man knows best - little woman do what she's told' sort of thing. Most woman today are simply not going to put up with that sort of rubbish!

StarSparkle

Starsparkle,
You have a point there regarding 'the Big Man' approach. Confidence in traditional masculinity is one thing, but as you so correctly suggest, women do not have to endure conceited fools who think themselves 'the Boss' in any relationship. In my experience, such men are rapidly disabused of their delusions, 'ditched' and left to drown their sorrows with equally bigoted fellow creatures by today's generally confident, educated women.

Isnt it more like being greedy and going for a second slice of cake, when you know there is only enough for one each :confused:

hmm, fond memories of special occassions with the family :help:

greedy?! it's about fancying who you happen to fancy. If there are gays and lesbians and straights then somewhere along the line there has to be something in between!!

Why does your boyfriend wear make up? and are your clothes really his style or is this some kinky stuff :huh:

Men in make-up *drool*

Men in make-up *drool*

:| I thought you prefered your men more masculine. Didn't you use to date a cadet or still do.

:| I thought you prefered your men more masculine. Didn't you use to date a cadet or still do.

Being a Cadet doesn't make someone masculine...

Yes I have dated an RAF Cadet... men in uniform... *drool*

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:


Maybe today's men don't have the scriptwriters those lot had? I think perhaps easier to act a "real" man than to be a man in the real world.

Being a Cadet doesn't make someone masculine...

Yes I have dated an RAF Cadet... men in uniform... *drool*

I know, I just know people in the cadets and most of them are not that feminine, lol. Is there anything that doesn't make you drool? :P

I know, I just know people in the cadets and most of them are not that feminine, lol. Is there anything that doesn't make you drool? :P

Yes.. but it would be mean to say it here.

Yes.. but it would be mean to say it here.

:| Thats harsh, lol. I hope I made you drool at one point :huh:

Thankyou, Shoeshine. Didn't you realise? All my postings are classics.
They surely are Timo. You should write a book.What observations ! Glad there are some REAL men around at last.Its O.K. Im happily married too.My husband looks actually like Ray Winstone,and has the voice to match.Maybe Ive been spoilt,but I cant stand all these prancing, pouting bleached young things ,with piercings etc; :thumbsup:

I am a bit concerned to read that my name has been mentioned in connection with these four consecutive posts.....

What is BS?.... do you mean bi sexual? now that is something I strongly disagree with.... you should be one or the other.... bisexuality is a bit like having the cake and eating it. :thumbsup:


Isnt it more like being greedy and going for a second slice of cake, when you know there is only enough for one each :confused:

hmm, fond memories of special occassions with the family :help:


I can help you know..... failing that redrobbo is a wisdom of light.... I do have good contacts in social services.... :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :thumbsup:

I was talking about the actuall cake, lol :|

I'm not exactly sure what the point is that Jake01 is making in his conclusive post. However, whatever the reason Jake01 chose to mention my name in the context of a discussion of bi-sexuality, (and for whatever reason Jimbob1989 chose to quote that post by Jake01 in his last reply), this discussion is tantamount to speculation about my sexuality, and amounts to an unwarranted intrusion into my private life.

A lot of forummers will be aware that I have never hidden the fact from anyone that I am gay. Forummers, including Jake01, are also aware that both my son and partner are members of this forum. I see no reason why they, myself, or anyone else for that matter, should read such speculative posts concerning my sexual identity.

As these posts have now been on open view since midday today, I will not, in the circumstances, ask the Mods to remove them. However, I am requesting that Jake01, Jimbob1989 (and anyone else) desist from discussing my sexual identity and to respect my privacy. I shall send PMs to both forummers drawing my request to their attention.

My appologies, I was not talking about yourself, I wasn't actually sure who or what redrobbo was when I read that post, and I have nothing against people of different sexualities. I have dated bisexual women and have a few gay mates.

Mod. Note

Just to follow up from Redrobbo, here.

If anything inappropriate IS posted, the posts will be removed and, if necessary, the poster of such comments will find themselves on a short Forum holiday.

Thanks,

Joe

I am a bit concerned to read that my name has been mentioned in connection with these four consecutive posts.....

I'm not exactly sure what the point is that Jake01 is making in his conclusive post. However, whatever the reason Jake01 chose to mention my name in the context of a discussion of bi-sexuality, (and for whatever reason Jimbob1989 chose to quote that post by Jake01 in his last reply), this discussion is tantamount to speculation about my sexuality, and amounts to an unwarranted intrusion into my private life.

A lot of forummers will be aware that I have never hidden the fact from anyone that I am gay. Forummers, including Jake01, are also aware that both my son and partner are members of this forum. I see no reason why they, myself, or anyone else for that matter, should read such speculative posts concerning my sexual identity.

As these posts have now been on open view since midday today, I will not, in the circumstances, ask the Mods to remove them. However, I am requesting that Jake01, Jimbob1989 (and anyone else) desist from discussing my sexual identity and to respect my privacy. I shall send PMs to both forummers drawing my request to their attention.

Very sorry Robbo...... I was merely pointing the poster in your direction for a bit of good advice.... you have given me that service in the past. As for sexuality.... I had no idea.... and certainly have no problem with it, I still think you are one of the most decent fellas I have had the fortune to meet.... I also didn't know your family are forum members or even who they are.

I am sorry if you think this was a deliberate ploy.... I really didn't know but now I do means I respect you even more.... I think you are a great guy and you have much to give.... so keep on giving my friend. :thumbsup:

I think it's my fault for starting the ball rolling on this one.
BS = Bull shXt. Yes, I added that in cos my last ex, I felt was kind of BS me. So no... in that sense, I didn't class him as a 'real man'. It's nothing to do with sexual orientations or whatever in this instance.

I do apologise if I have indirectly caused offense in this instance.

Jake,
This is really proving to be your week, isn't it? You have already had to make a public apology to me [for which you are forgiven], and now you seem intent upon upsetting Red Robbo. Are you intent upon making yourself deeply unpopular? What is behind all this ?

OK, I'm goin to give a view I have here and some might not like it, but I want to say it :| the thread had gone pretty much away from the discussion of himself, untill redrobbo made his very strong post, but yeah, myself and Jake appologised for if we had caused offense and it was over. Timo, you talk about causing arguments, but was your post really needed here? do that many people giving a flying **** if you have forgiven him over whatever argument?

I suggest we calm down and goes back to the original topic, before this thread turns into a huge argument over who is right and who is wrong and gets locked.

It has already been said that it was not Jake01's intention to upset or offend anyone with that post.

Jake,
This is really proving to be your week, isn't it? You have already had to make a public apology to me [for which you are forgiven], and now you seem intent upon upsetting Red Robbo. Are you intent upon making yourself deeply unpopular? What is behind all this ?

I made a mistake with you timo and I admitted it..... this however goes beyond me.... you might well have found yourself in the same position here just out of a mere post.... as I think I did.

I would never want to upset Red Robbo as if the truth be known I think I am half the man of He.

I suggest you mind your own damned business, Jimbob. Less of the foul mouthed 'Big Man' talk too.

I suggest you mind your own damned business, Jimbob. Less of the foul mouthed 'Big Man' talk too.

:| Who's trying to be the 'Big Man' I suggested everyone calmed down, went back to the topic and didn't start dragging stuff up. Am I in the wrong for that? :rolleyes: what a joke.

Your both grown men, you can sort your problems in private, instead of bringing them to the playground for everyone to see.

Alright so maybe a few tempers have been raised. I don't think it is quite appropriate to make this argument here and believe there is a time and a place. Perhaps all who have been upset go and calm down instead of having a go. If you are going to publicly make a jibe at someone you can expect to get comments.

Why carry on with it? Just everyone calm down..

Jimbob,
I agree that this is a silly situation. However, I don't respond well to phrases like 'who gives a flying f***'. Nevertheless, lets all cool down as you suggest

Jimbob,
I agree that this is a silly situation. However, I don't respond well to phrases like 'who gives a flying f***'. Nevertheless, lets all cool down as you suggest

Sorry, bad habbit of saying what I think :)

Alright so maybe a few tempers have been raised. I don't think it is quite appropriate to make this argument here and believe there is a time and a place. Perhaps all who have been upset go and calm down instead of having a go. If you are going to publicly make a jibe at someone you can expect to get comments.

Why carry on with it? Just everyone calm down..

And there lies the true voice of wisdom Ladies and Gentlemen and one I truly back. :thumbsup:

My appologies...

Thank you for your apology Jimbob1989, and for your PMs, to which I have replied.

I think it's my fault for starting the ball rolling on this one.
BS = Bull shXt. Yes, I added that in cos my last ex, I felt was kind of BS me. So no... in that sense, I didn't class him as a 'real man'. It's nothing to do with sexual orientations or whatever in this instance.

I do apologise if I have indirectly caused offense in this instance.

No apology required Bago. Thank you too for your PM, to which I have also replied.

Very sorry Robbo...... I was merely pointing the poster in your direction for a bit of good advice.... you have given me that service in the past. As for sexuality.... I had no idea.... and certainly have no problem with it, I still think you are one of the most decent fellas I have had the fortune to meet.... I also didn't know your family are forum members or even who they are.

I am sorry if you think this was a deliberate ploy.... I really didn't know but now I do means I respect you even more.... I think you are a great guy and you have much to give.... so keep on giving my friend. :thumbsup:

Thank you for saying sorry Jake01, and for your PM, to which I am about to reply.

I would now like this to be the end of this matter, and for the posts on this thread to return to the subject under dicussion.

Red

To return to the subject of "real" men, the apparent scarcity of which was originally bemoaned by Pattricia...

Whenever the subject of 'male masculinity' crops up, I'm mindful of the fact that many millions, myself among them, were fooled for years by the media about the true sexuality of personalities that we firmly believed that we "knew"... Most strikingly in my case, by Rock Hudson, Raymond Burr (Ironsides) and for those of us with even longer memories, 'Professor' Jimmy Edwards.

At one time, if a pal fancied themselves as a 'ladies man' and was boastful about it, the standard put-down was "Who do you think you are? Rock Hudson!"... Meaning that they could never hope to aspire to be such a ruggedly-handsome, female-magnet as he.

Now I don't criticise the aforementioned for their sexual inclination, nor do I condemn them for hiding the fact, it was surely prudent for them to do so, particularly in that era. I do, however, resent being fooled by the media so completely!

All of which brings me to to the point I wish to make... Namely that outward appearances and public conduct are not necessarily a true indication of the person within... Moreover, the qualifying characteristics of a "real" man means different things to different people... luckily for the males of the species! ;)

Thanks for getting this back on track, pseudonym.

Had I seen the latter group of posts last night, I'd have taken my banning boots out for a while, but hopefully we can move along now.

FWIW, my own feelings about 'real men' are that they take duty to and responsibility for themselves and their family very seriously. They may drop the ball, but they'll admit to it. They'll look for the beam in their own eye before pointing out the mote in someone else's.

They'll help others become all they can be, and also strive to better tehmselves.

They may be generous, but their humility allows them to keep that a secret to themselves and their God.

They will have some sort of spiritual belief. They may not be physically strong but they'll have strength of character and determination.

I don't think looks, sexuality or material possessions come in to it at all.

I think my childhood impressions of what constituted a real man was based very much on film and TV - Humphrey Bogart in 'Casablanca', John Wayne in 'True Grit', Robert Mitchum in 'El Dorado', the Horst Bucholz, Charles Bronson and Robert Vaughn characters in 'The Magnificent Seven'.

Joe

Lots of the guys I see out in town are young, wearing make up and earrings, dyed hair, having a good time, don't seem to have a woman in tow? I think these are the guys patricia was referring to.

Perhaps some men just like to be like that?

Where do you live, San Francisco in the 1980's ?

I think its all because of the "cool to be camp" factor, and lets not forget the ammount of students, with their wackey hairdoos, and tight tops.
I think its also todo with all of these trisha shows and the like, that encourage men to show their feminine side. In order to attract a partner.
MALE OR FEMALE :o

They will have some sort of spiritual belief

You really think that that is something required to be a 'real man' Joe?

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

That is quite some generalisation Patricia, but it is right by some considerable extent, as it has got more so ever since the law was changed making perversion legal.

It is now socially acceptable to "come out" and to be proud of it, therefore all the low life are crawling out from under the stones and the decent and "strong men" are slowly but surely being outnumbered.

As a member of the "old school" men didn't use perfume, lipstick and wear outrageous clothes and flirt their sexuality, they were "real men", strong and independent, tough and masculine, "not poofters" like a lot now.

I suppose, I shall get some stick for this post, but I do agree with you Pat. and when I look around at some specimens today, I could literally vomit.

We got bored of English girls constantly asking "Where have all the real/nice/good/intelligent/muscular/skinny/romantic/insert whatever here men gone?", when we've actually been standing right in front of you all along but you've been ignoring us in favour of "bad boys". We also got bored of hearing "All men are b******s", and "why do I always get bad boys" etcetera, etcetera...

You didn't appreciate what you had, so we emegrated.

Simple. :P

That is quite some generalisation Patricia, but it is right by some considerable extent, as it has got more so ever since the law was changed making perversion legal.

It is now socially acceptable to "come out" and to be proud of it, therefore all the low life are crawling out from under the stones and the decent and "strong men" are slowly but surely being outnumbered.

I suppose, I shall get some stick for this post, but I do agree with you Pat. and when I look around at some specimens today, I could literally vomit.

I read that and I could quite literally vomit.

The fact that you seem to think the world is being taken over by poofs is very ammusing though.

Look out, theres one behind you !

That is quite some generalisation Patricia, but it is right by some considerable extent, as it has got more so ever since the law was changed making perversion legal.

It is now socially acceptable to "come out" and to be proud of it, therefore all the low life are crawling out from under the stones and the decent and "strong men" are slowly but surely being outnumbered.

As a member of the "old school" men didn't use perfume, lipstick and wear outrageous clothes and flirt their sexuality, they were "real men", strong and independent, tough and masculine, "not poofters" like a lot now.

I suppose, I shall get some stick for this post, but I do agree with you Pat. and when I look around at some specimens today, I could literally vomit.

Welome back to the forum halevan. Your rantings have been noticeably absent for some time.

It is because of views such as you hold that long ago I openly and honestly declared my sexuality as a gay man, or in your ignorant parlance a "poofter" and "low life". Indeed, I am out, and I am proud. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

As vomit on the streets is disgusting, may I suggest that you make sure you always carry a sick bag with you. You never know if our paths might cross, and then you'll certainly need it, won't you?

That is quite some generalisation Patricia, but it is right by some considerable extent, as it has got more so ever since the law was changed making perversion legal.

It is now socially acceptable to "come out" and to be proud of it, therefore all the low life are crawling out from under the stones and the decent and "strong men" are slowly but surely being outnumbered.

As a member of the "old school" men didn't use perfume, lipstick and wear outrageous clothes and flirt their sexuality, they were "real men", strong and independent, tough and masculine, "not poofters" like a lot now.

I suppose, I shall get some stick for this post, but I do agree with you Pat. and when I look around at some specimens today, I could literally vomit.
Where to start with such a combination of misconception, ignorance and prejudice? Or maybe you just protest too much?

I'm particularly amazed at how you portray strength, independence and toughness as the antithesis of those who choose to 'come out'. What better qualities could there be to describe those who admit their true sexuality in a world where attitudes like yours are still prevalent?

Dear God, do people still use the word 'poofter'? Amazing. We should preseve you in formaldehyde; you might very well be one of the last surviving members of a dwindling species: Homo obsoletus.

That is quite some generalisation Patricia, but it is right by some considerable extent, as it has got more so ever since the law was changed making perversion legal.

It is now socially acceptable to "come out" and to be proud of it, therefore all the low life are crawling out from under the stones and the decent and "strong men" are slowly but surely being outnumbered.

As a member of the "old school" men didn't use perfume, lipstick and wear outrageous clothes and flirt their sexuality, they were "real men", strong and independent, tough and masculine, "not poofters" like a lot now.

I suppose, I shall get some stick for this post, but I do agree with you Pat. and when I look around at some specimens today, I could literally vomit.

I'de have to agree.:thumbsup:
There was apparently an article that its the DNA?
never read so much garbage.:loopy:
"come out and to be proud" what's that about?:huh:

I do not know where these alleged "real men" have gone? :huh:

But I don't care. I've reverted back to being interested in lovely boys. :love:

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=955394&postcount=8

I'de have to agree.:thumbsup:
There was apparently an article that its the DNA?
never read so much garbage.:loopy:
Oooh, a reasoned opinion from someone who clearly understands genetics :rolleyes: . Post a link to the article in question and maybe someone will explain it to you.
"come out and to be proud" what's that about?:huh:
Well, I would suggest that there's a good possibility that it's about coming out, and being proud.

Being a Cadet doesn't make someone masculine...

Yes I have dated an RAF Cadet... men in uniform... *drool*

Hehe you sound like me poppet..

Man with a pulse....*drool*

Oooh, a reasoned opinion from someone who clearly understands genetics :rolleyes: . Post a link to the article in question and maybe someone will explain it to you.

Well, I would suggest that there's a good possibility that it's about coming out, and being proud.

i'de rather not go looking for gay articles on the net thanx.
try google yourself.

i'de rather not go looking for gay articles on the net thanx.


I don't think you can catch it from the internet.

I don't think you can catch it from the internet.

better to be safe than sorry............

i'de rather not go looking for gay articles on the net thanx.
try google yourself.
I see. So you haven't even read the article in question. Better and better.

better to be safe than sorry............
Troll. Do you have anything useful to contribute to this thread?

I wouldn't waste your breath ppn, I doubt that you can explain the genetics paper in small enough words for them.

Troll. Do you have anything useful to contribute to this thread?
I know enough that sequencing of the amino acids in a helix has bears outcome to determine sexuality?

I know enough that sequencing of the amino acids in a helix has no outcome to determine sexuality?

so you chose to be straight ?

so you chose to be straight ?
didnt choose i just am.

didnt choose i just am.

so it's genetic then, down to your DNA ?

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

In the main it's you girls that got rid of them, it started in the 60's and got progressively worse. You wanted men that you could associate with and smoothed them down to suit you. Now that heavy industrial jobs are a thing of the past most blokes do the same jobs as women, they don't develop big muscles and are so used to being with women they have started to talk like them.

Don't grumble about your own work, you made them so you live with with them.

so it's genetic then, down to your DNA ?
did i not just mention i think that theory is garbage.

did i not just mention i think that theory is garbage.

well, you either choose your sexuality (or it's forced on you by "society") or it's genetic, what other option is there ?

As you said you didn't choose your sexuality you must agree that it's down to your genetics, and if you had no choice but to be straight doesn't it follow that other people had no choice but to be gay ?

People didn't choose to be gay any more than you chose to be straight, like you said, they "just are".

well, you either choose your sexuality (or it's forced on you by "society") or it's genetic, what other option is there ?

As you said you didn't choose your sexuality you must agree that it's down to your genetics, and if you had no choice but to be straight doesn't it follow that other people had no choice but to be gay ?

People didn't choose to be gay any more than you chose to be straight, like you said, they "just are".
would your above explanation apply to other forms of perversion
eg. paedophilia
necrophilia
so on so on......?

would your above explanation apply to other forms of perversion
eg. paedophilia
necrophilia
so on so on......?

Well, no I don't think so, because you can get straight or gay paedophiles, so unless all paedophiles were gay or straight it can't realy be down to genetics.

A mate of mine turned gay after he repeatedly slept with other men!!

We told him "You want to watch out, you'll turn if you keep sleeping with other lads!" Would he listen? No. Now he's a homosexual gay.

You may not be able to catch it of the internet but he caught it from shagging other blokes :hihi:

You talk about 'perversions' as though they are some immutable law of the universe instead of something defined by us.

A perversion is just something that isn't considered to be normal by the majority of the population.
By that definition being gay doesn't qualify anyway.

The other things you try to bring into the argument are also defined as crimes by society, which is a poor attempt to associate criminal behaviour with not being hetrosexual.

Why does it bother you so much, I doubt you're so attractive that you need to worry about a gay man making pass at you.
Isn't it generally the case that the most homophobic are overcompensating for something?

Isn't it generally the case that the most homophobic are overcompensating for something?

wouldn't know!
Is this through personal experience?:thumbsup:

I know enough that sequencing of the amino acids in a helix has bears outcome to determine sexuality?
Really? Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Do try to get your terminology correct if you're going to discuss this in a scientific context.

Being gay or being straight isn't a conscious decision; it just is. Some argue for genetic determination. Others suggest the influence of environmental factors. Maybe it's a bit of both. Maybe we all have a little bit of DNA which encodes a genetic predisposition to be gay, but it's only expressed in certain individuals?

Ultimately though, what does it matter? It's just a fact of life that some people are gay and some are straight. What's the problem?

Really? Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Do try to get your terminology correct if you're going to discuss this in a scientific context.

Being gay or being straight isn't a conscious decision; it just is. Some argue for genetic determination. Others suggest the influence of environmental factors. Maybe it's a bit of both. Maybe we all have a little bit of DNA which encodes a genetic predisposition to be gay, but it's only expressed in certain individuals?

Ultimately though, what does it matter? It's just a fact of life that some people are gay and some are straight. What's the problem?

your right it is amino acids are to do with proteins and wotnot!
DNA to do with the 23 pairings of chromosomes! school seems such a distant memory......
theory still a loada bull though!

You're so smart, maybe you can explain it then.
If it's not a choice and it's not genetic. What is it?

Is there any other mammal on the planet that does this?

If it's not a choice and it's not genetic. What is it?

gay pixie dust sprinkled on unsuspecting straight blokes during the night which turns them gay ?

Is there any other mammal on the planet that does this?

Actually Bonobo monkeys mate with either male or female Bonobos, it's more of a social activity than a sexuality choice but they still do it and enjoy it. So much so it's considered the norm.

Homosexuality is widespread throughout the animal kingdom. If memory serves there is an exhibit in a Dutch museum which chronicles the first recorded incident of homosexual necrophillia between ducks. The mind boggles eh?

There is some evidence from behavioural genetics for male homosexuality. Dean Hamer and colleagues identified the candidate region 'xq28' on the tip of some mens' x chromosomes as a possible causal variable. However, the evidence is not conclusive.
As ppn suggested previously, genes and environment can both play a part. I prefer to think in terms of 'nature via nurture' rather than nature opposed to nurture. Genes, for example, can 'take their cue' from nature, and can be 'switched on' by certain environmental stimuli [such as stress].

Swan Vesta mentions Bonobo Chimps. It is claimed that they are the only species, aside from the evolved African ape called Homo Sapiens, to engage in recreational sexual congress. That may be the case, and like Homo Sapiens they also engage in rape. Perhaps science will make some startling discoveries in the future. One images Orang Utang bisexualists, Octopuses gang-sodomising on the seabed and Bison who are not gay but will 'help out in a rush', in modern parlance.

There is some evidence from behavioural genetics for male homosexuality. Dean Hamer and colleagues identified the candidate region 'xq28' on the tip of some mens' Y chromosomes as a possible causal variable. However, the evidence is not conclusive. As ppn suggested previously, genes and environment can both play a part. I prefer to think in terms of 'nature via nurture' rather than nature opposed to nurture. Genes, for example, can 'take their cue' from nature, and can be 'switched on' by certain environmental stimuli [such as stress].... The region in question is actually on the X chromosome. The suggestion was made at the time that women 'carry' this region, enabling it to be passed on to their sons. I recall that the study was big news in the mid-90s, though I don't think anyone ever managed to replicate it.

oh dear, here we go again, these threads pop up every few months, I feel someone has a issue about gay people, these type of threads always end up this way.

This comment sum s everything :

Posted by ppn_2204
Ultimately though, what does it matter? It's just a fact of life that some people are gay and some are straight. What's the problem?

I am sorry to say, you don`t "turn gay" I didn`t turn gay, I have always been gay, and proud of it, work colleagues know, friends know, and they dont have a problem with it, so 4U2NV --> what is your problem ?, you have failed to answer this question haven`t you.

I don`t normally bother with these nonsense threads, but had to have my say.

Is it just me,but are our young men becoming more feminised ? Maybe its the demise of National Service,Im not sure,but when I look around me,all I see are prancing,pouting, tatooed, peroxided, earing studded high pitched voiced mummys boys. Where are all the Robert Mitchums, Humphrey Bogarts and Marlon Brandos ? Makes me wonder what the great John Wayne would have thought of "Brokeback Mountain ":huh: :huh:

You lasses! I wish you'd make up your bloody minds!!

First you want somebody caring who listens to what you say and 'understands' you better - and now thats gone out of the window and you want a neanderthal 'real man' on your arm who treats you like ****e but is a 'real man'

Make your minds up- which do you want :hihi:

Angelus,
I do believe, dear heart, that you are venturing to suggest that women want 'both bites of the cherry'. You are indeed a brave cove.

You lasses! I wish you'd make up your bloody minds!!

First you want somebody caring who listens to what you say and 'understands' you better - and now thats gone out of the window and you want a neanderthal 'real man' on your arm who treats you like ****e but is a 'real man'

Make your minds up- which do you want :hihi:

Well that's just silly.

As if I, one woman, can account for the ridiculous actions of half of the world's population. :rolleyes:

Perhaps that's where you're going wrong, thinking of us as 'lasses', instead of individuals.

As the person starting this thread may I insist that it is not about gays.I admire and respect all gays,I have had the priviledge of working with gay, male nurses, and believe me they are fantastic.It is about straight guys who act like gays,because its the latest thing to do.:thumbsup:

As the person starting this thread may I insist that it is not about gays.I admire and respect all gays,I have had the priviledge of working with gay, male nurses, and believe me they are fantastic.It is about straight guys who act like gays,because its the latest thing to do.:thumbsup:

Aahh, in that case, pattricia, it's all down to being metrosexual these days. Come on now, you and me have just got to keep up with the times you know! :rolleyes:

Angelus,
I do believe, dear heart, that you are venturing to suggest that women want 'both bites of the cherry'. You are indeed a brave cove.

I thank you :)
Brave or what eh!! :thumbsup:

Well that's just silly.

As if I, one woman, can account for the ridiculous actions of half of the world's population. :rolleyes:

Perhaps that's where you're going wrong, thinking of us as 'lasses', instead of individuals.

No one lady can account for the rest of the female population, that is very true but after hearing a lot of women on here and also out in the real world bitch about how crap their 'male' companion is treating them and how they dont listen to them and they wish that they could have someone who would treat them better... I find it downright idiotic when someone comes up with the notion that they dont want a 'new' man - they want to go back to the dark ages when a man was - and I quote - 'a real man' ie: Caveman, Yob, someone who treats women like ****e.

And I am sorry if I am ranting about this - but what do women class a 'real man' to be - because I for one would be very interested to know what the female populous of the Sheffield Forum would like their real man to be.

I can guess already what is coming but I'd like to know for my own personal benefit.

Perhaps that's where you're going wrong, thinking of us as 'lasses', instead of individuals

Probably not as I have a very happy fiancee at home who gets treated like a queen.. so I kind of already know how to treat a woman like an 'individual' already - but thanks :)

angelus, I don't think any of the females posting in this thread have said they want a guy who treats them badly. You are confusing two different aspects of men.
Although I'm still not sure hot the 'real' aspect is really defined.

Actually Bonobo monkeys mate with either male or female Bonobos, it's more of a social activity than a sexuality choice but they still do it and enjoy it. So much so it's considered the norm.


Eeek, this brings back memories... a couple of friends and myself were put on bonobo watching duty on a Uni zoo trip once. Never have I been so educated in 10 minutes before... I think they were putting on a show for us specially!

Maybe the term 'real men' is a bit of a misnomer in this discussion. I mean, all men are real. That's the logic. Though on the planet VENUS. I totally get where the OP is coming from. It's the type of guys who just act like a kid, which doesn't necessarily bring out the feminine side of you. It just makes you think they're childish, and your maternal instincts kicks in. Then the dynamic of any possible relationship just fizzles out.

I think what women today want is THE perfect relationship. (I know it doesn't exist... but all women will 'hope' that the 'honeymoon' period to lasts as long as it can, if not forever.) ANY guy have the potential to be a 'real man' in any woman's eyes, but he gotta convince the woman that they can be a real man who can take care of her. We're not talking about financial needs, but emotional needs too, in this day and age.

Guys who pamper themselves more than a girl is kinda looked down upon cos.. we women know how long it takes to get ready, and if a guy is even more high maintenance than her... it's kind of like a 'no, no'...

Guys who pamper themselves more than a girl is kinda looked down upon cos.. we women know how long it takes to get ready, and if a guy is even more high maintenance than her... it's kind of like a 'no, no'...

It's not that they don't want the man to look better than them when they go out then ?

ie. "Did you see Dave, he looked realy well, Tracy looked a bit rough though"